Does Asuka die?

Over time, notable threads from ANF will be preserved here for the Benefit of All.

Moderators: Monk Ed, Ornette

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Wigs' theory, of course, is that the salvage operation did get something back that was physically Yui, but that the soul that was "fixed" into it was Lilith's. (This does raise the question of why Rei I apparently came into existence as an infant, since she looks to be 4-5 years old in 2010)


That is a very good question. The other is, of course, the pigmentation issue.

In any case, there are plenty of hints that Rei is, one way or another, the (possibly inadvertant) result of Yui's Contact Experiment, and the subsequent salvage operation.


But how on Earth would Lilith's soul end up in the wrong body unless she (A) for some reason WANTED to leave her original body or (B) was transferred there intentionally. I'm not really sure I buy this "accident" business. As you yourself have pointed out, Gendou speaks of Rei as though she was created with a purpose (his version of 3I, naturally), not as if she was a fortuitous accident!

In the case of Rei, I personally think it makes much more sense if she was created after Gendou had time to acknowledge his defeat (i.e., he wasn't going to get Yui back "the easy way") and come up with another plan (Instrumentality). The timeline allows for this possibility... But I won't get into it now.

"Extracting Yui's genetic material" in advance, in anticipation of creating Rei and sticking Lilith's soul in her, seems to fly in the face of the idea that what happened to Yui was a total shock to Gendo


I was going more with the possibility that there was a random 'sample' floating around that Gendou might have used. In sci-fi, whenever you want to make a clone of someone who is dead, you can always find a sample if you look hard enough!

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 17:34 GMT

ZeroRyoko1974 [ANF]
Embryo
Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ZeroRyoko1974 [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Asuka came back because she was to stubborn to have Shinji live and not bitch at him for it

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 17:43 GMT

Soluzar [ANF]
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 618
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Reichu wrote:I was going more with the possibility that there was a random 'sample' floating around that Gendou might have used. In sci-fi, whenever you want to make a clone of someone who is dead, you can always find a sample if you look hard enough!


Hairbrushes. There is DNA in folicles. Skin cells. I totally agree that this is plausible within the bounds of the genre. Plus, who's to say that Gendou didn't have the crazy idea to clone his wife even before she was lost in the Eva. He seems to be a mild sociopath, in many ways.

So, the suggestion seems to be that when they tried to salvage Yui, they got somebody, and that somebody was Rei. That was not my view, but it can't be ruled out from what I know. It would be consistent with Gendou's assertion that there was no body. Certainly I don't believe for a second that they recovered a dead body - Gendou has said that there was no body, and I just don't see him lying to his son in this way, for no readily apparent reason.

While I've been writing this, I've also been doing my research. It turns out that you guys might be right. Check this out:

Literal Translation Project wrote:Ritsuko: Ayanami Rei's room.
This is the place where she was born.

Shinji: In this room?

Ritsuko: Yes. Her birth place.
Light and Water, which make up Rei's deep mentality,
reflect the image of this place.

Misato: Dr. Akagi, I did not come to see this.

Ritsuko: I know. Misato.

----------------------------

Shinji: Eva?

Ritsuko: The first one. A failure. Disposed of 10 years ago.

Shinji: The graveyard for Evas.

Ritsuko: Nothing but a dumping ground.
This is also the place where your mother disappeared.
Probably you don't remember, but you were watching it,
watching the moment when she disappeared.


It really does seem to confirm your theory: It also raises lots of other questions. See, if that is the case, then regardless of apparent age, and the lack of her original soul (which is can never be verified anyway) Rei actually IS Yui. Not just a clone. She IS Yui. Am I right?

Some of the ways things are phrased on this show don't really hit you untill much later...

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 18:19 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Soluzar wrote:See, if that is the case, then regardless of apparent age, and the lack of her original soul (which is can never be verified anyway) Rei actually IS Yui. Not just a clone. She IS Yui. Am I right?


How are you coming to this conclusion?

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 18:41 GMT

Shin-seiki [ANF]
Armisael
Armisael
User avatar
Posts: 925
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Soluzar wrote:It really does seem to confirm your theory: It also raises lots of other questions. See, if that is the case, then regardless of apparent age, and the lack of her original soul (which is can never be verified anyway) Rei actually IS Yui. Not just a clone. She IS Yui. Am I right?
Why, then, the red eyes and blue hair? And are you saying that Yui is not in EVA-01? In any case, if there is one thing about NGE that I can assert with absolute confidence, it is that Rei's soul is that of Lilith; the point is made over and over, in many different ways...

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 18:49 GMT

Soluzar [ANF]
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 618
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

Reichu wrote:How are you coming to this conclusion?


Shin-seiki wrote:Why, then, the red eyes and blue hair? And are you saying that Yui is not in EVA-01? In any case, if there is one thing about NGE that I can assert with absolute confidence, it is that Rei's soul is that of Lilith; the point is made over and over, in many different ways...


Poor choice of words: I should have said: "This means that the original Rei's physical form is composed of the transformed remains of Yui's body."
Clearly Yui's soul is in EVA-01, and just as clearly Rei's soul is that of Lileth. I composed in haste. I just meant to say that the original Rei's body is composed of the... physical elements of what was recovered from EVA-01.

I never meant to suggest that she still carries Yui's soul. Although there are personality elements that she has in common with Yui, as has been illustrated in the series. I just meant to say that the original Rei was NOT a clone of Yui, but a... transformation of her body.

By "Cannot be verified" I meant that there's no way that it can be proven empirically. I was thinking more of the emotional ramifications for Shinji and Gendou than of any doubts over Rei's nature. If this theory is true, it goes some further way towards explaining Gendou's behaviour towards Rei, is what I had in my mind. The fact that in a very real sense, to him, Rei might be considered to be what is left of Yui. That would have been a better choice of words, if I had said "Rei is what remains of Yui." rather than "Rei is Yui."

I wish I had thought that post through better.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 19:33 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

Shin-seiki wrote:The process consists of "reconstructing his body and fixing his soul into it" I had always assumed that in Yui's case, they may have got somewhere with the first part, but failed in the second part because Yui didn't want to come back (for reasons of her own).


This insidious question just occurred to me... How can they reconstruct the body first, if an A.T. Field (ergo, the presence of a soul) is required for a human body to maintain integrity in the first place (those dratted clones nonewithstanding)? (Could this relate back to AA's idea about the destrudo being technologically "locked"?)

Originally posted on: 22-Sep-2004, 08:45 GMT

Knives [ANF]
Lilith
User avatar
Posts: 125
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

I'm running to class, so I haven't read the posts between here and my last, other than Shin-Seiki's response (I think it was him ...), so I apologize if the following question breaks from the converstation ...

Who wrote the RCB? I hear that used as evidence a lot, and I know where it comes from, but who wrote it? I'm just not clear on that fact. Thanks Image .

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 22:13 GMT

Knives [ANF]
Lilith
User avatar
Posts: 125
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

Reichu wrote:This insidious question just occurred to me... How can they reconstruct the body first, if an A.T. Field (ergo, the presence of a soul) is required for a human body to maintain integrity in the first place (those dratted clones nonewithstanding)? (Could this relate back to AA's idea about the destrudo being technologically "locked"?)

Which is more or less what I've been saying is the problem with your "ATF is necessary" for physical form concept Image ... but do you listen? No ... of course not.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 22:16 GMT

ZeroRyoko1974 [ANF]
Embryo
Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ZeroRyoko1974 [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

My understanding is that Yui was "absorbed" completely by EVA-01, and that Rei is partly a clone of Yui's genetic material and part Lilth (Adam?). But I can't recall if she has a sould, something about the room of souls being empty or something, I can't remember

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 22:23 GMT

Soluzar [ANF]
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 618
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

ZeroRyoko1974 wrote:My understanding is that Yui was "absorbed" completely by EVA-01, and that Rei is partly a clone of Yui's genetic material and part Lilth (Adam?). But I can't recall if she has a sould, something about the room of souls being empty or something, I can't remember


And this is what I used to think... but that quote is sort of making me thing. Yui's mom dissapeared in the same room that Rei was 'born' -- sort of a coincidence, isn't it? That dialog had to have been a clue...

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 22:43 GMT

Keisuke-kun [ANF]
Sachiel
User avatar
Posts: 248
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

Reichu wrote:This insidious question just occurred to me... How can they reconstruct the body first, if an A.T. Field (ergo, the presence of a soul) is required for a human body to maintain integrity in the first place (those dratted clones nonewithstanding)? (Could this relate back to AA's idea about the destrudo being technologically "locked"?)


It would have to be. Thats why the bodies fell apart so easily. Rituko turned off the machines or whatever that did something to the LCL and the bodies just fell apart. They probably hooked that technology up to Eva-01 so they could recontruct Shinji's body.

My guess is that teh fixing the soul into the body part is just waiting for the soul to go back in. They can't control wht the soul does.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 23:24 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

Knives wrote:Which is more or less what I've been saying is the problem with your "ATF is necessary" for physical form concept Image ... but do you listen? No ... of course not.


Why are you calling it "my" concept? From what I understand, this is an idea fairly central to the NGE universe that most fans accept. Just because I do not feel adequately persuaded to throw it out the window is not due reason for you to start getting troll-ish about it.

Soluzar wrote:And this is what I used to think... but that quote is sort of making me thing. Yui's mom dissapeared in the same room that Rei was 'born' -- sort of a coincidence, isn't it? That dialog had to have been a clue...


Have you watched the episode recently? They are two completely different places.

The room where Rei was born:

Image

In contrast to "the place where your mother disappeared". Apparently before this place became a dumping grounds, it was where Lilith gave birth to EVA-01 and Yui had her contact experiment:

http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughte...re01_bottom.jpg
http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughte...re01_middle.jpg
http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughte...igure01_top.jpg

Originally posted on: 22-Sep-2004, 03:51 GMT

Knives [ANF]
Lilith
User avatar
Posts: 125
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

Reichu wrote:Why are you calling it "my" concept? From what I understand, this is an idea fairly central to the NGE universe that most fans accept. Just because I do not feel adequately persuaded to throw it out the window is not due reason for you to start getting troll-ish about it.

Image Clearly friendly sarcasm does not transfer into text. And by "your," I meant of course yours and the overall "accepted" idea. I think it's fundamentally incorrect, and for the reasons I gave in the ATF thread a couple days ago.

Originally posted on: 22-Sep-2004, 06:08 GMT

Knives [ANF]
Lilith
User avatar
Posts: 125
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

Reichu wrote:Have you watched the episode recently? They are two completely different places.

The room where Rei was born:

Image

In contrast to "the place where your mother disappeared". Apparently before this place became a dumping grounds, it was where Lilith gave birth to EVA-01 and Yui had her contact experiment:

http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughte...re01_bottom.jpg
http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughte...re01_middle.jpg
http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughte...igure01_top.jpg

Come to think of it ... isn't it another accepted (by the majority at least [not by me Image ]) view that Rei and her thirteen "sisters" were created accidently in an attempt to bring Yui back from Unit-01? ... it just seems odd that if you hold to that principle that this would be the room where Rei was created.

Originally posted on: 22-Sep-2004, 06:13 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

Knives wrote:Image Clearly friendly sarcasm does not transfer into text.


You have to be careful with all of this text-based stuff. There is a very thin line between "friendly sarcasm" and being perceived as some kind of Arschloch... I know from personal experience, since I've unwittingly managed to cross that line before!

And by "your," I meant of course yours and the overall "accepted" idea. I think it's fundamentally incorrect, and for the reasons I gave in the ATF thread a couple days ago.


Well, I would prefer if you stopped using phrases to insinuate that this is a matter of "your" idea versus "my" idea, "us" versus "them", and such... I certainly don't like "your" being used as if I somehow represent the common wisdom around these parts. Even if a lot of what I regurgitate is "common wisdom", it's a collective wisdom and hardly "mine". Sorry if I'm getting carried away; I just don't like being given "credit" where it is not mine.

Apologies if I'm making you frustrated in general, but if you look at those older threads that I bump here and there, it should become fairly obvious that I regularly revise my views -- provided I am adequately persuaded.

Come to think of it ... isn't it another accepted (by the majority at least [not by me Image ]) view that Rei and her thirteen "sisters" were created accidently in an attempt to bring Yui back from Unit-01? ... it just seems odd that if you hold to that principle that this would be the room where Rei was created.


I dunno if you've been following the conversation, but I'm personally not on the "common" boat with regards to Rei's creation, in that I think it was something that Gendo did quite intentionally after the salvage process had failed. Rei 1 and her innumerable clones (there are far more than thirteen) were created and Lilith's soul placed inside one... Perhaps Rei's so-called "birthplace" is where the soul transfer took place, prior to the creation of the ginormous gizmo Gendo and Kozo seem to be using for the transfer in #23. Honestly, who really knows.

Originally posted on: 22-Sep-2004, 20:34 GMT

Soluzar [ANF]
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 618
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

I guess I've not seen the latter episodes in a _long_ time. Since they were out on VHS no less. I should shut up and read the sensible peoples posts.Image

I've bought the DVDs not too long ago, but I agreed to watch them with my roomie and he's taking forever -- I could happily go at three times his pace. Maybe I need to skip ahead before I post stuff. I'm shutting up now. :-D

Originally posted on: 23-Sep-2004, 00:43 GMT

Knives [ANF]
Lilith
User avatar
Posts: 125
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

Reichu wrote:You have to be careful with all of this text-based stuff. There is a very thin line between "friendly sarcasm" and being perceived as some kind of Arschloch... I know from personal experience, since I've unwittingly managed to cross that line before!.

I simply figured ... well, to be honest, it doesn't matter what I "figured" Image , clearly whatever it was, isn't the case. I'll just continue (in my coridal, friendly discussions) as I have been until I become more accepted.

Aside from that, my inquiry over the author of the RCB may have been overlooked. I'm curious as to its author ... anyone know? (some form of evidence would be nice too Image [i.e. not just "Anno did, stupid" ... but like, if Anno had written it ... reference to a site stating this or something ...]).

Originally posted on: 23-Sep-2004, 00:53 GMT

Soluzar [ANF]
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 618
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

Knives wrote:I simply figured ... well, to be honest, it doesn't matter what I "figured" Image , clearly whatever it was, isn't the case. I'll just continue (in my coridal, friendly discussions) as I have been until I become more accepted.


[JOKING BIT]Oh, don't worry! Just do what I do and offend everyone with my lack of knowledge, skils at posting hastily without thouroughly thinking my ideas through, and general ditzyness. It'll either work out, or end with me getting burned at the stake, I'm sure! :-D

I mean, this is the proper way to get to know a new bunch of people, right? The best way to make friends -- annoy them to death by treating them to my (sometimes) half-baked ideas?[/JOKING]

PS: For anyone who suspects I'm nursing wounded feelings with this post, nahh! I just have a twisted sense of humor. Forget about it, when you get to know me, I'm... a real freak. It just takes time to see my inner maniac. Image Image Image Image

Originally posted on: 23-Sep-2004, 01:00 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 am

Knives wrote:I simply figured ... well, to be honest, it doesn't matter what I "figured" Image , clearly whatever it was, isn't the case. I'll just continue (in my coridal, friendly discussions) as I have been until I become more accepted.


If you've come here expecting people to automatically accept your ideas, you're not going to get too far. Ol' RahOtaku strolled onto the forum with rather grand aspirations of becoming "the next MDWigs", or some such thing, and all he really did as a result was irritate a lot of people and get himself banned; apparently, he didn't take at all into consideration what has made Wigs such a respected figure in the first place... But I digress. If you're going to debate NGE in a forum setting, I would be quite wary about treating your ideas as something precious; inevitably, a lot of them are going to go out the window, but it's all in the name of progress!

And, Soluzar, if it's any consolation, you haven't done anything to bother me so far. I wouldn't worry too much. Image

Originally posted on: 23-Sep-2004, 01:09 GMT


Return to “AnimeNation Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest