Gboz wrote:True, but how does Shinji view Kaoru?

As the first person to treat him with genuine kindness? Even Misato was just showing pity, doing her job, and trying to get him to open up by being nice to him, and Toji and Kensuke were just "the guys," becoming friends just because they were in the same place. Kaworu, as strange as he acted, seemed to Shinji to be warm, open, and kind, as opposed to just about everyone else (including himself) who was constantly "closed" emotionally, never showing their true self.
I think that's part of the irony when Kawory turns out to be an angel, which causes Shinji the stress of finding out that the one seemingly honest person he knows has been completely misleading him the entire time. I personally don't think Kaworu was intentionally betraying Shinji, but it's clear Shinji felt that way, at least until he killed him. Afterward he seemed to think that Kaworu was good and everyone else was evil, in a sense.

Originally posted on: 27-Mar-2006, 23:17 GMT

LuigiHann wrote:I think that's part of the irony when Kawory turns out to be an angel, which causes Shinji the stress of finding out that the one seemingly honest person he knows has been completely misleading him the entire time.

:enters hypnosis:

"Well, Shinji-kun never asked, did he?

"I mean, honestly, people! You have any idea how much it sucks to be me? I'm supposed to have this beautiful womanly body that fluctuates between 40 and 200 meters in height, and this planet was supposed to belong to me and the kids, but I lost that duel and I went nappies. Leave it to those rascally Lilim to wake me up, violate my body, make me blow up in a really big way, and then put my disembodied soul into the unnatural hybrid bastard-child that resulted from aforementioned violation.

"Then, I get to be a reject kid who hatches from an egg in Seele's clutches, and this old guy named Keel calls me 'Kaworu Nagisa'. And I'm like, 'Whatever. Adam's not my real name, either.' Then, for fourteen horrible years, people look at funny because I'm kinda pale, and my eyes are red, and for other reasons of no particular consequence. My life is lonely, and isolated, and music is my only solace, and nobody understands me. Every morning I wake up, and I kind of wish I were dead or something, since I'm, like, supposed to be somebody else, you know?

"And then, when those Nerv people are finished relentlessly slaughtering my children using entities in my likeness -- how sick is that? -- I get to fulfill my purpose as 'Kaworu', and Papa Keel and those creepy guys he hangs around with send me off to do this, that, and the other. But in the process of accomplishing my mysterious directive, I meet that Ikari kid who everybody's always talking about. His mom -- now there's somebody who I can relate to... -- just so happens to be a very special Eva bridging me and Lilith. And his dad has my embryonic body in his palm, too. So I guess that kind of makes Shinji-kun 'family', doesn't it?

"But, yeah, what a great kid! We just hit it off like that. Hard to explain why, and most Lilim probably wouldn't understand anyway. I didn't have much time with Shinji-kun, but I tried to make the most of it. Mostly just spent being there for him and listening. So, naturally, I put the 'Oh, BTW, I'm a false vessel containing Adam's soul' bit on the side.

"Yeah, one could call the whole thing a bit of a personal dilemma. Put yourself in my place before you criticize, mmkay?"

Yeah. Sorta like that. Maybe.

Originally posted on: 27-Mar-2006, 23:38 GMT

and Papa Keel and those creepy guys he hangs around

They aren't creepy, they're cute! And "Nigel" seems like he'd really like Kaworu....hehe

Originally posted on: 27-Mar-2006, 23:44 GMT

Kaworu doesn't quite think of himself as Adam, even if he is aware of it. He refers to Adam in the third person, refers to adam as "our mother," and seems to consider himself his own unique being, the Lilim form of Adam, again somewhat like Jesus, in a twisted sense. It seems almost like he must have gone through the internal debates we see Rei III go through, but he's better-informed and probably got over it some time ago, and has formed himself his own unique sense of identity, even if he acknowleges that he's Adam incarnate.

Originally posted on: 27-Mar-2006, 23:51 GMT

LuigiHann wrote:Kaworu doesn't quite think of himself as Adam, even if he is aware of it. He refers to Adam in the third person, refers to adam as "our mother,"

Considering that the Tabris body which Adam is inhabiting was "born of" Adam, that would make Adam Kaworu's biological mother. Things just get a little convoluted on the soul front.

and seems to consider himself his own unique being, the Lilim form of Adam, again somewhat like Jesus, in a twisted sense. It seems almost like he must have gone through the internal debates we see Rei III go through, but he's better-informed and probably got over it some time ago, and has formed himself his own unique sense of identity, even if he acknowleges that he's Adam incarnate.

I don't really get the sense that Adam especially favors the "Kaworu" identity over the one she'd chosen... Despite orthodoxy to the contrary, my current impression is that it isn't much different with Lilith. In EoE, Rei and Kaworu seem to be used more as "avatars" than anything else, or Lilim forms to be assumed for what is, well, a Lilim-centric event. (And even then, the Shekinah version of Rei is a little ... strange.)

And Kaworu doesn't think of ... himself as Adam? The entire "time to die" speech seems to imply rather the contrary. The bit at the top of the escalator also comes to mind:

"Kimi wa boku to onaji da ne. Otagai ni, kono hoshi de ikite iku shintai wa Lilim to onaji katachi e to ikitsuita ne."

The first part is, "You're the same as me." On a really ugly literal level, the second part would be something like, "(Our) bodies that are living on this planet both ended up in the same shape as the Lilim." Eeewww. I guess, more fluently: "Both of us ended up in Lilim-shaped bodies while we live on this planet." Or something along those lines.

And Rei's all like, "Who the flying fruitcake are you?"
And Kaworu's all like, .

Originally posted on: 28-Mar-2006, 00:50 GMT

Reichu wrote:"You're the same as me. Both of us ended up in Lilim-shaped bodies while we live on this planet."

I knew you'd use that line, heh. I'm definately not saying I'm right, for sure. Just voicing my thoughts. That line is actually a bit odd anyway, considering the amount of time both Adam and Lilith spent on the planet before they were placed in the forms of Kaworu and Rei, although they were pretty idle for most of it, apparently. But that's something else entirely, I suppose.
I guess the point is that, in my interpretation, Kaworu's soul is that of Adam, and ve knows it, but that Kaworu's mind is his alone. It's hard to really define 'mind' as its own entity, as it is connected to both the soul and the body, but I think that just as each of the three Rei has her own perspective, attitude, etc. (particularly noticeable when Rei III talks to both of them), Kaworu has a unique mind from that of Adam, even though they are both part of the same entity. It's weird, but that's just the vibe I get. That particular line does make me seem totally wrong, I grant you that. But I guess I still consider that part of Kaworu's awareness of himself as a form of Adam...
I'm not arguing, really, just "thinking out loud" so to speak.

Originally posted on: 28-Mar-2006, 03:47 GMT

LuigiHann wrote:I guess the point is that, in my interpretation, Kaworu's soul is that of Adam, and ve knows it, but that Kaworu's mind is his alone.

Yes - I'd go with that. Kaworu would be in the same sort of position as Rei in

Rei: But, there's someone else who is the true you.

Rei: You don't know her.

Rei: Because you don't want to see that, you are trying to run away.

Because of fear.

Rei: Because she might not have a human shape.
Because the present me might disappear.

but with a greater degree of self-knowledge on ver part.

Originally posted on: 28-Mar-2006, 05:23 GMT

*thinking out loud as well*

I think the one thing that throws a lot of people into thinking that Shinji is gay is the whole, wouldn't-let-Misato-hold-his-hand-but-would-let-Kaworu bit. Why that is just wrong has been explained by better minds than mine in this thread.

Originally posted on: 30-Mar-2006, 01:43 GMT

Honestly, we can speculate all we won't, but Shinji's sexuality was never established. He never showed any DEFINATE sexual interest in anyone, so in the end, we don't if he was straight or gay.

Originally posted on: 30-Mar-2006, 04:17 GMT

I don' t think Shinji is gay... But most people think he is because of the sisi attitude, the clothes, the whole person...

My friends thinks Shinji' s gay. It's always like that. Just because someone looks like a freak, or seems shy or weak, people automatically assume he' s gay...

Originally posted on: 30-Mar-2006, 05:26 GMT

Cupi~chan wrote:I don' t think Shinji is gay... But most people think he is because of the sisi attitude, the clothes, the whole person...

It's not the fact that he makes Hazumu-kun (from Kashimashi) look the epitome of machismo, but rather the way he spurns Misato's advances and then swoons over Kaworu, that lead people to suspect his sexuality.

Originally posted on: 30-Mar-2006, 05:41 GMT

Yeah, I see...
But I think he' s right to spurn Misato' s advances cause she' s an adult and he' s just still a kid. If he swoons over Misato, it' ll be as bad as swooning over Kaworu...
He shoud stick to "girls" "HIS" age like Asuka.

But maybe he' s not gay but bi... LOL!!

Originally posted on: 30-Mar-2006, 05:55 GMT

Gboz wrote:Honestly, we can speculate all we won't, but Shinji's sexuality was never established. He never showed any DEFINATE sexual interest in anyone, so in the end, we don't if he was straight or gay.

I would say he's shown decided interest in Asuka...

Mr. Tines wrote:It's not the fact that he makes Hazumu-kun (from Kashimashi) look the epitome of machismo, but rather the way he spurns Misato's advances and then swoons over Kaworu, that lead people to suspect his sexuality.

Which is a pity, since it doesn't take other things into account -- like, say, Misato's role as Shinji's guardian and the way he viewed her as a sort of surrogate mother, in many ways.

Kaworu was there to conveniently fill in that gap after Shinji had "lost" not only Misato, but Ayanami, as well. Something for that thread of mine...

One should definitely embrace a worldview of love and intimacy that doesn't revolve around sEcX, IMO.

Originally posted on: 30-Mar-2006, 10:59 GMT

If Shinji was any kind of a teenage boy he'd have tapped Misato when he had the chance. That's part of the reason I don't like him. He's such a....ehhh...what's the word here..bitch? I'll go with bitch. Again.

-Man with the shallowest perspective of Evangelion ever, except Hideaki Anno himself.

Originally posted on: 30-Mar-2006, 12:05 GMT

Shinji felt abandoned by his father and never had a male in his life that really came off as a sincere friend. Karou filled that void for him, and for him to lose somebody that he felt strongly attatched to was a very powerful blow to him.

Originally posted on: 30-Mar-2006, 12:38 GMT

Reichu wrote:Which is a pity, since it doesn't take other things into account -- like, say, Misato's role as Shinji's guardian and the way he viewed her as a sort of surrogate mother, in many ways.

Quoted for truth.
Inside Shinji's subconscious mind:

^Misato = "Mama"

Originally posted on: 30-Mar-2006, 13:06 GMT

Reichu wrote:I would say he's shown decided interest in Asuka's upper torso

Fixed your post. "What do you wish for?" and all that...

Originally posted on: 30-Mar-2006, 16:47 GMT

Reichu wrote:One should definitely embrace a worldview of love and intimacy that doesn't revolve around sEcX, IMO.

Lame.

-Nya

Originally posted on: 30-Mar-2006, 17:01 GMT

Shin-seiki wrote:Quoted for truth.
Inside Shinji's subconscious mind:
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/22...aleoeraw0pe.jpg
^Misato = "Mama"

That "sandbox" sequence still troubles me greatly. But, that aside... Yes, 'tis one of the indications.

But, for some reason, as much as Shinji ... "disapproves" of Misato coming onto him and her marathon sex with Kaji, we still get these recurring "Misato on top" images.

Mr. Tines wrote:Fixed your post. "What do you wish for?" and all that...

P'shaw! He favors those particular boobs because he favors their owner.

MagicianCamille wrote:Lame.

Aw, why for you say "lame"?

Originally posted on: 31-Mar-2006, 02:44 GMT

Reichu wrote:That "sandbox" sequence still troubles me greatly.

You're not the only one. It disturbs me on an inner level.

Originally posted on: 31-Mar-2006, 02:51 GMT