Whose soul is inside of Eva Unit-00?

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Whose soul is inside of Eva Unit-00?

Postby Tsukasa » Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:15 pm

This is something that I have yet to figure out.

I personally believe that Naoko Akagi is inside of it, but I have also read that Rei 1 is inside it. But, if Rei 1's soul is inside Eva 00, then how does Rei 2 and 3 have their souls since Rei has only one soul...unless they pulled more from Lilith.

Just wondering as to what you think.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:56 pm

It's Rei 1. How? It's a paradox that's never really been solved. But if you're interested in foraging preexisting discussions on the matter, I'll post some links. It's been talked to death.
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Postby Dave » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:23 pm

Trust Reichu, she convinced me and quite a few others of it. :wink:
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Postby Tabris » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:42 pm

I've heard the Naoko Akagi theory a lot before, backed up by the idea that Unit 00 apparently tried to kill Ritsuko/Gendo and Rei. But that still doesn't explain how and why Naoko's soul would be put into it.

If Unit 00's soul was Rei 1, why is it that the Eva is so unstable/incompatible with Rei early on in the series? Would it perhaps be that Rei is not her own mother, therefore the connection between pilot and Eva is 'weak'...?

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Postby The Frenchman » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:52 pm

Tabris wrote:But that still doesn't explain how and why Naoko's soul would be put into it.


Why not by the same means that Naoko put herself into the MAGI system : via the OS transfer, used on Evas too (Episode 13).

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Postby MAGI » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:56 pm

The Reis can only have one soul at a time: Lilith's (apparantly). The soul of Rei I cannot be in Unit-00 because it is already in Rei II.
I would have thought it was Naoko's soul put in Unit-00 because of its berserk-mode activities. Of course, I don't know for sure.
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Postby Tabris » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:07 pm

Naoko killed herself. Could they have preserved her soul and put it into an Eva after death, considering the way the souls of Yui and Kyoko ended up in the other Evas...? It was a prototype after all, I suppose... but the other two Evas received their souls more 'directly', or at least it seems so, and I couldn't see them 'scraping her soul up off the floor', if you see what I mean. Unit 00 does resemble Naoko in a vague way, and I see the beserk element being a good argument for it... but in that case, surely Unit 00 would be incompatible with Rei...?

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Postby MAGI » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:30 pm

Don't forget that the dead Rei II could have her soul transported.

But, if you say Naoko wouldn't have been compatible, then I guess all we can do is have fun making a list of suspects and fictional characters who could have been the soul.

Here's a weird thought. Say that Rei had only a half-soul. Half in her, and half in Unit-00. (Bare with me a bit.) On the first activiation, the soul met and joined somehow, and Lilith's soul decides she hates Gendou and them. Thus the berserking. Gendou has a sweet moment with Rei, and half her soul goes "he's not a bad guy" or whatever, but her soul doesn't become one again, somehow, that makes her think she doesn't like him whilst synching. On the 16th angel, Unit-00 blew up and the half-souls mixed back to one. So, Rei III had fun tagging Gendou along till the end and got him on the floor, begging.
Hehe. Whatever.
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Postby coff » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:38 pm

I honestly don't believe that Gainax really knows who's soul is in Unit-00 either.

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Postby MAGI » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:39 pm

Maybe not Gainax, but Anno probably does.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:02 am

MAGI wrote:The Reis can only have one soul at a time: Lilith's (apparantly). The soul of Rei I cannot be in Unit-00 because it is already in Rei II.


Oh dear... Look, if Rei 1 wasn't in EVA-00, Shinji wouldn't see a distorted-looking Rei inside the Eva that is identified in episode #25's script AS BEING Rei 1. He says it's Ayanami, but different from the one he knows. I.e., the one that came before her.

By the same token, when Armisael is connecting to Rei in episode #23, Rei's first thoughts are, "The me inside Eva? No, something else." THE ME INSIDE EVA. (Eva no naka no watashi)

What I really need to do is just link to the prior debates, or, better yet, just make some kind of page compiling all of the data to save everyone a lot of trouble every time this comes up.

The show tells us that, somehow, we have Rei 1 (or some facsimile thereof) inside EVA-00 existing concurrently with Rei 2. We also know that all three Reis share Lilith's soul. How is something this paradoxical possible? Rather than dismiss it, you just have to find your own answer, because, of course, none is provided.

I would have thought it was Naoko's soul put in Unit-00 because of its berserk-mode activities. Of course, I don't know for sure.


EVA-00 was after Ritsuko. (Ever heard of a vendetta?) Gendo (and Rei, the second time) just happened to be there.
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Postby Tsukasa » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:50 am

Either person (Naoko or Rei 1) is possible because they both have the qualifications: they are both mothers.

I always thought that it was Naoko's soul because there is only one soul of Lilith's to go around. And those sequences with Rei talking to another Rei inside of Eva 00 is what I believe a confrontation of Rei's Angel half and her human half in her subconcious, a sort of interrogation of eachother, if you will. But once again, I'm no Eva 'expert'.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:10 am

Tsukasa wrote:Either person (Naoko or Rei 1) is possible because they both have the qualifications: they are both mothers.


Rei 1 isn't a mother. She is a 4-year-old girl.

Naoko would only be considered for placement inside an Eva if Ritsuko was going to be the pilot.

Read and learn, young grasshopper.

There is another thread that compiles the various evidence for Rei 1 being in EVA-00; I already mentioned many of them, but it helps to see it all in one place, with pictures. I just need to find it...

And those sequences with Rei talking to another Rei inside of Eva 00 is what I believe a confrontation of Rei's Angel half and her human half in her subconcious, a sort of interrogation of eachother, if you will. But once again, I'm no Eva 'expert'.


No; it is Armisael. Cause and effect, you see. Armisael invades EVA-00, and Rei is contacted by someone other than herself.

Rei (OFF) "Who is it?"
Rei "Me."
Rei "The me inside the Eva."
Rei "No, I sense someone other than myself."
Rei "Who are you?"
Rei "An angel? The person that we call an angel?"
Rei Voice "—— Don't you want to become one with me?"
Rei "No. I am I. I am not you."
Rei Voice "I see. But it's no use. It's already too late."

It's telling that after the Second Rei says "It's already too late", the real Rei develops the 'veins' from Armisael's invasion.
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Postby Tsukasa » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:48 pm

Rei 1 isn't a mother. She is a 4-year-old girl.


I disagree with this. Rei 1 may not have been a mother in terms of actually giving birth, but her body is an exact clone of Yui (with her DNA along with Lilith's), so her body is of a true mother (Yui had Shinji) and her soul being Lilith, is a mother to, the Mother of Man.

So I still think that either one is possible.

And I agree with your analysis on what Rei was talking to inside of Eva 00. But if it was Armisael she was talking to, then why did another Rei appear talking to Rei (unless I have some scenes mixed up, which is highly possible...)? She may have meant in terms of Rei, thinking she is human, talking to something foreign to her in terms of her Angel half that she isn't aware of...yet. She figures this out when Kaworu tells her that he and she are alike, if I recall.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:26 pm

I urge you to look at the thread I link to above.

Tsukasa wrote:I disagree with this. Rei 1 may not have been a mother in terms of actually giving birth, but her body is an exact clone of Yui (with her DNA along with Lilith's), so her body is of a true mother (Yui had Shinji) and her soul being Lilith, is a mother to, the Mother of Man.


How is Rei 1 a mother just because Yui was? Motherhood is not some kind of genetic trait (and your genes are set at the moment of conception anyway); it is an experience. If my mother was cloned, that does not make the clone a mother.

Also, calling Lilith the "mother of humanity" is pushing things a bit. (It's only really a useful desgination poetically. The only entity who was physically BORN from Lilith is EVA-01. Everything else developed from LCL-turned-primordial-soup, the old-fashioned way.) If this qualification was enough, then EVA-00 should be a wild card as far as pilots are concerned. (Heck, even Pen^2 would be eligible.) Yet EVA-00 is only exchangeable between Shinji and Rei.

I think I wrote something about this fairly recently, too.. :looks around: Bah, I can't find it. Oh well. I'll just throw some other reading material out there, even if nobody ever actually looks at it.

http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88067 (again)
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=137600&page=5

And I agree with your analysis on what Rei was talking to inside of Eva 00. But if it was Armisael she was talking to, then why did another Rei appear talking to Rei (unless I have some scenes mixed up, which is highly possible...)?


You know that old cliche about aliens appearing to us in human form so that we can relate to them better? Same thing here, I think. Armisael communicates with Rei by appearing AS Rei, and even takes this so far as to BECOME Rei (at least partially) herself.

Image

Image

Image

She may have meant in terms of Rei, thinking she is human, talking to something foreign to her in terms of her Angel half that she isn't aware of...yet. She figures this out when Kaworu tells her that he and she are alike, if I recall.


So... you're saying that there is absolutely no connection between an Angel biofusing into EVA-00 and Rei having an encounter with "someone other than [herself]"?? :shock: If Armisael is the one who is invading, it seems logical that Armisael -- and not Rei's "angel half" -- is the one who is making contact. Cause-->Effect. Pretty basic idea, IMO.

Edit: Rei does not become aware of her true self until #24, with Kaworu's help. The point of episode #23 is that, with the help of Armisael, Rei is acquainted with the painful truth of her own existence -- i.e., her loneliness. In the same way, Arael contacts Asuka in #22 and puts her in touch with her own problems. (Though Arael is a great deal more thorough about it... I always found Rei's "inner universe" scene in #23 to be short and lacking. Anno could have done much with it when he revisited the episode.)
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Postby Tsukasa » Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:12 pm

All I can say is Evangelion is INTERESTING stuff! I love hearing about all these things I miss.

But when you said that Lilith isn't the Mother of Man, I think that is still inaccurate. I know that Eva 01 is the only being BORN from Lilith and the rest of man came from LCL. Keep in mind, LCL is Lilith's blood. So in a sense, Man WAS born from Lilith.

After analyzing the idea of the alien being taking a form of a familiar shape (Rei), it makes sense to me. But what I was referring to about Rei conversing with her Angel self (that being the foreign being) was just an idea I had. I know that there was a contact between Eva 00 and the Armisael bio-fusing with it, no doubt, I was just thinking that maybe that triggered Rei's Angel half (since it made contact with her) and it sort of 'awoke' for a bit.

I will trust in your words once again about Armisael doing it because, if nothing else, it makes sense.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:25 pm

Tsukasa wrote:But when you said that Lilith isn't the Mother of Man, I think that is still inaccurate. I know that Eva 01 is the only being BORN from Lilith and the rest of man came from LCL. Keep in mind, LCL is Lilith's blood. So in a sense, Man WAS born from Lilith.


This is a different definition of "born", though. Clearly not "born" in the same way an infant is born from a woman.

I will trust in your words once again about Armisael doing it because, if nothing else, it makes sense.


Well, it's not like my words are the end-all-be-all. But a lot of the stuff I regurgitate is the product of countless debates with others. If an alternative is provided, I want to see compelling evidence that fits what we know.
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Postby Tsukasa » Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:48 pm

Yes, you are correct about the difference of birth concerning Eva 01 and man. Let's put it in the way such as this: Eva 01 was born from Lilith and man came from Lilith.

Man, Eva is fun stuff, no?
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:33 am

MAGI wrote:The Reis can only have one soul at a time: Lilith's (apparantly). The soul of Rei I cannot be in Unit-00 because it is already in Rei II.
I would have thought it was Naoko's soul put in Unit-00 because of its berserk-mode activities. Of course, I don't know for sure.


One soul, rather like Feynman's one electron (see e.g. the contextual introduction in [url]http://www.eftaylor.com/software/FeynmanDiagrams.pdf[/url]). And we know that Rei is capable of bilocative weirdness anyway:-
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Postby Reichu » Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:24 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:One soul, rather like Feynman's one electron (see e.g. the contextual introduction in [url]http://www.eftaylor.com/software/FeynmanDiagrams.pdf[/url]).


Is that the same thing as the "Quantum Magic" theory Shin-seiki brewed up a while back?

And we know that Rei is capable of bilocative weirdness anyway:-
Image


More like trilocative, if you buy the notion that it is Rei 3 who bookends the series with her two enigmatic appearances.
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