Angel Intelligence (Again...)

V · Postby V » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:29 am

SPLIT BLAH

yeah but inherently Angels can never be quite as smart as humans

CorporalChaos · Postby **CorporalChaos** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:41 am

V wrote:yeah but inherently Angels can never be quite as smart as humans

WTF, what about Kaworu?

YouTube · Postby **Reichu** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:55 am

V wrote:yeah but inherently Angels can never be quite as smart as humans

V · Postby V » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:37 pm

Kaworu is an Angel artificially slapped into a human body

He's not exactly "normal"

Postby **BobBQ** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:58 pm

V wrote:yeah but inherently Angels can never be quite as smart as humans

Shove off, you poser.

AuraTwilight · Postby **AuraTwilight** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:48 pm

I'm still personally confused about the "Angel Intelligence" thing myself. The way it seems to be described, Angels are supposed to be the immortal beasts of a sort, and Lilin the fragile genius human strain; Life and Knowledge, whee. This is all well and good, but then it becomes apparent that Angels can be pretty damned intelligent. So what the hell is it that Lilin have that the Angels don't? If the Angels are physically perfect and have human intelligence, what the hell makes Lilin so damn special that they must NEVAR be fused with Angels to create "God"?

RandomStuff · Postby **RandomStuff** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:58 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:I'm still personally confused about the "Angel Intelligence" thing myself. The way it seems to be described, Angels are supposed to be the immortal beasts of a sort, and Lilin the fragile genius human strain; Life and Knowledge, whee. This is all well and good, but then it becomes apparent that Angels can be pretty damned intelligent. So what the hell is it that Lilin have that the Angels don't? If the Angels are physically perfect and have human intelligence, what the hell makes Lilin so damn special that they must NEVAR be fused with Angels to create "God"?

Humans are capable of cooperation, love, compassion, kindness, invention. The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.

I think we'd need Osamu Tezuka if we really wanted to know what this place would look like. Unfortuanely, unless one of us is a necromancer, this represents a problem.

Postby **BobBQ** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:08 pm

RandomStuff wrote:The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.

Be warned, young padawan: the path of V is the path of 'tardedness.

AuraTwilight · Postby **AuraTwilight** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:37 pm

Humans are capable of cooperation, love, compassion, kindness, invention. The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.

The "human body" he's in is also Angelic. It would take more than a soul to do all the funky crap he does, and he also says that he and Eva "are of the same matter/body."

Human form, maybe, but probably not made out of the same stuff. Not wholly, anyway. Besides, I don't see why the body choice would give him all these new psychological aspects.

AsukaChan · Postby **AsukaChan** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:39 pm

Humans are capable of cooperation, love, compassion, kindness, invention. The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.

That doesn't make sense to me. Kaworu seemed to have much more of those things than Rei, even when Rei's soul became whole again (if we are assuming Rei's soul is partially in Zero). Rei was a total ice queen no matter what, and even if Kaworu didn't have a complete grasp of what he was trying to do, he was still much more natural. So, by comparison, Kaworu seemed to be much better at those things that are supposed to be unique to humans.

I think emotion is an indicator of intelligence, and the Angels could certainly feel loneliness.

AuraTwilight · Postby **AuraTwilight** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:02 am

AsukaChan wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:Humans are capable of cooperation, love, compassion, kindness, invention. The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.

That doesn't make sense to me. Kaworu seemed to have much more of those things than Rei, even when Rei's soul became whole again (if we are assuming Rei's soul is partially in Zero). Rei was a total ice queen no matter what, and even if Kaworu didn't have a complete grasp of what he was trying to do, he was still much more natural. So, by comparison, Kaworu seemed to be much better at those things that are supposed to be unique to humans.

I think emotion is an indicator of intelligence, and the Angels could certainly feel loneliness.

You should probably edit your quote, I'm not the one who said that. :P

But otherwise, yea, I agree. Kaworu seems so in synch with Lilim behavior because he was raised as such, not by what body he was put in. Rei is as Lilim as you can GET and she was raised by Gendo and company to have little self esteem and social skills, treated, and taught to see herself as, subhuman.

AsukaChan · Postby **AsukaChan** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:34 am

Sorry. XD

I typed it on my phone and just yoinked it off someone else's post. I'm not surprised I messed up. XD

Postby **UrsusArctos** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:27 am

All right: I thought I'd post it on this thread while I'm at it (I was thinking on adding a T&A on "Fruit of Knowledge" while I'm still at it somewhat)

If Angels are supposed to have the "Fruit of Life", what is the "Fruit of Knowledge"? We know the FoL is the S2 engine, the FoK remains a mystery.

And no, Angels aren't incapable of intelligence. Sachiel's intelligence is upgraded on the fly after that N2 hit, and Armisael is certainly very close to, if not equal to a human in intelligence.

I think the Fruit of Knowledge might be quite simply, knowledge of how another person feels. Armisael does seem to be quite capable of understanding what Rei feels and that what Rei and herself feel are the same- but could Armisael be considered as lacking empathy? Is the human gift- the Fruit of Knowledge- simply the ability to understand, deep down, how others actually feel?

After all, the nature of human and Angel A.T. Fields mirrors the same, doesn't it? Humans have psychological barriers between each other, and only humans can break through human pyschological barriers with their understanding. Angels have physical barriers- and they can neutralize them with their own physical power. The Seed of Life(S2) may not be directly related to how the Angels can generate an ATF but the relation does hold, doesn't it?

And as far as empathy is concerned, intelligence isn't the only thing that matters. Understanding matters more.

Anonymous_Evafan · Postby **Anonymous_Evafan** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:56 am

UrsusArctos wrote:And no, Angels aren't incapable of intelligence. Sachiel's intelligence is upgraded on the fly after that N2 hit, and Armisael is certainly very close to, if not equal to a human in intelligence.

Don't forget Ireul, the living super-computer that hacked and almost blew up NERV.

Postby **UrsusArctos** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:00 am

How could I forget the Andromeda Angel itself? >_<

Also, Leliel, which one of the show's makers confirmed was the little Shinji in the Episode 16 psychoanalysis sequence.

Eva Yojimbo · Postby **Eva Yojimbo** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:02 am

AuraTwilight wrote:The way it seems to be described, Angels are supposed to be the immortal beasts of a sort, and Lilin the fragile genius human strain; Life and Knowledge, whee. This is all well and good, but then it becomes apparent that Angels can be pretty damned intelligent.

That's the idea. It's another switch (this time, somewhat subtle) that Anno pulls that there's this obvious distinction between Angels and Humans that later becomes not quite so clear. It brings into question the idea of sentience VS consciousness and whether the Angels have merely the former or also the latter. A lot is revealed through Kaworu, and I'm sorry V, but your argument of him being in human form is pointless because he's still Adam (mother of the angels) and made of PWM. He's as Angel as any Angel was.

What one might could say is that the difference is that humans have been able to develop intelligence/consciousness over a long period, and their "fruit of knowledge" is a metaphorical fruit that's been reaped through time. While the angels are merely born and left to survive on their own with this tremendous natural resource (the S2 engine) that bucks the need for intelligence/consciousness. But sometimes life throws a curve - like these two diametrically opposed life-forms being on the same planet. This forces both into a situation where they're forced to change, adapt, and evolve on the spot... this has implications that impact both directly on the narrative and far beyond it, like how the Angels have to develop intelligence to combat us, and we have to combat our own unconscious in order to deal with them. The idea is to highlight both the fundamental differences and similarities.

To directly answer the question: YES the Angels atleast have the capacity for intelligence as seen by their various actions that can't completely be attributed to naked instinct. Whether they are actually conscious or not would have to be answered/discussed by more knowledgeable folks than myself, but I'd guess "no, but they're getting there".

V · Postby V » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:17 pm

BobBQ wrote:
RandomStuff wrote:The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.

Be warned, young padawan: the path of V is the path of 'tardedness.

EDIT: Bob if you dont' say something constructive in support of your own beliefs, we have no idea if they're actually correct or not. Please contribute constructively.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:The way it seems to be described, Angels are supposed to be the immortal beasts of a sort, and Lilin the fragile genius human strain; Life and Knowledge, whee. This is all well and good, but then it becomes apparent that Angels can be pretty damned intelligent.
That's the idea. It's another switch (this time, somewhat subtle) that Anno pulls that there's this obvious distinction between Angels and Humans that later becomes not quite so clear. It brings into question the idea of sentience VS consciousness and whether the Angels have merely the former or also the latter. A lot is revealed through Kaworu, and I'm sorry V, but your argument of him being in human form is pointless because he's still Adam (mother of the angels) and made of PWM. He's as Angel as any Angel was.

What one might could say is that the difference is that humans have been able to develop intelligence/consciousness over a long period, and their "fruit of knowledge" is a metaphorical fruit that's been reaped through time. While the angels are merely born and left to survive on their own with this tremendous natural resource (the S2 engine) that bucks the need for intelligence/consciousness. But sometimes life throws a curve - like these two diametrically opposed life-forms being on the same planet. This forces both into a situation where they're forced to change, adapt, and evolve on the spot... this has implications that impact both directly on the narrative and far beyond it, like how the Angels have to develop intelligence to combat us, and we have to combat our own unconscious in order to deal with them. The idea is to highlight both the fundamental differences and similarities.

