Angel Souls

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

Guy
Embryo
Posts: 8
Joined: Mar 03, 2008

Angel Souls

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Guy » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:04 am

Im not sure what the reigning theory on why all the angels need to die before human instrumentality is. But i was thinking about it today while looking through the evageek wiki. Sorry if this is what is normally accepted already.....

I was thinking that since instrumentality is the forbidden union of knowledge and life i.e Adam and Lillith why doesn't Gendo just do the go ahead and finish of what he wanted to do right when he got Adam. I know about the dead sea scroll prophecies and all that. But I mean the logical reason for all the angels having to be killed...or am i just thinking to hard into this? So if we consider Armisael having all the souls from the previous angels using the angel tower as proof could it mean that the angel souls pass over from one angel to the other until they all joined with Kaowru eventually joining right back to Adam after his death. Is it that instrumentality cant happen without Adam going back to the state before he spread his souls around?

Once again sorry if this is completely ridonkulous or already an acceped theory... :boingy:

Sachi
Oh Daddy!
Oh Daddy!
User avatar
Age: 27
Posts: 10132
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Location: Hollywoo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sachi » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:19 am

Nice first post.

Gendo was still following SEELE's plans for Instrumentality. Like them, he was still preparing for it. But even SEELE had to push up the schedule to fit their desires. In EoE, I'm sure Gendo had to push his up during the attack. Getting rid of the Angels is a way to assure SEELE of their plan.

Before I go off on a rant because I am tired. To put it all simply, If Gendo had commenced with 3I after episode 8, there would've been no series.

I'll continue with this tomorrow.
- Sachi

I host the discord server for the EvaGeeks forums. Join us! https://discord.gg/cWq9XGTjxd

BobBQ
Dyskolos
Dyskolos
User avatar
Posts: 4486
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Location: Somewhere out there
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BobBQ » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:33 am

Plot contrivance.

V
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 2000
Joined: Feb 14, 2007
Location: @the end of the universe

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby V » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:16 am

I don't think Armisael inherited the souls of the other Angels; it's just that "Instrumentality won't work if any Angels are still alive"
Who is "Codename V"?....
I'm pleased to meet you and I hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game...so catch me if you can!! (0:50)
"Superior ability breeds superior ambition" -- Spock, Star Trek TOS episode 1.24 "Space Seed"
You say you say you want a REvolution?...
-->It was only after I lost everything, that I realized: I was free to do anything...

Szmitten
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
Posts: 383
Joined: Sep 06, 2006

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Szmitten » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:44 pm

I assumed it was a way to make sure the Angels wouldn't inherit the Earth and threaten the defenseless tang.

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:17 pm

The Tang isn't really important. It's the agglutinated wad of souls, or whatever the sum total of TEH ULTIMAET BEING is, that would be under concern.

Also, V: Moar love to the pet theories! Loooove!
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Sachi
Oh Daddy!
Oh Daddy!
User avatar
Age: 27
Posts: 10132
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Location: Hollywoo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sachi » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:31 pm

SEELE just felt that they needed to follow the agenda listed on the Dead Sea Scrolls in order to achieve their plans. Even with unexpected occurrences, as the Iruel attack and losing the Lance during the Arael attack, SEELE still followed their agenda.
Gendo, simply, mimicked their agenda in order to fit his desires. It's not known when Gendo would've started 3I on his own, but he did seem to let that be within Liliths/Rei's choice. (When Rei woke up, stared at the moon, and left straight for Nerv).
Basically, Lilith decided when she wanted 3I to happen. Which is presumably when all the Angels were dead. Actually, now that I think about it....

SEELE used Unit-01 was their medium for 3I. Gendo used Adam and Lilith. Would Unit-01 have worked by itself? Split perhaps, or shall Reichu just tell me right here and now?
- Sachi

I host the discord server for the EvaGeeks forums. Join us! https://discord.gg/cWq9XGTjxd

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:54 pm

Sachiel_13 wrote:SEELE just felt that they needed to follow the agenda listed on the Dead Sea Scrolls <snip>

It's clearly a very "flexible" agenda...

Gendo, simply, mimicked their agenda in order to fit his desires.

He had to pretend to be acting in Seele's interests (at least up to the very end), after all... Based on his instrumental (har har) role in getting the HIP up and running, he may have been to first one to extract a workable "script" out of the scrolls, though it would have come in two flavors: (1) Just For You, Kiely, and (2) similar-enough-I-can-get-away-with-perfidy version a.k.a. The Gendo Edition.

SEELE used Unit-01 was their medium for 3I. Gendo used Adam and Lilith. Would Unit-01 have worked by itself? Split perhaps, or shall Reichu just tell me right here and now?

