Angel Intelligence (Again...)

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

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Postby Zuggy » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:20 pm

UrsusArctos wrote:Armisael does seem to be quite capable of understanding what Rei feels and that what Rei and herself feel are the same-

UrsusArctos wrote:Leliel, which one of the show's makers confirmed was the little Shinji in the Episode 16 psychoanalysis sequence.

I'm not sure whether this can be used as evidence for the Angels having the same type of consciousness as humans and to be capable of conversation. You can use a psychedelic substance and have an in-depth conversation of the sort Shinji and Rei have in those two scenes with a buddha made out of thousands of tiny jewelled cogs, yet from this experience you cannot claim that the plant you ingested has a level of intelligence and is capable of talking to you.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:25 pm

But it's not the plant that's actually doing the communication. It's simply providing the chemical factors that trigger the psychological experience. If the Angels were simply INDUCING mind-trips, that would be one thing. If they are actually PARTICIPATING in the mind-trips, as they certainly seem to be, that's something else altogether.
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Postby BobBQ » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:59 pm

[Not that I disagree with your fundamental point, BobBQ, but you've been going about this inappropriately and it can't continue.]

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:09 pm

I think the best way to say it isn't that the Angels lack intelligence, they just have a different way of applying it. Science may be the lilim's power but it's something the Angels have no use for. That doesn't make them stupid, they just don't need it. Nothing is beyond them as long as they can imagine it. At that point what use is science?
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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:57 pm

I wouldn't go so far as to state that they can accomplish anything they imagine, but either way, you make it sound like Angels could do science if they wanted. Which means they have all the potential the Lilim have and then some. In that case, what's the point of sending out Lilith-type Seeds? And if Fruit of Life = Fruit of Knowledge + Moar, then what's so bad about combining the two?
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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:29 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:you make it sound like Angels could do science if they wanted. Which means they have all the potential the Lilim have and then some. In that case, what's the point of sending out Lilith-type Seeds?

Well, one could say the same thing about science's potential to allow mortals to become "gods". This is theoretically possible even without some template provided by the FAR (e.g., a Seed or two).

So, consider this: We have two opposing types of human. They're fundamentally the same, with the same intrinsic potential. Although they begin at opposite sides of the continuum, both are capable of reaching the other side.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:13 am

I suppose that works. I'm satisfied.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:19 am

AuraTwilight wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to state that they can accomplish anything they imagine

Leliel became a the embodiment of an abstract mathematical theorem/alternate dimesion. I mean WTF, it was just a freaking theory. After that I don't doubt they could be whatever given a little creativity.

you make it sound like Angels could do science if they wanted

Perhaps if they were designed differently. Sicence isn't something they were ever supposed to need. Therefore it is of no consequence to them. That is their nature and there'd have to be a quite radical change to allow them to use it as it's a completely different mindset than they have, and most likely ever would have.

Reichu wrote:So, consider this: We have two opposing types of human. They're fundamentally the same, with the same intrinsic potential. Although they begin at opposite sides of the continuum, both are capable of reaching the other side.

I'd say it'd be far easier for the Lilim to pull that off. The Angels would need to alter there fundimental thought process to pull off that feat and look at how successful we are at doing that... Science may be man's way of playing God put why would Gods ever need to pretend?
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Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:51 am

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Leliel became a the embodiment of an abstract mathematical theorem/alternate dimesion. I mean WTF, it was just a freaking theory.

:hahaha:

Science may be man's way of playing God put why would Gods ever need to pretend?

Hmm, I'll need to think about that one...

I suppose the fundamental thought lurking in the back of my mind may not have been about science per se, but the sort of condition that produces it, i.e., a state of being finite and limited. If mortals seek to become unlimited, what might those who were born into "god-hood" seek? One often encounters the motif of super-human beings effectively "going backwards", intentionally. Would it be entirely beyond the realm of possibility for the Angels to yearn for limitations?
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Postby AsukaChan » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:12 am

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:I'd say it'd be far easier for the Lilim to pull that off. The Angels would need to alter there fundimental thought process to pull off that feat and look at how successful we are at doing that...


That made me chuckle, for some reason.

What is the fundamental thought process there again? If you're talking about how they stomp around destroying all opposition, then the Lilin definitely have that.

And I wouldn't say that we're good at changing that. We've come along through thousands of years and still can't alter the fundamental thought process. We have science, but a lot of the time we seem to only have science when it can one-up the other guy.

So if that's what you're referring to, I disagree. The Lilin have that very same thought process, but have some shiny new way of acting on it.

But I could be wrong, if I just didn't read into what you really meant.

Also, if you consider the definition of science, then the Angels have that too. Because science is simply the identification of phenomena, the investigation into it, and the theoretical explanation of it.
And under that definition, it could be said that the Angels' probing into the minds of the pilots is their own simple science. No, it's not as clean and systematic as our science and they aren't writing a thesis on it, but I could loosely label their actions as some sort of intentional investigation.

After all, Leliel wasn't using it as a weapon. It could be said that Arael and Armisael used their respective mindfucks as some sort of weapon (especially Arael, since it completely incapacitated Asuka), but Leliel already had her perfect defense. She didn't NEED to probe Shinji, but she did anyway. I saw that as a recognition of phenomena (in this case, a noticeable difference between Leliel's mind and Shinji's) and then a conscious investigation of it.

Does that not qualify as some kind of science?

I guess without a precise understanding of what the FoK is, it's hard to see the difference between Adam- and Lilith-based lifeforms beyond S2 and no-S2. And in that case, there's nothing wrong with a marriage of those two things, except that it's unnatural according to what the FAR intended.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:06 am

Reichu wrote:We have two opposing types of human. They're fundamentally the same, with the same intrinsic potential. Although they begin at opposite sides of the continuum, both are capable of reaching the other side.
:nod: That's what I gathered from this whole thing (see first post).

Reichu wrote:If mortals seek to become unlimited, what might those who were born into "god-hood" seek?
It's the polar spectrums of ultimate individuality/consciousness (Gods) VS. pure instinct and intuition (NO individuality/consciousness) and NGE, to some extent, is about a species (or two) caught in the middle. I very much like the idea that ties into the theme of loneliness, in that that's what individuality creates, and that's why gods/a god would seek to create other living beings. So it becomes this rather poignant paradox of gods wanting to be finite, limited, merely "one of the gang", and these frail, finite beings seeking immortality. Or, it could be summed up with "The Grass is Always Greener" principle.

Further, we can even apply this to the Angels who seek to remedy their loneliness in their latter incarnations. It's not inconceivable that the Angels are the embodiment of both concepts: Completely individual Gods, driven by instinct and unconsciousness.... hmmmm (now I've made myself think)...
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:26 pm

AsukaChan wrote:What is the fundamental thought process there again? If you're talking about how they stomp around destroying all opposition, then the Lilin definitely have that.

All the scientific knowledge we've built up was an attempt to compensate for our shortcomings. Shortcomings they don't have. They don't need food nor shelter, they have no predators, and they have incredible powers. They can do anything we've dreamed of. Virtually nothing is beyond them. As such they approach life differently from us. They simply can't think like he do because they haven't had thousands of years needing to compensate for weakness.

And I wouldn't say that we're good at changing that. We've come along through thousands of years and still can't alter the fundamental thought process.

So if that's what you're referring to, I disagree.

Admittedly I was taking a pot-shot at organized religion and polotics. People get sooo absorbed by it they think everyone else is wrong and can't be convinced otherwise. We aren't very good at looking past things we aren't comfortable with. The world being flat would be a humorous example of that.

Reichu wrote:I suppose the fundamental thought lurking in the back of my mind may not have been about science per se, but the sort of condition that produces it, i.e., a state of being finite and limited. If mortals seek to become unlimited, what might those who were born into "god-hood" seek? One often encounters the motif of super-human beings effectively "going backwards", intentionally. Would it be entirely beyond the realm of possibility for the Angels to yearn for limitations?

Sounds like the grass is greener syndrome. I for one never liked it. Imortality and perfection sound like a boring waste to me.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:39 pm

"The Grass is Always Greener" is indeed what I was getting at. The theme is so archaic it seems like one of those archetypes intrinsic to human nature. Since the Angels are human, it seems unreasonable to "put it past them".
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Postby LordofAnime5222 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:19 am

Intelligence is used to help complete a goal.The Angels seem to all be connected in how they attempt to complete their goal.One tries and fails so the next tries differently.Later they try to probe their enemy to aid their attempts.All intelligent beings use these same methods to complete their goals.Eventually these simple discoveries lead to bigger and bigger discoveries.They begin began to get more complex in their attempts every time from blowing everything away at first to hacking the very core of Nerv to even masquerading as their enemy to reach their goal.This proves their intelligent and that simple intelligence eventually evolves into the greatest tool one could ever imagine.
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Postby Sharaz Destler » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:20 pm

Please don't quote the entire post unless you have to.

I suppose you'd say it's almost the same thing with, say, some kinds of insects. Your house gets bugs in it over the summer, you get the RAID out, problem solved. Until next summer, when you need more and stronger RAID in order to get rid of them. It's not the RAID that's the problem--it's the fact that the bugs have experienced the threat and become a little bit stronger the next time around. Granted, this is a case of biological evolution rather than actual learning from past experience (as the Angels seem to be doing) but the point still stands.

Same thing here: with each progressive Angel attack, the EVA pilots/scientists/commanders are forced to stretch their respective intelligences just a little bit further in order to counteract the creativity with which the Angel makes his attack. However, it's not only creativity and intelligence we're talking about here...we're also talking about physical form here--a case of VERY well applied intelligence.
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Postby TemporalKnight » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:21 am

Reichu wrote:We have two opposing types of human. They're fundamentally the same, with the same intrinsic potential. Although they begin at opposite sides of the continuum, both are capable of reaching the other side.


Maybe that's why the two different Seeds were never supposed to land on the same planet. It wasn't that the FAR where worried they'd physically combine but that they would somehow manage to coexist and change both their ways of thinking. They could both meet in the middle and become even more powerful than the FAR.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. -Albert Einstein

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Postby AyrYntake » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:27 pm

Well, in practically every human-to-Angel dialogue in the series I've found (such scenes as Shinji-Leliel, Rei II-Armisael, Shinji-Kaworu), it always seems to be one side getting to know the other, doesn't it? Indeed, Kaworu seems to be carrying out his mission of Instrumentality out of love and pity for the human race (that's Anime Kaworu, not EMK).
The only exception to the "getting to know you" rule seems to be Asuka-Arael...or is it? After all, Arael's contact with EVA-02 may seem like an attack from our human perspective, but perhaps it was simply a form of connection, exploring Asuka's identity and therefore inadvertently doing psychological harm to her by uncovering her repressed memories, bringing her painful childhood experiences to the surface. Also bear in mind that Arael either made no attempt to "attack" Rei or simply had no effect on her whatsoever.
This brings to mind an old question...if Shinji had emerged in EVA-01 while Arael was in orbit, and Arael had attempted contact, would 3I have occurred just as it nearly did in the NPC of episode 23?
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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:28 pm

This brings to mind an old question...if Shinji had emerged in EVA-01 while Arael was in orbit, and Arael had attempted contact, would 3I have occurred just as it nearly did in the NPC of episode 23?


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Postby AyrYntake » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:49 pm

In the NPC of episode 23, 3I nearly starts because of contact between EVA-01 ("God") and an Angel. Hence why we see Rei+Armisael conglomerate embracing the head of EVA-01 and turning into the same face as seen on GNR in EoE. Of course, Rei decides to blow herself up before anything substantial happens.
I was wondering whether this would have happened with Arael had the sortie of EVA-01 been allowed, since Arael could make contact with EVA-01 long-distance.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:14 pm

I dunno if an Angel would really be able to trigger 3I with Eva-01 (Seele had some wacky methodology that would enable them to use her), but that's a bit off-topic here.
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