To directly answer the question: YES the Angels atleast have the capacity for intelligence as seen by their various actions that can't completely be attributed to naked instinct. Whether they are actually conscious or not would have to be answered/discussed by more knowledgeable folks than myself, but I'd guess "no, but they're getting there".

Actually I agree with Yojimbo fully: inherently, Humans will "master science and technology" as they have the Fruit of Knowledge and will always be "smarter than" the Angels. But I've always been kind of interested in how the Angels ARE NOT "rampaging monsters" but fairly intelligent, even Sachiel, etc.

I did not create a new thread to start arguing that "Angels aren't intelligent". I actually think they kind of are. I posted "Angels aren't that intelligent" in clipped form in another thread; you should not have branched this off into another thread without me because I never intended it that way, and it's effectively a straw-man technique by quoting what was never meant to be a full arguement

Nonetheless, due to the Fruit of Knowledge and "Science is Man's strength", I still think "yeah but inherently Angels can never be quite as smart as humans"

And I'm not sure if Adam was originally as smart as Kaworu is. And since when are we so sure that Kaworu is made of Particle-wave matter?

But otherwise, yea, I agree. Kaworu seems so in synch with Lilim behavior because he was raised as such, not by what body he was put in. Rei is as Lilim as you can GET and she was raised by Gendo and company to have little self esteem and social skills, treated, and taught to see herself as, subhuman.

The way I see it, Rei isn't "used" having her full range of emotions back, but she starts to understand them (breaking Gendo's glasses, ultimately siding with Shinji over Gendo) while Kaworu IS used to having them and while..."naive" to a degree, is fairly functional in comparison.

YouTube · Postby **Reichu** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:28 pm

V wrote:PLEASE [say] exactly what your own stance on issues is, which you haven't exactly made clear. For all I know you might end up converting me to your own theories. Hurling insults will not result in further understanding.

I actually agree with this.

I did not create a new thread to start arguing that "Angels aren't intelligent". I actually think they kind of are. I posted "Angels aren't that intelligent" in clipped form in another thread; you should not have branched this off into another thread without me because I never intended it that way, and it's effectively a straw-man technique by quoting what was never meant to be a full arguement

The language used to express an opinion is treated as a gateway to one's attitudes. You chronically express a stance implying a sort of "Lilincentrism", reminiscent of the sort of anthropocentric attitude that used to almost universally pervade zoology, wherein any species that didn't match up to our standards or concept of intelligence was spoken of in intrinsically demeaning terms: essentially, everything else was "lesser". This is really rather counterproductive, since "intelligence" is extremely relative, and biases tend to saturate any attempt to measure it. There are better ways to approach these things.

As for "I shouldn't have started a new thread": People had already replied to your claim. All I did was split off a tangent.

BTW, please stop applying bold formatting to entire passages, re-read the forum rules regarding quoting, and write using structured paragraphs that are easy to follow. I'm serious.

@Yojimbo: The Fruit of Knowledge is, I'd say, decidedly implied to have more to do with science ("the power of man") than anything else, but I'm not at liberty to dig out relevant threads at the moment. Should be easy enough to find, though.

@Thread: I wouldn't consider Kaworu entirely relevant to this discussion, since he's basically the incarnation of a Seed of Life. We're more interested in Adam's natural offspring here.

AuraTwilight · Postby **AuraTwilight** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:39 pm

I think the Fruit of Knowledge might be quite simply, knowledge of how another person feels. Armisael does seem to be quite capable of understanding what Rei feels and that what Rei and herself feel are the same- but could Armisael be considered as lacking empathy? Is the human gift- the Fruit of Knowledge- simply the ability to understand, deep down, how others actually feel?

Doesn't that go against the existential point of Evangelion's conclusion?

Asuka wrote:Of course no one understands you! No one could EVER understand you.

Or is this Shinji feeding himself delusions or something?

And I'm not sure if Adam was originally as smart as Kaworu is. And since when are we so sure that Kaworu is made of Particle-wave matter?

Kaworu wrote:Eva and I are of the same matter.

How's that?

Eva Yojimbo · Postby **Eva Yojimbo** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 pm

Reichu wrote:@Yojimbo: The Fruit of Knowledge is, I'd say, decidedly implied to have more to do with science ("the power of man") than anything else, but I'm not at liberty to dig out relevant threads at the moment. Should be easy enough to find, though.

Well, that's basically what I said (though I took it in a more metaphoric manner). Science is the ultimate achievement (the metaphoric "fruit") of man's knowledge and what it has come to define itself by. NGE certainly speaks strongly on this theme... though 2001 probably did it better.

Angel Intelligence (Again...)

Angel Intelligence (Again...)

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