Not exactly sure what you mean, "worked by itself". Seele weren't planning on involving Adam or Lilith at all (at least, in the case of the latter, not directly), if that counts.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Sachi
Oh Daddy!
Oh Daddy!
User avatar
Age: 27
Posts: 10132
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Location: Hollywoo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sachi » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:14 pm

Reichu wrote:
SEELE used Unit-01 was their medium for 3I. Gendo used Adam and Lilith. Would Unit-01 have worked by itself? Split perhaps, or shall Reichu just tell me right here and now?

Not exactly sure what you mean, "worked by itself". Seele weren't planning on involving Adam or Lilith at all (at least, in the case of the latter, not directly), if that counts.

Yeah, but would Unit-01 have succeeded in causing 3I by itself, since cleary it was Lilith/Adam that made everybody tang.
- Sachi

I host the discord server for the EvaGeeks forums. Join us! https://discord.gg/cWq9XGTjxd

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:18 pm

Assuming (A) Seele indeed knew what they were doing, (B) Yui cooperated, and (C) nobody else interfered -- presumably it would have indeed worked, though if you want to dwell into "how" or any further detail, I would recommend some kind of bump or a new thread.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Sachi
Oh Daddy!
Oh Daddy!
User avatar
Age: 27
Posts: 10132
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Location: Hollywoo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sachi » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:32 pm

Alrighty, Split.

Reichu wrote:
Sachiel_13 wrote:SEELE just felt that they needed to follow the agenda listed on the Dead Sea Scrolls <snip>

It's clearly a very "flexible" agenda...

Yes very. Which could point to question how accurate the scrolls actually were.

He had to pretend to be acting in Seele's interests (at least up to the very end), after all... Based on his instrumental (har har) role in getting the HIP up and running, he may have been to first one to extract a workable "script" out of the scrolls, though it would have come in two flavors: (1) Just For You, Kiely, and (2) similar-enough-I-can-get-away-with-perfidy version a.k.a. The Gendo Edition.

Agreed.
- Sachi

I host the discord server for the EvaGeeks forums. Join us! https://discord.gg/cWq9XGTjxd

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:49 pm

Sachiel_13 wrote:Which could point to question how accurate the scrolls actually were.

The better question is probably "what the hell are the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls? -- SERIOUSLY", but I don't think a single satisfactory answer actually exists. But there's probably a thread on this already.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

V
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 2000
Joined: Feb 14, 2007
Location: @the end of the universe

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby V » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:07 pm

I thought we decided "they're a guide written by the First Ancestral Race"....though what "form" this guide actually takes (Carven tablets? A computer?) is unknown.
Who is "Codename V"?....
I'm pleased to meet you and I hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game...so catch me if you can!! (0:50)
"Superior ability breeds superior ambition" -- Spock, Star Trek TOS episode 1.24 "Space Seed"
You say you say you want a REvolution?...
-->It was only after I lost everything, that I realized: I was free to do anything...

BobBQ
Dyskolos
Dyskolos
User avatar
Posts: 4486
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Location: Somewhere out there
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BobBQ » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:18 am

Psychedelic doodling by batty Kabbalists living in the West Bank circa 40 CE.

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:30 am

You forgot the disclaimer about heavy-handed fanwanking, Natchan.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

universalperson
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec 17, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby universalperson » Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:30 am

WHa V and Bob said, plus add "Quantum Magic".
Avatar courtesy of RetroRainbow, and the Eva art book.

BobBQ
Dyskolos
Dyskolos
User avatar
Posts: 4486
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Location: Somewhere out there
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BobBQ » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:14 am

Reichu wrote:You forgot the disclaimer about heavy-handed fanwanking, Natchan.

But then we're back to plot contrivance and that isn't any fun now, is it?

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

Re: Angel Souls

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:35 am

:thumbsup: to what Reichu said about Gendo following Seele's plans.

Guy wrote:Im not sure what the reigning theory on why all the angels need to die before human instrumentality is.
I always assumed it had something to do with needing them out of the way before they could execute their plans. That, and it's likely Seele had something planned with Kaworu/Adam. We also know Seele needed time to complete the Eva series. So there's a lot of factors.

Guy wrote:I was thinking that since instrumentality is the forbidden union of knowledge and life i.e Adam and Lillith why doesn't Gendo just do the go ahead and finish of what he wanted to do right when he got Adam. :
He needed Adam's soul - the soul left behind after Kaworu died - to fuse with the embryo in his hand. No soul, no "forbidden union".

BTW, here's some quick definitions:

3rd Impact: Using an S2 and a massive Anti AT Field to wipe out AT Fields on Earth (thus, releasing souls from their vessels).

Instrumentality: 3rd Impact + Lilith or a suitable substitute (Shogouki) to absorb/collect/gather (whatever the correct term is) the souls into Lilith's Egg/Black Moon where they all become a single, collective, "perfect" being.

For the former, they needed an S2 or multiple S2s (in the case of the MPEs) in order to execute such a plan. For the latter they needed, well, just what I said. There are some bits that aren't clear as to exactly how this works, but that's the gist of it.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests