Angel Intelligence (Again...)

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

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Postby AyrYntake » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:48 am

Sorry, it's just that I had to make the idea clear after AuraTwilight asked. Maybe I'll start a new thread about it. Anyway:

Reichu wrote:If the Angels were simply INDUCING mind-trips, that would be one thing. If they are actually PARTICIPATING in the mind-trips, as they certainly seem to be, that's something else altogether.

That seems to be the point, doesn't it? I mean, we notice that Armisael seems to "give" Rei the ability to shed tears, when previously she was emotionless.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:48 pm

That seems to be the point, doesn't it? I mean, we notice that Armisael seems to "give" Rei the ability to shed tears, when previously she was emotionless.


I'm pretty sure that was Rei just having an epiphany. She ALWAYS had emotions, contrary to popular belief, she just doesn't know how to cope with them until about just that moment.
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Postby AyrYntake » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:57 pm

But she herself seemed to make a great deal out of her tears once she saw them...suggesting they were unfamiliar to herself as well
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Postby Ornette » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:21 pm

From Volume 3 of the Evangelion Manga, excerpt from an interview with Rei's VA.
Megumi Hayashibara wrote:It began when the director told me, "It's not that she doesn't have emotion, but that she doesn't know what it is." His technical request was that I should read my lines as flat as possible. But she's obviously not a machine; she's a human being, flesh and blood. It's a huge difference between "not having emotion" and "not knowing emotion." After all, she could develop feelings, once she learned...

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Were Angels really all that intelligent?

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Postby Legendary » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:22 pm

People often state that Leliel, Arael, Armisael, and occasionally others (such as Bardiel) were naturally sapient Angels. However, as a few have noted, this basically ruins the duality of Life/Knowledge, because with sapience Angels can do everything Lilin can, which kinda defeats the purpose of having them in the first place.

I therefore propose the following idea: Arael was simply attacking the Lilin equivalent of an S2 engine and wasn't probing at all; the mental shock caused the memories and feelings Asuka wanted to repress to rise to the surface. The scene of the various Asuka's saying things in other character's voices supports this idea; perhaps Arael only understood the ideas of itself, its mother, and a massive group of Other, so it naturally conflates one Lilin as another.

As for Leliel's and Armisael's ability to communicate, a simple solution is at hand: their taking the Fruit of Knowledge into themselves led them to become truly intelligent Gods, like Yui and Rei. Perhaps this even explains later behavior; Leliel stopped moving because of shock and curiosity, as might be expected of an entity that has suddenly had its mind expanded, and Armisael realized how alone it was in the world, leading to its attempt to figure out what was wrong with it by talking to Rei. It also began to try to recreate its fallen bretheren, using its new powers.

Any thoughts? Rebuttals? Is this truly crack-pot or is it at least a possibility in the Evangelion universe?

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Re: Were Angels really all that intelligent?

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Postby HENRCAST » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:16 pm

Legendary wrote:As for Leliel's and Armisael's ability to communicate, a simple solution is at hand: their taking the Fruit of Knowledge into themselves led them to become truly intelligent Gods, like Yui and Rei.


But didn't Armisael already have the ability to communicate before she made contact with Rei?

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Postby Legendary » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:21 pm

No, pretty sure Armisael had connected to Rei before it said anything.

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Postby NemZ » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:25 pm

It's an interesting idea, and I don't see anything particularly wrong with it... except for Kaworu, unless you think he had both fruits the whole time.
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Postby Legendary » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:28 pm

I don't think Kaworu had Life, to be completely honest; just Knowledge and a soul that was capable of generating a hugely powerful AT Field. He only ever floats around and shields himself, both of which are explainable by AT Field manipulation.

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Postby Ornette » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:50 pm

Merged with existing thread. And people, before you post, read over some of this thread as you may find some of the arguments rather cogent.

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Postby NemZ » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:59 pm

I want to know how Arael affected Kyoko, and if she had anything to do with the feeback Asuka received... an insane, soul-shattered mother putting herself back together with pieces stolen from her daughter's mind? Guilt for having hurt her might explain the 'shutting herself away' moment in 24.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:39 pm

I always figured that the Fruit of Knowledge was the power to make machines and technology and form societies and shape the world. While Angels can shape themselves, Lilin can shape the world. One who can do both is a God.

Kaworu obviously has the Fruit of Life, since he mentions how he'll live forever and crap and he's, you know, ADAM.

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Postby Legendary » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:42 pm

His SOUL is the distinctly female Adam who belongs in a body that's huge.

Kaworu himself is a boy who has been aging consistently since birth and shows no actual powers beyond strong control of his AT Field, something that Rei can also do. If Rei had the Fruit of Life in 24, then there's something significantly screwed up with EoE.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:47 pm

Kaworu is also seen, um...FLYING and telekinetically breaking locks and stuff. And he might possess powers that we simply don't see, considering his short battle air time. Also, Kaworu is apparently immortal, unlike Rei.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:56 pm

Ever since when was Kaworu "apparently immortal"? Who says that Rei can't fly or break locks telekinetically? Episode 24 shows that she's every bit as powerful as he is, and none of Kaworu's immortality saved him from losing his head.
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Postby Legendary » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:18 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:Kaworu is also seen, um...FLYING and telekinetically breaking locks and stuff. And he might possess powers that we simply don't see, considering his short battle air time. Also, Kaworu is apparently immortal, unlike Rei.


To rebut:

Me wrote:He only ever floats around and shields himself, both of which are explainable by AT Field manipulation.

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Postby VoidEater » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:16 pm

Legendary wrote:...so it naturally conflates one Lilin as another.


Probably views Lilim as a single entity with highly dispersed cells (at least until First Contact, when the experience of loneliness would come as something new).

Legendary wrote:Kaworu himself is a boy who has been aging consistently since birth...


...and may have been sitting in a fishtank for the past 14 years?

Legendary wrote:...and shows no actual powers beyond strong control of his AT Field, something that Rei can also do.


QFT.

It seems to me that the fruit of knowledge could be abstract thought, but is more likely the concept of the scientific method (hypothesis, test, refine) or it's result: technology. IOW, tool use.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:12 pm

Ever since when was Kaworu "apparently immortal"?


"I am destined to live forever."

Who says that Rei can't fly or break locks telekinetically? Episode 24 shows that she's every bit as powerful as he is, and none of Kaworu's immortality saved him from losing his head.


Her AT Field is every bit as powerful. But telekinesis doesn't seem to be an aspect of the AT Field, so Rei might not possess it.

He only ever floats around and shields himself, both of which are explainable by AT Field manipulation.


And telekinetically opens doors, and telekinetically controls Unit 02. And since when could people use the AT Field for propulsion?

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Postby Legendary » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:13 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:"I am destined to live forever."


Funny that someone destined to live forever is getting older. Plus, for all that destiny...

Her AT Field is every bit as powerful. But telekinesis doesn't seem to be an aspect of the AT Field, so Rei might not possess it.


No reason why it shouldn't be. The AT Field is fully capable of becoming a solid barrier, and is fully capable of being moved around by the right sort of entity (look at the Evas for an example of an entity without a SoL).

And telekinetically opens doors, and telekinetically controls Unit 02. And since when could people use the AT Field for propulsion?


Asuka's been able to blow things up with an AT Field alone. No Seed of Life there.

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Postby VoidEater » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:26 pm

^ Er...sidestepping what Fruit of Life actually is for a momnet (S2 or Eternal Life or ???):

We do know that Angels have the Fruit of Life, and we do see an angel start as an embryo and grow up.

We don't know that K's line "I've been destined to live forever...However, I am able to die" is in reference to his Fruit (if he has it) or something else.

Just as we don't know if Lilith herself has the Fruit of Knowledge, we don't know that Adam has the Fruit of Life. We know their offspring does.

Maybe I'm wrong.
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