The "Sequel Theory" Thread

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

Reichu
Death True True
Death True True
User avatar
Posts: 23827
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Starship Eva
Gender: Female
Contact:

Postby Reichu » Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:51 pm

The Imperialist wrote:Yes, Kaworu WAS somewhat over-familiar with Shinji (in the series).

Misato doesn't go so far as taking Shinji to the bath shortly after meeting him, though she arguably snuggles up rather quickly herself. She and Kaworu even introduce themselves to Shinji in fairly similar ways.

So I'm not sure this is necessarily something about Kaworu we need to read insidious things into.

Also, the Sequel theory being proven correct is going to be a huge advantage to my Wagner theory, but never mind.

:um-no:

Ursus wrote:AET, thank you and welcome to the forums.

He's actually posted before, but... lol dreamhost.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
Father Brother Lover Mother (AO3, FF.net)
The path to an alternate Third Impact has reached stage 19 (5/22)!

Zuggy
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 1716
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Location: UK
Contact:

Postby Zuggy » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:36 am

Reichu wrote:She and Kaworu even introduce themselves to Shinji in fairly similar ways.

.......

Are you ever going to finish that KKKK thread?

Reichu
Death True True
Death True True
User avatar
Posts: 23827
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Starship Eva
Gender: Female
Contact:

Postby Reichu » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:51 am

Zugzwang wrote:Are you ever going to finish that KKKK thread?

Unless thoroughly persuaded otherwise: no.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
Father Brother Lover Mother (AO3, FF.net)
The path to an alternate Third Impact has reached stage 19 (5/22)!

cat42
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1243
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Location: The editing room
Contact:

Postby cat42 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:59 pm

The Imperialist wrote:Well, he is saying “I will be looking forward to meeting you, Shinji-kun”, and from my Japanese sense, the ‘honne’ (the real meaning, which you have to read between the lines) of this seems to imply “again”, as usually, you will only say their name after the “looking forward” business, if you knew them already, as usually, you won’t say their name until you are familiar with the person. But for purposes, it DOESN’T say again. Just an implication that Kaworu IS meeting Shinji again, and seems to know the outcome already…


Do you think a better translation might be "I can't wait to see you, Ikari Shinji-kun." then?
It's familiar, implies that they've met before, but doesn't necessarily mean that they have.
"...I follow you both online and offline, and I am a 4-dimensional manifestation of absolute evil..." - Reichu-tachi
"In all cases, eventually it becomes necessary to decide to 'deliberately betray the fans.'" - Yoji Enokido
I believe in the director of Eva 1.11.

The Imperialist
Pilot
Pilot
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 2137
Joined: Sep 08, 2007
Location: The Evil Lair of Doom, my room

Postby The Imperialist » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:34 pm

As I said, it is only an implication of Kaworu actualy knwing Shinji intimately, and it is more towards "I am looking forward" as that way, the implicaiton is stressed on the esame level as the original, and it isn't on the lines of 'matteru'. Again, it is the implication of the 'honne' of the 'tatemae' sentence, as most people should know, Japanese ways of communicating is EXTREMELY subtle.
I feel old

evilhead008
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 82
Joined: Jan 07, 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby evilhead008 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:18 pm

Well, he is saying “I will be looking forward to meeting you, Shinji-kun”, and from my Japanese sense, the ‘honne’ (the real meaning, which you have to read between the lines) of this seems to imply “again”, as usually, you will only say their name after the “looking forward” business, if you knew them already, as usually, you won’t say their name until you are familiar with the person. But for purposes, it DOESN’T say again. Just an implication that Kaworu IS meeting Shinji again, and seems to know the outcome already…


Well then, it just seems to say that...

Kaworu's excited to meet Shinji. He also seems to at least have a vague idea of who he is, or has heard of him. That pretty much indicates something of a senario like this...

A. Kaworu knows Shinji from some point in the past.
B. Kaworu has heard of Shinji from somebody.
C. Kaworu has been informed of who Shinji is.
D. Kaworu already knows Shinji.

So, he's familiar with him in some way, and is anxious to meet him (the again seems to be implied).

Sorry if that just took up space and didn't accomplish anything; to me, for me, I'm happy with the knowledge that Kaworu at least vaguely knows him this time around.

Reichu
Death True True
Death True True
User avatar
Posts: 23827
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Starship Eva
Gender: Female
Contact:

Postby Reichu » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:20 pm

OH! perils of overanalysis.

I'm not exactly one to talk, but it needed to be said. Badly.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
Father Brother Lover Mother (AO3, FF.net)
The path to an alternate Third Impact has reached stage 19 (5/22)!

defiate
Lilith
User avatar
Posts: 122
Joined: Nov 07, 2005

Postby defiate » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:35 pm

Just watched the film tonight, and am pretty convinced this is a sequel. I've read the entire thread so far and there are flaws I'd like to point out in the nay-sayer's arguments (Not going to overanalyze or fanwank. This is based on logic):

Taken straight from the source (listening and typing): at the very end, Kaworu says, "また三番目とはね。変わらないな君は。会えるときは楽しみだよ、碇シンジ君。" Roughly translated into English: "The third [child] again. You never change. I look forward to the time I could meet you, Ikari Shinji."

For the record, I speak Japanese and have translated crap here a long time ago (evangelion chronicles, found here: [url]http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1390&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0[/url])

First, let’s examine the translation. If you only looked at "You [Shinji] never change. I look forward to the time I could meet you, Ikari Shinji", and only that part, it's understandable that you wouldn't put stock into the sequel theory-- after all none of it is indicative of a previous Shinji that the theory implies. Any explanation the sequel-theorists put forth could easily be dispelled by plausible alternative explanations (such as the "they met as kids explanation"). That all changes if you add in the first sentence, "The third [children] again/また三番目とはね".

The "[children]" I slipped into the translation is implied in the original Japanese, since the use 番目 following a number (e.g. 三) always refers to a pilot child in the world of Eva. It implies that Shinji had been the third child before this time, and that "before" is something that Kaworu has knowledge of.

The most plausible and probable explanation as to why Kaworu said something like that would be that Kaworu has seen Shinji as the third children sometime in the past.

As it is established that this is Shinji's first time in an Eva in this movie/universe, and that the pilot selecting agency (Marduk in the old series) selected Shinji as the third children recently relative to Kaworu's moon awakening, it is impossible that Kaworu is referring to the current Shinji when he says "again". Therefore he must be referring to a past Shinji-- a past Shinji who also was a third children.

The rest is obvious.

*****

Another thing is the image put up by Otakucrave, shown at the start of the movie where they’re setting up the overall scene:

Image

The size and posture of the outline is identical to that of the dead harpies at the end of EoE. Stuff like that just doesn’t happen coincidentally. If you see RoE as an alternate universe and not a sequel, there just isn’t any plausible explanation. The only things that could make that kind of outline are the Angels and Evas. Adam (presumed) is on the moon and Lilith is underground, and it doesn’t seem that either could make that outline/posture. Neither Eva 00 or Eva 01 should have been on the surface before the first encounter in the movie, and even if they were how likely is it that they fell down in that pose, and couldn’t get up, warranting an outline?

The outline could only be explained by the harpy theory, and thus the sequel theory.

*****

Other evidence, though not as conclusive as the above two, include:

The red sea/red water (2I explanation very plausible, but notice the lack of mention of 2I in the movie. None at all. Doesn’t that strike you as odd?)

Streak of blood on the moon

*****

What I’m really curious about is the series of coffins on the moon base next to Adam. Kaworu gets out of one of them. Who’s not to say that there’s a whole bunch of empty Kaworu shells in each of those?
Last edited by defiate on Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

NAveryW
Insect Politician
Insect Politician
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 5063
Joined: Dec 21, 2006

Postby NAveryW » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:24 am

My thought a while back that I don't think I ever posted was that there was definitely something that happened "before", but perhaps that "before" was not NGE. Perhaps it was something similar to NGE without it being exactly like the show. Maybe it's Rebuild that already happened.
"Today?... hmm... today... right... Um... I'm just gonna wing it." -Guess who

Nephilim
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Posts: 284
Joined: Jun 21, 2004
Location: ARAUCANIA, CHILE
Contact:

Postby Nephilim » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:50 am

About the marking of the sollouhette, we should really wait if there is an actual answer. Because there are various alternatives:
1) its the shape of an eva series
2) its te shape of other eva that fought before
3) i don't know...
*insert cool signature here*

Reichu
Death True True
Death True True
User avatar
Posts: 23827
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Starship Eva
Gender: Female
Contact:

Postby Reichu » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:29 am

There are multiple explanations for every item, and a considerable absence of data.

