Rebuild's Canonicity Tier *REBUILD SPOILERS*

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Rebuild's Canonicity Tier *REBUILD SPOILERS*

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Postby Shiro » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:43 pm

(I know this is in the other forum, but it's a big issue and the other members should get an input. Reichu told me to get the discussion going again anyway)

OK, so we know that Rebuild needs a place in the Tiers of Canonicity. And we also know that it comes directly from Anno himself. So where does it belong?

Take this scenario: Let's say that Anno gives us Kaji's backstory, but it's different from Sadamoto's manga's Kaji backstory. Would it go above T4, the manga, or below it? Since it comes from Anno himself, I'd say put it above the manga, at the very least, if not higher. Things such as Ramiel's transformations can simply be attributed to lack of animation. Anno said himself that Yashima in Webuild was how he wanted it in Old Century, but couldn't. Others, like the Moon Giant, are more complicated.

Anyway, I've contradicted myself enough already, so my opinion is to create a new "Tier 4," or even a new "Tier 3," (since T3 is stuff that doesn't come from Anno, and Anno isn't likely going to retcon the CI, which if do come from him are T2, not 3) and bump the manga down to tier five, dumping Greenfingers et. al, to T6.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:48 pm

Ramiel's transformations don't need to be "attributed" to anything for the original NGE. In that continuity, Ramiel doesn't transform. In Rebuild, it does. The design concept was changed. There's no reconciliation and there doesn't need to be.
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Postby Shiro » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:12 am

OK, bad example. Pretend that statement wasn't there. (Was in a slight hurry when I typed up that post)
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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:29 am

Ornette pointed out that there might be changes in Kaji's character (or in any other example, for instance) that would make the backstory irrelevant to the series, and suggested taking things in a case-by-case basis. Frankly, I agree. If it has to have a tier, it should be Tier 4, alternate publications that need to be viewed on a case-by-case basis. Whatever fits the old TV series better could be considered as canon, and whatever doesn't fit is not.

:shrug: I know it has a lot of loose tolerances(to use firearms terminology), but I can't think of much else.

Perhaps later we should also consider the canonicity of the other works (including the TV series) wrt Rebuild. That's for the future, but I do imagine having to get that done when analyzing Rebuild in its completeness.
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Postby V » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:42 pm

I am uncertain if Rebuild should be above, equal to, or below the Manga in canonicity.
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Postby EvaCub » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:29 pm

shouldn't we wait to judge that (being the tier) until 2.0 comes out??
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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:56 pm

EvaCub wrote:shouldn't we wait to judge that (being the tier) until 2.0 comes out??

Why? And if you bring up the totally insubstantial "DURR HURR ITS A SEQUEL" hypothesis, I will go EoE Shinji on your neck. KYAHH!
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Postby Shiro » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:53 am

I say, for sure, it should no matter what be above the manga. Rebuild came from Anno. Manga didn't. Anno created NGE. Thus, perhaps Rebuild should even be tier 3, since the current T3 was never from Anno. (Except for maybe the CI, in which case it'd be T2)
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Postby TriLink » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:12 am

V wrote:I am uncertain if Rebuild should be above, equal to, or below the Manga in canonicity.

It seems silly to me that we're even having this discussion at all. Why can't all of the respective canon's be separate but equal?
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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:08 am

They are considered separate and all. But, since the Wiki's emphasis is on the original series, there needs to be a policy regarding the "relationship" between the manga and Rebuild to the original series and the applicability of information contained in them back to NGE.

Shiro wrote:Thus, perhaps Rebuild should even be tier 3, since the current T3 was never from Anno.

I don't really see how information in an alternate version of NGE could be considered of equal precedence/applicability to the original show as the information in external sources that are actually, you know, ABOUT Neon Genesis Evangelion...

(Except for maybe the CI, in which case it'd be T2)

It's sort of a 2 1/2.
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Postby Shiro » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:25 am

Reichu wrote:I don't really see how information in an alternate version of NGE could be considered of equal precedence/applicability to the original show as the information in external sources that are actually, you know, ABOUT Neon Genesis Evangelion...


I suppose that's true. But of course those sources that I mentioned weren't made by Anno, of course. What I'm getting at is:

Let's say that something Anno gives us in 2.0 conflicts with something that was in the Red Cross Book. We know that the RCB has a history of containing misinformation. So do we say that the RCB is right, or that Anno's 2.0 is right. Because we don't know if Anno intended for said piece of information to be included as part of Old Century or not, or if it was something that he wanted to add into his mythos, or if it was just something completely new.


All in all, I suppose the idea of separate canon is probably the best thing; I guess I'm getting into too much of what-ifs. Ah, well. But Rebuild definitely should be above the manga, at the very least, if you don't use separate canons.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:34 am

Shiro wrote:Let's say that something Anno gives us in 2.0 conflicts with something that was in the Red Cross Book. We know that the RCB has a history of containing misinformation.

The movie pamphlets (YES THERE ARE THREE OF THEM!) aren't THAT bad.

All in all, I suppose the idea of separate canon is probably the best thing; I guess I'm getting into too much of what-ifs. Ah, well. But Rebuild definitely should be above the manga, at the very least, if you don't use separate canons.

We are treating them as separate canons. Tiers of Canonicity is, as I mentioned before, a policy for how these various things relate back to the original show and which sources take precedence over others. The manga and Rebuild, when discussed in and of themselves, would have their own "Tiers of Canonicity", but we aren't worrying ourselves with constructing those.

Putting Rebuild above the manga has some issues, considering how Rebuild is certainly going to diverge more heavily from its source material and thus have less direct applicability.
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Postby Szmitten » Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:15 am

Since the original series/movies are apparently the primary tier, then all of the AU stuff should go together. Tier 4 should be Manga and Rebuild.

If, for whatever reason, we made a Wiki where Rebuild was the primary tier, then the series would become Tier 4 with the Manga. If we did one for the Manga, then the series and Rebuild are Tier 4. Do you see?

The series is Tier 1, therefore Rebuild and Manga are Tier 4.

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Postby BLACKANGEL32076 » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:25 pm

To me, anything that Anno had direct involvement and guidance with is above the manga.
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Postby DokEnkephalin » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:36 pm

I agree, if it's by the original author's hand it should have more authority than a derivative work, even done by a collaborator. On the other hand, personal revision is to be suspect, so the original and Rebuild shouldn't necessarily occupy the same tier (nor perhaps the numerous DCs.)

Maybe the revisions rather than whole text should be evaluated for their case-by-case merits, with consideration to what was intended in the prior work and what was intended in the later. So far I haven't seen anything added that presents a departure from the original intents of the story, though what's excluded may be more significant. But the gradual introduction of changes in 1.0, and the teasers of 2.0, indicate that there will be some surprises.

And if this does turn out to be a sequel, little as that speculation is appreciated, then there's no questions about continuity, and I just hope Anno gives a more satisfying wrap-up than some cheesy, "And it was all just a dream!" device.

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Postby Apathetic Piggy » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:37 am

I'll agree with the general idea that if Anno's involved as much as he is, it has to be placed above the manga in terms of the "one-true canon." That said, it really is up to him. If after the fourth part, he came out and established it overwrites the original series, it still does come up to each individual fan over which canon is the "correct" canon.

Trying to figure out a tier system for something such as this is going a bit off the deep end, so to speak. I'm for waiting to see the overall project before I make my decision on how this fits, and if it should. There will obviously be two main parties (always is) over this, but I do think we should allow Anno to complete what he has to say with Rebuild before we judge where to put it.

What I'm generally saying, is that we should wait until it's done. Anno seems to like screwing with his fans, and things can change, so it's pretty much up in the air at the moment and trying to decide at a quarter-completion does seem a tad foolhardy. Just my two cents.


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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:13 am

Ah, this old thread is back? In any case, we're not bothering about which Tier Rebuild is in at the moment, since it doesn't fit with the established Tiers of Canonicity for the TV series.
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