The Eva Monkey wrote:Yeah, if the mention it, it has to happen later. Typically thats how it works in cinema. However, its Eva, and Eva has quite a few plot holes and unanswered question.
Your theory about foreshadowing not applying in Eva is badly overbroad; it could be used to shoot down anything
that is telegraphed ahead. You seem almost to be saying that nothing
that happens in Eva has any bearing on anything that happens later. For example, here's a place where you used it on me:
From the Toji on the Train thread:
thewayneiac wrote: What seems to be happening here is a genuine flash-forward to Instrumentallity. Perhaps the idea is that Instrumentallity is a timeless state of existance, and that once you've synched with an EVA, it's possible, under extreme circumstances, to experience it without warning.
is it likely that something that is, "just an hallucination", would look exactly like the moments leading up to instrumentallity? Those scenes look alike for a reason: Touji is seeing something that hasn't happened yet.
The Eva Monkey wrote:Eva, unlike previous Gainax shows, was not written out in advance. The ending changed dramatically from what it was originally sketched out to be. You're assuming that the entirety of the show was thought out in detail prior to its production. This is not the case. It changed more and more as the production drew nearer to the end. The train scene in this episode would in effect be referring to an end which had not been fully conceptualized.
As an afterthought to the series, they included another train scene in another context, though only somewhat different. This is a way of establishing continuity and similarity, as well as familiarity.
This argument would hold a little more water if it the scene had been a lot earlier in the show, but even then I probably wouldn't buy it. Isn't the actual reason the show diverged more and more from the original outline in the later episodes because they were
starting to get a feel for where they were going, and it wasn't where they had originally intended when they wrote the outline? By ep. 19 nearly all the elements they needed for the climax were in place, Adam, the Lance, Asuka's ever-increasing anger with Shinji since he failed to respond to her in ep. 15, ect. And even if they didn't know exactly
what the context of Toji's vision would be, doesn't the final context determine the original context?
But as I said, I can't really buy the notion that foreshadowing doesn't apply to Eva, even in the earliest episodes. For example: when Toji implies in ep. 3 that he has no mother, and Kensuke states flat-out in ep. 4 that he has none, this is plainly setting us up for the revelation in ep. 19 that all
of Shinji's classmates are pilot candidates, and the implication that their mother's souls are all in storage somewhere. Would you really go so far as to say that when they wrote eps. 3 & 4 they were making it up as they went along, so it doesn't mean any such thing? Just because they were making it up as they went along doesn't mean that they weren't carefully following from what happened previously. I'm sure that in the places where the pieces do fit together perfectly, it was on purpose.
So getting back to the subject at hand, just what do you
think they are getting at in ep. 25 when the replay the seduction scene from 23 while telling Misato how disgusting she is?
Dave wrote:I disagree with you Monkey, I disagree with you a lot. I think you should lend Anno even more credit for the very fact that it WASN'T planned out in advance, and that nearly every scene in Eva still managed to have some sort of meaning. Whether by pure luck or Anno's genius we will never know, but it is foolish and arrogant to find fault with others when they try and dissect and examine everything about this show. The truth is, the show stands up to such dissections AMAZINGLY well. All the visual indicators ARE part of some grand scheme, what type of scheme that is remains open to debate. Why the hell do you think the show is so god damn popular? Do you really think the characters have kept this show popular (among an easily swayed fan base I might add) for 10 freaking years? Sure the characters are great, but other shows have characters just as realistic as Evangelion.
I couldn't have put this better myself. I once had a teacher who used to say that he would believe in evolution when I could shake up a box of tacks and have it fall together into a watch. By coming up with something with this much depth with little or no planning, Anno seems to have done just that.
The Eva Monkey wrote:For example, episode 24 was supposed to be about Shinji confronting Yui's presence in the Eva, not his relationship with Kaworu Nagisa.
And if they had done that episode, they would have found a way to make it fit perfectly with the rest of the series.
Rejoice, glory is ours. Our young men have not died in vain. Their graves need no flowers. The tapes have recorded their names.
I am all there is.
Negative! Primative! Limited! I let you live.
But I gave you life.
What else could you do?
To do what was right.
I'm perfect, are you?