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Postby Carl Horn » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:09 pm

I'm very fond of Amanda Winn-Lee, and I thought hers was from the beginning the best performance in the dub. When I interviewed her back in '97 for ANIMERICA, she spoke in a very thoughtful way on her psychological reading of Rei (much as the Japanese seiyuu did for the manga).

I was actually invited by Keith Burgess to do a commentary track on THE END OF EVANGELION, which I turned down--sometimes I feel I should have, but on the other hand, I wonder what I would have really had to say? The first time I ever saw the movie, I and everyone else in the room was almost completely silent--saying nothing at all for the last fifteen minutes. It's that kind of film; maybe it shouldn't have any commentary track, except if it's by Anno.

(Manga's DVD of Gainax's *other* feature film, ROYAL SPACE FORCE, *does* have a director's commentary track by Hiroyuki Yamaga--together with assistant director Takami Akai--subtitled in English. Manga recorded it especially for the U.S. release, and as far as I know, it was the first director's commentary track on an anime DVD either in America or Japan. FanimeCon and myself helped to arrange the recording session in California, but the important thing is that Manga saw the value of having it. The DVD has been bought by many Japanese fans just for this track).

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Postby bp32 » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:11 pm

Carl Horn wrote:I'm very fond of Amanda Winn-Lee, and I thought hers was from the beginning the best performance in the dub. When I interviewed her back in '97 for ANIMERICA, she spoke in a very thoughtful way on her psychological reading of Rei (much as the Japanese seiyuu did for the manga).

I was actually invited by Keith Burgess to do a commentary track on THE END OF EVANGELION, which I turned down--sometimes I feel I should have, but on the other hand, I wonder what I would have really had to say? The first time I ever saw the movie, I and everyone else in the room was almost completely silent--saying nothing at all for the last fifteen minutes. It's that kind of film; maybe it shouldn't have any commentary track, except if it's by Anno.

(Manga's DVD of Gainax's *other* feature film, ROYAL SPACE FORCE, *does* have a director's commentary track by Hiroyuki Yamaga--together with assistant director Takami Akai--subtitled in English. Manga recorded it especially for the U.S. release, and as far as I know, it was the first director's commentary track on an anime DVD either in America or Japan. FanimeCon and myself helped to arrange the recording session in California, but the important thing is that Manga saw the value of having it. The DVD has been bought by many Japanese fans just for this track).


I think I would maim to get my hands on a copy of EoE with Anno commentary :twisted:
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Postby thewayneiac » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:40 pm

Dave wrote:
thewayneiac wrote:Yes, Evas are like the Elves in Tolkien, immortal except for when they aren't.


Quit dissing on Tolkien, the Elves in middle-earth don't die; if their bodies are slain their spirits go to Mandos and they are reborn. Evas, on the other hand, end after they are ripped to bloody shreds.


Believe me, I'd be the very last one to dis Tolkien. Peter Jackson on the other hand....

Reichu wrote:Can the Elves take the ungodly amounts of abuse that the Evas can?


No, but they can take more damage than a human.
I get the sense that "immortal" generally means "you live forever unless forcibly killed", generally remaining in an ideal and unaging physical state, whereas us lousy mortals have to deal with physical degradation and our bodies eventually committing suicide no matter HOW much care we take of them.


That's exactly right, except that Elves are truely immortal in that, as Dave wrote, even when they are killed it's not permanent. After they rest up for a few centuries from being killed, they are issued new bodies and resume their lives. (They are not "reborn" in the sense of reincarnated.)

Hmmm... we'd better cut this shot. Eva Monkey probably wouldn't like it if we turned this into a Tolkien thread.
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Postby Carl Horn » Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:22 am

thewayneiac wrote:
Dave wrote:
thewayneiac wrote:Yes, Evas are like the Elves in Tolkien, immortal except for when they aren't.


Quit dissing on Tolkien, the Elves in middle-earth don't die; if their bodies are slain their spirits go to Mandos and they are reborn. Evas, on the other hand, end after they are ripped to bloody shreds.


Believe me, I'd be the very last one to dis Tolkien. Peter Jackson on the other hand....

Reichu wrote:Can the Elves take the ungodly amounts of abuse that the Evas can?


No, but they can take more damage than a human.
I get the sense that "immortal" generally means "you live forever unless forcibly killed", generally remaining in an ideal and unaging physical state, whereas us lousy mortals have to deal with physical degradation and our bodies eventually committing suicide no matter HOW much care we take of them.


That's exactly right, except that Elves are truely immortal in that, as Dave wrote, even when they are killed it's not permanent. After they rest up for a few centuries from being killed, they are issued new bodies and resume their lives. (They are not "reborn" in the sense of reincarnated.)

Hmmm... we'd better cut this shot. Eva Monkey probably wouldn't like it if we turned this into a Tolkien thread.


Before he shuts us down ^_^ I'd better say that I read LORD OF THE RINGS for the first time when I was 11 and have read it several times since, but never read THE SILMARILLION until last year, when I was 33 ;-).
Intense, powerful, moving book that you probably can't appreciate until you've read the trilogy, even though it is the "Old Testament," as it were, of Middle-Earth. What makes it so powerful is that you realize to the people of the trilogy--heroic as they are--the true days of glory and wonder were a long, long, long time ago, THE SILMARILLION is the source of the legends, like the tale of Luthien and Beren, that kept Sam and Frodo going--except in THE SILMARILLION you get to see these legends as characters, as people.

Incidentally, this is the one great "failing" of the movies--I put it in quotes because I'm not sure what they could have done about it. It's this: what makes the Elves different from humans above all else (I should say, from the perspective of humans--Elves see the difference differently) is that, barring violence, they are immortal. As you can imagine, it'd be very hard to relate to someone who looked your age but was thousands of years old--in the books, the humans and halflings constantly feel awe, reverence, or fear in their presence or even at the mention of them (elves alreading being half-legendary creatures to most men in the age of the trilogy). And has been said before, if they should die, Elves know exactly where their spirits are going, whereas all men can do is try and have faith (in the story of the downfall of Aragorn's ancestors, we learn that even the Elves don't know what happens to humans after they die).

But no SFX can make you feel this kind of different spiritual presence; the most they can do is dress the elves in white, shine a little extra light on them, and have Enya music follow them around (which is technically un-Tolkien, I believe...I understand Elvish had ancient Scandanavian, not Celtic roots). I guess it's the same kind of problem you have in making movies about Jesus, which might explain why recent films have tended to dwell more on him getting beaten up instead of trying to suggest his holiness.

Ahem. I must somehow link this back to EVA. I know. The movies are planned as a trilogy.

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Postby Dave » Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:32 pm

Another Tolkien fan I see, you and me should have a nice long chat sometime Carl. :wink:
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Postby thewayneiac » Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:44 pm

And has been said before, if they should die, Elves know exactly where their spirits are going,


Yes, and a related thing they don't explain well in the movies at all is that Elves don't have to die to go where Elves go when they die, and this is where they show them sailing off to.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:29 pm

So what happens if an Elf gets killed in Mandos?
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Carl Horn » Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:55 pm

Reichu wrote:So what happens if an Elf gets killed in Mandos?


Yea, even Illuvatar knows not; yet verily all the sharp table corners have been carefully rounded to minimize the possibility; also there are non-slip mats in all the bathtubs.

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Postby thewayneiac » Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:21 pm

Reichu wrote:So what happens if an Elf gets killed in Mandos?


The Halls of Mandos is the place in The Undying Lands where the souls of the dead rest up from being killed; thus when they are there they have no bodies to kill. Also, I don't think it's possible to kill souls in Tolkien, so this isn't really a problem. After an Elf is released his new body could presumably be killed then he would have to start the reembodying process over again.

This isn't like DragonBall Z, where if you get killed while wearing that silly halo it's permanent.
Rejoice, glory is ours. Our young men have not died in vain. Their graves need no flowers. The tapes have recorded their names.
I am all there is.
Negative! Primative! Limited! I let you live.
But I gave you life.
What else could you do?
To do what was right.
I'm perfect, are you?

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Postby Carl Horn » Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:26 pm

I may as well note that my favorite line in BORED OF THE RINGS is "They showered blank propaganda leaflets on the illiterate defenders."

That, or "'This is indeed a queer river,' said Bromosel, as the water lapped at his thighs."

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Postby Reichu » Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:36 pm

thewayneiac wrote:The Halls of Mandos is the place in The Undying Lands where the souls of the dead rest up from being killed; thus when they are there they have no bodies to kill.


So... when the Elves go there without having died first, does that mean they have to sacrifice their physical form before they can get in? :has strange thoughts of Elves bursting into LCL:

And what if an Elf got sick of living? Are there any loopholes that would allow them to commit suicide?

And, er, to throw something slightly on topc out there... Well, NGE doesn't ever really touch the idea of what happens to souls after death, so for all we know Evas COULD be reborn somewhere. :D
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Dave » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:47 pm

Reichu wrote:So... when the Elves go there without having died first, does that mean they have to sacrifice their physical form before they can get in? :has strange thoughts of Elves bursting into LCL:

And what if an Elf got sick of living? Are there any loopholes that would allow them to commit suicide?


Both of those questions have basically the same answer. When one of the Eldar grows weary of living either through grief or the passage of time (around 100,000 years according to Tolkien) their spirit simply leaves their body and heads to Mandos so they can rest. Sorry, no popping into orange goo. :(
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Postby thewayneiac » Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:25 pm

Dave wrote:
Reichu wrote:So... when the Elves go there without having died first, does that mean they have to sacrifice their physical form before they can get in? :has strange thoughts of Elves bursting into LCL:

And what if an Elf got sick of living? Are there any loopholes that would allow them to commit suicide?


Both of those questions have basically the same answer. When one of the Eldar grows weary of living either through grief or the passage of time (around 100,000 years according to Tolkien) their spirit simply leaves their body and heads to Mandos so they can rest. Sorry, no popping into orange goo. :(


Right, but to clarify the answer to the first part of Reichu's question, no they don't have to give up their physical form to get there. As I pointed out, an Elf can board a ship and sail to Valinor whenever he wants, and take up residence without ever having died in any sense of the word.
Rejoice, glory is ours. Our young men have not died in vain. Their graves need no flowers. The tapes have recorded their names.
I am all there is.
Negative! Primative! Limited! I let you live.
But I gave you life.
What else could you do?
To do what was right.
I'm perfect, are you?

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Postby Dave » Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:03 pm

There's a difference between sailing to Valinor and going to Mandos, seeing as how they are two different places, thewayneiac.
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Postby Tabris » Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:51 pm

Weren't the Halls of Mandos a place where the spirits of all things (Elves, Dwarves, Men etc.) awaited their return to either Aman (Elves) or a passing out west of Arda (Men - to await a kind of reincarnation?) or remained in Aule's care in Mandos until 'the End' (Dwarves)? In that sense, an already 'disembodied' Elf spirit would be sent directly to Mandos, but an Elf that was still living did not need to give up their physical form in order to enter Valinor - which isn't exactly the same sort of resting place that Mandos is. In other words, Valinor is a physical place... where Elves can still dwell in physical bodies... but eventually even their spirits will go to Mandos, which is more of a (metaphorically) 'spiritual', rather than physical, place?

Apologies. It's late and I've had some wine...

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Postby KamaKase » Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:22 pm

"What do I think? It's an interesting idea, but it raises too many questions."

Such as? I'm just trying to start some discussion here, to perhaps create another way of looking at Eva; or to even totally destroy the theory. But thank you for atleast considering it. :)


"You all just think you're so much better than everyone else...well. You're not, far from it. Get your heads out of your arse."

If you're going to insult someone, make sure your insult isn't bad enough to where you're insulting yourself.

It wasn't meant to be an insult, more an expression of an extreme annoyance towards contemptuous people.
I wasn't insulting myself....or is that some backhanded comment? :S


"I think the reason you haven't gotten the answers you want is because people don't really understand just what it is you're asking. At least, I don't... and I'm usually decent at this sort of thing."

Well, funny thing is that I posted it on TB and got a few relavent comments. Although it's fair enough, I know that I'm quite difficult to understand (my mind wanders extremely quickly).

1) Do you think it's possible that as a part of Gendou's redemption him being "eaten" by the Eva is a representation of his soul being absorbed into it and replacing Yui's post as 'eternal landmark of human kind'?

2) Due to the similarities of Asuka's injuries at the end of EoE and Rei's injuries in the first episode (bearing in mind Rei's appearance to Shinji in that same episode) that Gendou had, in fact, been trying to initiate instrumentality at that point?


"It might help to be a little more lucid and slightly less acid."
I was in an irritable mood. :D


"It makes no sense to say that this is the last soul to be sent away, because it is the only soul to be sent away;"

Well, seeing as that soul was being "processed" last (according to the order of the film (as far as I can remember)), it's not quite so easily discreditable.

"the other souls all tumbled back to Earth when the Black Moon shattered."
Well, no....I can disagree with that. Not all souls returned immediately, in fact only two are indicated to have done this. Most remained in the LCL and seeing as some of the LCL was in orbit of the moon (ermmm....I don't get the significance of that, but never mind). I may be wrong there, but then someone has to explain the reddish liquid around the moon.


"Yes. it's made clear that Yui and Unit-01 are going to float off into space permanently."

Where is that made clear? Is it written in some 100% undiscreditable text somewhere, because the film is vague over this point, hence the question.

"Since Evas are immortal, at least one human soul will survive forever."
Yes, so, surely it could be Gendou's.


"No, Gendo's fondest wish was to join Yui in Unit-01; his punishment was to be barred from that and suffer the same fate as the rest of us."

Hmmmm...having re-read the first part of that. That's something I hadn't thought of. Even so, it's still possible that his punishment was infact to be trapped eternally in the Eva without Yui.


"The commentary is wrong again. Asuka's bandages are the opposite of Rei's, and correspond to the injuries she received fighting the Mass-Production Evas."

I can't remember if they are opposite or not. I shall just take your word for it. As for the latter part, yes.

"The real point of the bandages is that Asuka reembodied herself with them the same way that Shinji manifested a plug-suit in Ep. 20, even though he was piloting in his street clothes in Ep. 19."

Now that I don't agree with, I don't think it's possible for the manifestations of that kind to be possible. They weren't able to edit anything.


"Do you mean Shinji sees Rei in Ep. 1 because Gendo was trying to start Third Impact right then? No, the Angels have to be defeated before Gendo can launch his version of 3I;"

It doesn't stop him from trying.

"otherwise they could still get ahold of Adam and kill us all, even in Instrumentality."

Well seeing as Adam bonded with Lillith, I don't think that was really a problem.......hang on. What was the fear of the Angels coming into contact with Adam again? Wiping out mankind? Argh...I've forgotten the difference between Gendou's, Seele's and the Angel's ideas.

"That's Rei III at the beginning; once she gets god-like powers she transcends time and can show up whenever and wherever she wants."

I do believe that you've just made that up.

"I hope this clears up your questions."
...I've made more! ;)
Thank you for the post!

"It's what Bob Ross used to call a "happy accident". The error correction gave them something useful."
....ermmmm....no.


I'm not too up to date with LOTR....so I shall just ignore the rest of that, and leave that for you to discuss. *sways*
As seen many.

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Postby thewayneiac » Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:19 pm

Dave wrote:There's a difference between sailing to Valinor and going to Mandos, seeing as how they are two different places, thewayneiac.


Oh, did I cause some confusion?
I was using a sort of shorthand there. When I refered to "the place where Elves go when they die", I meant Valinor as their ultimate destination, not Mandos as their temporary refuge, and that they can sail to Valinor whenever thay want. I certainly didn't mean that Elves have to sail to the Halls of the Dead.

Isn't it a strange way to look at it to say that Valinor and Mandos are two different places when Mandos is in Valinor. If you're in Mandos by defininition you are also in Valinor. If your're in Valinor you are in Mandos only if you are currently dead.

Tabris wrote:Weren't the Halls of Mandos a place where the spirits of all things (Elves, Dwarves, Men etc.) awaited their return to either Aman (Elves) or a passing out west of Arda (Men - to await a kind of reincarnation?) or remained in Aule's care in Mandos until 'the End' (Dwarves)? In that sense, an already 'disembodied' Elf spirit would be sent directly to Mandos, but an Elf that was still living did not need to give up their physical form in order to enter Valinor - which isn't exactly the same sort of resting place that Mandos is. In other words, Valinor is a physical place... where Elves can still dwell in physical bodies... but eventually even their spirits will go to Mandos, which is more of a (metaphorically) 'spiritual', rather than physical, place?


I think the book says that the fate of Dwarves is totally unknown. Aule doesn't run Mandos, so that can't be right. If the souls of men were being reincarnated they would not have to pass beyond the circles of the world; it would be done from Mandos. It's clear that their fate is totally different from that of the Elves. The implication that they are with Illuvatar is inescapable. Yes, the Elves living in Valinor have physical bodies, including the ones who have been given new ones upon release from Mandos. Mandos is a physical place, (its location in Valinor is even described), where the spirits of the dead, (which are not physical), are housed. The book does say that even the Elves in Valinor, and for that matter even the Valar, will eventually become world-weary, but I don't think it says that they will die like the world-weary Elves in Middle Earth.
Rejoice, glory is ours. Our young men have not died in vain. Their graves need no flowers. The tapes have recorded their names.
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To do what was right.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:35 pm

Kamakase, if you are paying attention at the end of the film, it seems blatantly obvious that Yui is the one inside the Eva. Off-screen, Shinji ejects the entry plug and falls down to Earth as EVA-01 drifts away from it. This is represented "metaphysically" in the movie: Yui gives Shinji one final caress, and he says goodbye to her; Shinji moves towards red waters (the LCL on Earth), while Yui drifts into darkness (the abyss of space).
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby thewayneiac » Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:28 pm

KamaKase wrote:
"It makes no sense to say that this is the last soul to be sent away, because it is the only soul to be sent away;"


Well, seeing as that soul was being "processed" last (according to the order of the film (as far as I can remember)), it's not quite so easily discreditable.


Yui's soul never got processed at all, Evas are an ark, or refuge in which one can ride out 3rd Impact.

Seele: We have no intention of casting aside our physical form mearly to enter an ark called Eva.

"the other souls all tumbled back to Earth when the Black Moon shattered."


Well, no....I can disagree with that. Not all souls returned immediately, in fact only two are indicated to have done this. Most remained in the LCL and seeing as some of the LCL was in orbit of the moon (ermmm....I don't get the significance of that, but never mind). I may be wrong there, but then someone has to explain the reddish liquid around the moon.


Only two people have been reembodied, (at this place at least, it's a big world), that's not the same thing as saying only two souls returned to Earth from the black moon. Rei channeled all the souls into the black moon and they tumbled back to Earth into all the LCL released when everyone disembodied. Yes, Rei squirted a massive gout of blood/LCL towards the moon, but there's no indication that there were any souls in it.
"Yes. it's made clear that Yui and Unit-01 are going to float off into space permanently."


Where is that made clear? Is it written in some 100% undiscreditable text somewhere, because the film is vague over this point, hence the question.


"Since Evas are immortal, at least one human soul will survive forever."

Yes, so, surely it could be Gendou's.


It's made clear in the narration you hear as Unit-01 floats off into space:

(Flashback to 13 years ago - Fuyutsuki, Yui and infant-Shinji)

Fuyutsuki:
Humans create Evangelion in imitation of God... Is this our true goal?

Yui:
Yes. Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever... together with the human soul that dwells within it.

(EVA-01 and the Lance of Longinus float in space)

Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives.
It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...

Fuyutsuki:
It will be the eternal proof that humankind has existed...

Shinji:
Good-bye, mother.


I it were Gendo floating away wouldn't that have been goodbye Father?
(Note that the TV. series also ends with the words "goodbye mother".

"No, Gendo's fondest wish was to join Yui in Unit-01; his punishment was to be barred from that and suffer the same fate as the rest of us."


Hmmmm...having re-read the first part of that. That's something I hadn't thought of. Even so, it's still possible that his punishment was infact to be trapped eternally in the Eva without Yui.


No, see above.
"The commentary is wrong again. Asuka's bandages are the opposite of Rei's, and correspond to the injuries she received fighting the Mass-Production Evas."


I can't remember if they are opposite or not. I shall just take your word for it. As for the latter part, yes.
"The real point of the bandages is that Asuka reembodied herself with them the same way that Shinji manifested a plug-suit in Ep. 20, even though he was piloting in his street clothes in Ep. 19."


Now that I don't agree with, I don't think it's possible for the manifestations of that kind to be possible. They weren't able to edit anything.


If by "They weren't able to edit anything" you mean that they couldn't repair the continuity error by re-animating the sequence, you're right, of course, but once they covered it up by saying that Shinji's ego was creating a plug-suit, it became official, and they re-used it in the movie.

"Do you mean Shinji sees Rei in Ep. 1 because Gendo was trying to start Third Impact right then? No, the Angels have to be defeated before Gendo can launch his version of 3I;"


It doesn't stop him from trying.
"otherwise they could still get ahold of Adam and kill us all, even in Instrumentality."


Well seeing as Adam bonded with Lillith, I don't think that was really a problem.......hang on. What was the fear of the Angels coming into contact with Adam again? Wiping out mankind? Argh...I've forgotten the difference between Gendou's, Seele's and the Angel's ideas.


Ummm.....Adam didn't bond with Lilith until the movie; you were asking why Rei appeared in Ep. 1. Gendo didn't even have adam until Ep. 8. It does Gendo (or Seele) no good to complement everyone only to have an Angel go to Germany, find Adam and kill everyone. (if an Angel reaches Adam, we all die permanently. No instrumentality, no reembodiment.)

"That's Rei III at the beginning; once she gets god-like powers she transcends time and can show up whenever and wherever she wants."

I do believe that you've just made that up.


No, that's pretty much common knowledge on many EVA forums. (You can tell she's Rei 3 because she's wearing her school uniform. In the Instrumentality sequences, Rei 3 is either in her school uniform or naked, Rei 2 is in her plugsuit, and Rei 1, of course, is 4 four years old.
"I hope this clears up your questions."

...I've made more! ;)
Thank you for the post!

And thank you for getting this thread back on topic.

"It's what Bob Ross used to call a "happy accident". The error correction gave them something useful."

....ermmmm....no.


....ermmmmm....then what is your explanation for her returning from the LCL with bandages?
I'm not too up to date with LOTR....so I shall just ignore the rest of that, and leave that for you to discuss. *sways*


That's okay.
Rejoice, glory is ours. Our young men have not died in vain. Their graves need no flowers. The tapes have recorded their names.
I am all there is.
Negative! Primative! Limited! I let you live.
But I gave you life.
What else could you do?
To do what was right.
I'm perfect, are you?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:28 pm

thewayneiac wrote:....ermmmmm....then what is your explanation for her returning from the LCL with bandages?


To confuse us, of course!

Shinji bobbed up to the surface with his clothes back on, as well. So, did he reembody with them magically on (the "pseudosubstance" nonsense), or did he bother clothing himself before getting out of the plug? For that matter, it seems like yet another botch that we don't see the plug bob up, as well -- IIRC, they were all floating on the surface of the lake in episode #13.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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The path to an alternate Third Impact has reached stage 19 (5/22)!


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