OTSUKI LIED TO US!

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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OTSUKI LIED TO US!

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Postby NAveryW » Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:56 pm

"Filling works with difficult words and concepts in order to create confusion among viewers was a good technique 12 years ago, but not anymore..."
The plot itself may be "more accessible", but they have most certainly not done away with "difficult words and concepts". In fact, they've barely removed any, and added many more! Was that Newtype statement an outright lie, or did they just decide to go along with a bad technique?
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Postby Nephilim » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:08 pm

Maybe we should wait until the 4 movies are released before complaining about that... :smirk:

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Postby Themaninblack » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:43 pm

NAveryW wrote:
"Filling works with difficult words and concepts in order to create confusion among viewers was a good technique 12 years ago, but not anymore..."
The plot itself may be "more accessible", but they have most certainly not done away with "difficult words and concepts". In fact, they've barely removed any, and added many more! Was that Newtype statement an outright lie, or did they just decide to go along with a bad technique?



I would hate Rebuild if kept its wrod and dumbed itself down for lazy viewers.
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Postby Shiro » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:55 pm

Not exactly lied. They DID do away with annoying katakana phrases like SAADO CHIRUDOREN. So there's something.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:16 pm

Shiro wrote:Not exactly lied. They DID do away with annoying katakana phrases like SAADO CHIRUDOREN. So there's something.

"Children" wasn't really a difficult word or phrase. It was just a really Engrishy one.

"Difficult words and phrases" are like enigmatically babbling about THE BOY HAS AWAKENED. NUMBER THREE YOU HAVEN'T CHANGED. CONTRACT WITH LILITH. BLAH BLAH BLAH. (I haven't seen the movie yet, so, if there are more, I leave others to furnish them.)

So, yeah, I have no idea WTF Otsuki was trying to claim there. Webuild, offhand, seems to be directly following NGE's tradition of being silly and pretentious. I mean: Coffins on the Moon. Come the fuck on. And they not only keep the cross-shaped explosions, they give them a little rainbow flourish. Plus there's an upside-down garden of unearthly delights in the Geofront. And let's not forget squishing all of those mindless references onto the Seele monoliths, either.

ROFL.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:20 pm

But would we want Eva any other way?


I mean thats what a live action version would be for.

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Postby evilhead008 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:23 pm

But would we want Eva any other way?


I mean thats what a live action version would be for.


Pretty much... do you think Anno knows that? :yippee:

Evangelion just wouldn't be Evangelion if it made sense.

Still, if you take that and add 30000 more explosions... does it get any better?

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Postby Xard » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:33 am

evilhead008 wrote:
But would we want Eva any other way?


I mean thats what a live action version would be for.


Pretty much... do you think Anno knows that? :yippee:

Evangelion just wouldn't be Evangelion if it made sense.

Still, if you take that and add 30000 more explosions... does it get any better?


lolwut, I guess I'm fan of Eva ripoff then like everyone else in here

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Re: OTSUKI LIED TO US!

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Postby cat42 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:20 pm

"Filling works with difficult words and concepts in order to create confusion among viewers was a good technique 12 years ago, but not anymore..."


I always assumed this was more of a reference to the words flashing onto the screen for 2-3 frames (like they used in the teaser for Eva 2.0...) and also a claim that everything would be explained this time around, or at least we'd get much better hints that will allow us to figure out most of it...
maybe...
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Postby Reichu » Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:52 pm

cat42 wrote:I always assumed this was more of a reference to the words flashing onto the screen for 2-3 frames

But those aren't "difficult words and concepts". They're words flashing on the screen, most of them easily understood (if you know the language and can read them in time). Unlike the sort of bullshit exemplified by 1.0's final scene.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby honsou » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:04 pm

Reichu wrote:
cat42 wrote:I always assumed this was more of a reference to the words flashing onto the screen for 2-3 frames

But those aren't "difficult words and concepts". They're words flashing on the screen, most of them easily understood (if you know the language and can read them in time). Unlike the sort of bullshit exemplified by 1.0's final scene.


I don't think it was bullshit as much as it was a good cliffhanger, knowing that there is another movie, it seems like a good way to keep fans excited about the next movie.

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Postby Ornette » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:45 pm

honsou wrote:I don't think it was bullshit as much as it was a good cliffhanger, knowing that there is another movie, it seems like a good way to keep fans excited about the next movie.

That's more or less what I got out of it. I left the theatre wanting to see more.

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Postby Shiro » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:09 pm

Would any of us have been happy if Webuild had done away with the Pointless Religious Symbolism (TM)? It gave the series its flair. And you could have said the same thing about Lilith on the Cross back in episode 15, had it been the end of a movie. Lots of PRS. I do think that there WAS a bit much, like squeezing the new symbol onto the Seele monoliths, but really. Would you have expected any different? I'm sure there's gonna be a decent reason for the coffins, and if not, we can fanwank one after 4.0's over.
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Postby Xard » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:07 pm

Reichu wrote: Unlike the sort of bullshit exemplified by 1.0's final scene.


It is only bullshit if we won't get answers to that in next 3 movies

That's like saying HIP is bullshit since we don't learn what it is untill end of the show

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Postby sedemihcrA » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:53 pm

Xard wrote:
Reichu wrote: Unlike the sort of bullshit exemplified by 1.0's final scene.


It is only bullshit if we won't get answers to that in next 3 movies

That's like saying HIP is bullshit since we don't learn what it is untill end of the show


Technically yes, although the show had many more unresolved features/sub-plots/mysteries due to the rejection and re-animating of the last two episodes. Had it not been for the movie, Evangelion would appear massively unfinished to a greater degree in explaining things like Lilith, Adam, and 3rd Impact.

Hopefully we won't have to have a fifth movie to explain the first four... :hmph:
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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:43 pm

Don't forget about how they revised episodes 21 through 24 in accompaniment with EoE. It did end up being a lot more satisfying, but... They ultimately generated more additional questions than they solved -- and let's not forget about the plot hole that is episode 24 dilating to several times its original size. (See: The epic thread on the subject for more information.)

@Xard: "Bullshit" at least in the sense that the dialogue is really kind of stupid and silly if you think about it hard enough.

And I still don't hold any substantial expectations that all of this crap will get explained, especially the blatantly "it doesn't make a lick of sense, but who cares, ITS TEH COOL" stuff. It would be nice if Eva internally justified all of its flagrant pedantry, excess, and "lolwut" moments, but I guess that was never on Anno et al.'s list of priorities.
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Postby sedemihcrA » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:14 am

Reichu wrote:Don't forget about how they revised episodes 21 through 24 in accompaniment with EoE. It did end up being a lot more satisfying, but... They ultimately generated more additional questions than they solved -- and let's not forget about making the plot hole that is episode 24 dilating to several times its original size. (See: The epic thread on the subject for more information.)

...

And I still don't hold any substantial expectations that all of this crap will get explained, especially the blatantly "it doesn't make a lick of sense, but who cares, ITS TEH COOL" stuff. It would be nice if Eva internally justified all of its flagrant pedantry, excess, and "lolwut" moments, but I guess that was never on Anno et al.'s list of priorities.


Yes I think this is an extremely valid point. If you want to take it even further, lacking internal consistency within the canon is a great stick in the eye to otaku. Given that thematically EoE (and the series to a great degree) seem to be addressing otaku and their inability to "grow up" with Shinji, one could see the DC edits as a kind of retroactive sabotaging of the series to that end.

This is why I'm so skeptical of Rebuild. I think if it in any way ends up playing some sort of sequel theory out with the original series, it will only add gasoline to the confusion/unexplainable pyre of the canon.

I always kind of thought those "errors" or the way the original series kind of implodes was a statement about these minutiae being irrelevant when compared to the rest of the story. It's a statement against the traditional anime vogue of world-building and against the otaku attitude which upholds it. The fact it's so damn successful and lauded should be proof. There is something revolutionary in breaking your own story to the despair of your fan base (if you do it right.)

Or maybe I'm giving him more credit than he's due and he's really struggling and failing to make sense out of his own narrative.
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Postby Sepperoni » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:13 am

Could we get a link to the epic thread on episode 24? I mean, I'll go looking, but the chances of me finding it...

Seems like Anno always tried to make it clear that he was sticking it to the otaku lifestyle...but that was back then, right? All of his statements about the Rebuild have been significantly different than the statements he made about the original series. When I first read up on the Rebuild I came to the conclusion that he had more or less the same intentions- to generate mass self-awareness, you know, when it comes right down to it- but that he was looking to be a lot nicer about it. But now...

I dunno. Here's something I do know: it would be extremely difficult to make this much of a mess of something by yourself. If he's struggling and failing, then he has help...and people really love it, so it's not going to stop.

Oh yeah...I remember reading an interview where Tomoki Kyoda, the guy who did Evangelion 1.0's storyboards, said that Anno must be "one scary bastard" were his thoughts on the changes that Anno intended to make with all four movies. I'd say that sheds some light on the matter, in that he probably plans on completely undermining himself. Again. At the very least, this shit is planned. =P

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:26 am

Sepperoni wrote:Could we get a link to the epic thread on episode 24? I mean, I'll go looking, but the chances of me finding it...


This is the most obvious thread
thread/2095/The-Great-Episode-24-Plot-Hole-Fanwank-Thread/520/
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Postby cat42 » Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:31 am

Sepperoni wrote:Oh yeah...I remember reading an interview where Tomoki Kyoda, the guy who did Evangelion 1.0's storyboards, said that Anno must be "one scary bastard" were his thoughts on the changes that Anno intended to make with all four movies. I'd say that sheds some light on the matter, in that he probably plans on completely undermining himself. Again. At the very least, this shit is planned.


Can you post a link to that interview please? I'd like to read it.

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