No good scienti--, er, I mean, Eva geek-nerd-creature could put any substantial amount of faith in the sequel thing at this time. In this I remain adamant.

:lights bandwagon on fire again:
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
Father Brother Lover Mother (AO3, FF.net)
The path to an alternate Third Impact has reached stage 19 (5/22)!

Nephilim
Shamshel
Shamshel
User avatar
Posts: 284
Joined: Jun 21, 2004
Location: ARAUCANIA, CHILE
Contact:

Postby Nephilim » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:31 am

Yeah, but i still hope that they are conected, and not just a new version.

We'll have to se at the end of the series to find out :smirk:
*insert cool signature here*

AnonymousEvaTranslator
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 17
Joined: Jan 21, 2008
Location: On the Moon, makin' out w

Postby AnonymousEvaTranslator » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:07 am

defiate wrote:The red sea/red water (2I explanation very plausible, but notice the lack of mention of 2I in the movie. None at all. Doesn’t that strike you as odd?)


Maya mentions the Second Impact when looking out of the airplane window. Also at the end of EOE weren't the dead MP Evas standing upright on the ground, rather than laying down?

And "-番目" is used in the film to refer to angels as well as the pilots. Until we figure out what the third angel is, or if Adam really isn't the thing on the moon, or what's at Nerv isn't really Lilith etc... I wouldn't assume he's talking about Shinji. Besides, I always assumed the line "変わらないな君は," referred to Seele/Keel, but that's just me.

On another point, doesn't it strike anyone as odd that a giant, what looks like Adam, is actually on the moon? And how exactly is anyone on the moon, Kaworu included? I mean in the series, when Rei tossed the Spear of Longinus, when it went floating above the moon, they pretty much said it was impossible to recover. Now they're having big pow-wows up there.
BALLSBALLSBALLS. Balls of steel...

fadingreminder
Sandalphon
Sandalphon
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 524
Joined: Nov 14, 2005

Postby fadingreminder » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:50 am

...I have to retain that I think Rebuild being a sequel is completely bollocks. If I'm wrong and it turns out that it is, I'll gladly eat my helping of crow and hear the endless "I told you so"s, but for now, I just don't dig into that idea.

The size and posture of the outline is identical to that of the dead harpies at the end of EoE. Neither Eva 00 or Eva 01 should have been on the surface before the first encounter in the movie, and even if they were how likely is it that they fell down in that pose, and couldn’t get up, warranting an outline?


To the first part, regarding the same outline as the Harpies, I suppose I agree... I think it's just a throwback to the original though and nothing more. As far as no other Eva being on the surface, we can't say that for sure yet. Sachiel was the fourth Angel in this continuity, right? Rei potentially could have had to fight an unknown third Angel, this could leave room for her Eva to fall in this pose or for the Angel to die there if it were humanoid... This takes some fanwankery, sure, but what doesn't?

I'm also not fond of the idea about a "past" Shinji... The idea of the same exact events happening again in the future are just too cliche for me to grasp.

I'm going to hold the ground I did last time though... In EoE Yui took off into space, I doubt she'd come back again with nobody remembering her and I especially doubt that she would come back at all. I also can't accept that this is all supposed to happen sometime AFTER EoE as I can't accept that everyone would have "amnesia" or something, besides that, the original Evas (excluding Sho) were all destroyed and I can't imagine getting the original souls would be a task that would be possible, then again, I suppose Eva is all about the suspension of possibility...

I can't argue with Kaworu's line either except to reiterate that it's "oooh, cryptic stuff!" All I can say to that though is in regards to the possibility that Kaworu knows of Shinji or has heard of Shinji... After Shinji killed two Angels with little-to-no training with an Eva, I'm sure SEELE would've mentioned it, Kaworu would have had to have heard about that. Still that "...third again..." thing, that's weird...

Reichu
Death True True
Death True True
User avatar
Posts: 23827
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Starship Eva
Gender: Female
Contact:

Postby Reichu » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:37 am

AnonymousEvaTranslator wrote:Also at the end of EOE weren't the dead MP Evas standing upright on the ground, rather than laying down?

The two we saw were emerging out of the ocean... but same thing, I suppose.

And "-番目" is used in the film to refer to angels as well as the pilots. ... Besides, I always assumed the line "変わらないな君は," referred to Seele/Keel, but that's just me.

But Kiel's the First of Seele, not the Third. Why do you think it's referring to him?

Since Kaworu says the line after he turns around to look at the giant, I gotta wonder about the "Third Angel" thing.

On another point, doesn't it strike anyone as odd that a giant, what looks like Adam

I thought it looked like Lilith, myself, not Adam. True, we never get a good look at Adam in the original, but... I'm sort of skeptical...

And how exactly is anyone on the moon, Kaworu included?

かこいさ。
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
Father Brother Lover Mother (AO3, FF.net)
The path to an alternate Third Impact has reached stage 19 (5/22)!

fadingreminder
Sandalphon
Sandalphon
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 524
Joined: Nov 14, 2005

Postby fadingreminder » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:42 am

AnonymousEvaTranslator wrote:And how exactly is anyone on the moon, Kaworu included?
Never before has "moonspeak" been so literal, maybe Rebuild is a prequel to the birth of the Japanese language(!)

AnonymousEvaTranslator
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 17
Joined: Jan 21, 2008
Location: On the Moon, makin' out w

Postby AnonymousEvaTranslator » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:11 pm

Reichu wrote:But Kiel's the First of Seele, not the Third. Why do you think it's referring to him?


More like I think he's saying, "The third again, huh... You (Seele guys/Keel) never change. I look forward to meeting you, Ikari Shinji-kun."

And yeah, I'm not really positive what is on the moon is Adam, in fact I actually don't think it is, just sort of looks like a Lilith/Adam hybrid. Well, maybe that's what it is...

I know this doesn't have to do with the "sequel theory," but Lilith in Nerv HQ has the face/mask of the 4th angel. And they make a point of showing that angel produce another face after an N2 mine. The thing on the moon looks like it has the mask of Lilith from the series, making me think that something fishy is going on. That difference alone makes me think this can't be some sort of sequel, but a re-telling with some major plot differences.

As for the waves of red water that's shown in the first scene, I think it looks like foreshadowing of what will happen in the conclusion, rather than implying what happened before. Sort of like when Shinji sees Rei floating in the street at the pay phone and again after Third Impact. I think we'll see that shot of red water again in the fourth film. However, I really have no clue what that outline is supposed to be, but if I had to guess I'd say it has something to do with the current Lilith in Nerv HQ.
BALLSBALLSBALLS. Balls of steel...

AchtungAffen
Banned
User avatar
Age: 38
Posts: 1728
Joined: Dec 07, 2004
Location: Sur, pared
Gender: Male
Contact:

Postby AchtungAffen » Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:59 pm

Besides a "kimi" for Keel sounds funny.
"Oh, Constantine! To how many evils origin was given, not by your conversion to Christianity, but by the dowry which from you received the first Pope that was rich!" - Dante
How can you expect to live in a Republic when you don't care about the res-publica?
"The gun, in all its forms, was the epochal tool of white male supremacy, which is why it continues to have irrational appeal. As much as the jack-booted hate Jews and blacks, that much they love their guns." - James Carrol
My List @ AniDB

- Original activist against the lockers-that-be -

Sailor Star Dust
Kept you waiting, huh?
Kept you waiting, huh?
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 22937
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Location: Living in Houston, TX
Gender: Female
Contact:

Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:13 pm

My brain was playing tricks on me. For some reason I thought I heard ANOTHER "また" (not just the one heard at the start of Kaworu's words. btw,
"また" can be translated as "again") at the start of "会えるときは楽しみだよ、碇シンジ君。"

I didn't mean to open up a can of worms, but if anybody needs be I'll be sitting in the corner with a paper bag over my head featuring Shinji & Asuka painted on the outside.
~Take care of yourself, I need you~

sedemihcrA
Lilith
User avatar
Posts: 106
Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Postby sedemihcrA » Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:35 am

What if it's self-sequential? What if the Third Impact (in Rebuild canon) rearranges the universe as Shinji sees fit (sort of like the proposed alternate world of the series' 3I). But since Shinji doesn't have the will to change his blank slate world, the world keeps going back to where it started, putting it back to the moment of Rebuild 0:1's beginning. And this cycle gets repeated over and over again because Shinji doesn't have the will to break the chain.

The fourth movie could be him finally coming to grips with himself and altering the events of 3I enough that the cycle is finally broken, hence having the fourth movie take place post-3I.
In the middle of winter I at last discovered that there was in me an invincible summer.


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests