Shinji's Sexuality

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Goldarmy, 99% of the audience figured out that Rei's soul = Lilith (once EoE came out, at any rate) without having the RCB spell it out for them...

I think that number (which you pulled out of a hat I'll add) is a little over-estimated.

I'll be diplomatic about the situation and accept that it is accepted here (and by many) as "fact" that Rei's soul = Lilith.

I do this because I'm confident that once I form a clear argument against this, people will start coming around to the other side of the fence Image .

But I'm with Reichu on this one ... no need to bicker about that subject here. Bickering can be done on Reichu's post (which I did read entirely once and yet I still disagree with her on many, many points in regards to this issue [I'll be sure to review her thread before putting forth my defense of Rei {probably a couple months from now}]).

... what happened to the main topic? I keep trying to get this back to the subject, but it keeps coming back to Rei/Lilith (usually, I'm the one driving threads to that issue and getting yelled at for it Image )

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 13:51 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Shin-seiki wrote:That Shinji fundamentally relates to Misato as a surrogate mother-figure is a point that is driven home rather insistently in the (pre-3I) Instumentality Sequence in #26' (Sandbox Scene, Shinji's reaction to witnessing the Misato/Kaji boink-fest, etc...)


Having had a chance to review the script, it's interesting to note that it's Misato who makes the explicit identification with being (failing to be) a mother to Shinji.

As we're deep into Complementation here, it seems as likely that his questioning "mama?" is a response to some other mentality projecting its aspiration or otherwise representing itself as a mother to him. The "Euuuh. Other people screwing." reaction idoesn't strike me as being particularly significant one way or the other - about all it establishes is that voyeurism isn't his kink (striving desperately to get back on topic here). As Jack Cohen has pointed out many times, sex and sexuality is something that it is impossiblefor a human to consider in a completely rational fashion.

What I get out of this episode (and much of the Complementation) is that even breaking down the barriers between individuals by main force like this hasn't actually alleviated the fundamental barriers to communication. Which is not surprising - the fundamental basis of consciousness seems to be an elaborate game of self-deception rendering the injunction "Know thyself!" ultimately infeasible

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 15:43 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Goldarmy, 99% of the audience figured out that Rei's soul = Lilith (once EoE came out, at any rate) without having the RCB spell it out for them...


Putting myself in the 1% Image My immediate take-away was that it was her flesh that was sourced from Lilith. But then, as a strong-AI materialist, soul was not a concept that I was likely to reach for except as a metaphor for software plus execution context.

The mystical spin I was putting on things was to take the step from the Qabbalah to Alchemy - that Instrumentality was the Great Work, culminating in the Chemical Wedding, the reconciliation of opposites, of Adam and Lilith, with Rei being the Catalyst.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 15:56 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Mr. Tines wrote:[G]o far enough afield and this world-line's fan-fic becomes those histories' canon.

There seem to be enough "might have done this, might have done that" about the ending (including GNY, Rei making like John Woo and such) that I start to get attacks of postmodernism ("death of the author" and such).



This post makes my point for me even more forcefully.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 16:03 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Mr. Tines wrote:Having had a chance to review the script, it's interesting to note that it's Misato who makes the explicit identification with being (failing to be) a mother to Shinji.

As we're deep into Complementation here, it seems as likely that his questioning "mama?" is a response to some other mentality projecting its aspiration or otherwise representing itself as a mother to him. The "Euuuh. Other people screwing." reaction idoesn't strike me as being particularly significant one way or the other - about all it establishes is that voyeurism isn't his kink (striving desperately to get back on topic here). As Jack Cohen has pointed out many times, sex and sexuality is something that it is impossiblefor a human to consider in a completely rational fashion.
Well, that's a matter of interpretation; all I can say is that the vibe I get from Shinji's reaction at that point (I mean really, Misato is an adult woman: could Shinji honestly be so naive as to be scandalized by the idea that she engages in normal "adult" activities?), is that it's analogous to the typical "Ee-ew" feeling that most people get when confronted with evidence of their own parents' sexuality. I'm not alone in that interpretation; everyone I've ever discussed that scene with has agreed that that seems to be what Shinji is expressing there...
What I get out of this episode (and much of the Complementation) is that even breaking down the barriers between individuals by main force like this hasn't actually alleviated the fundamental barriers to communication. Which is not surprising - the fundamental basis of consciousness seems to be an elaborate game of self-deception rendering the injunction "Know thyself!" ultimately infeasible
It is possibly relevant in assessing what we see in this "Pre-3I" Instrumentality sequence, that, while it depicts the merging and direct interaction of Shinji and Asuka and Misato's minds, it is taking place before the Anti AT Field, wich removes all the barriers of self, and involves the actual merging of everyones souls, as opposed to simply opening their minds to each other...

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 16:11 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Knives wrote:But I'm with Reichu on this one ... no need to bicker about that subject here. Bickering can be done on Reichu's post (which I did read entirely once and yet I still disagree with her on many, many points in regards to this issue [I'll be sure to review her thread before putting forth my defense of Rei {probably a couple months from now}]).


"I can't lie to you about your chances. But... you have my sympathies. :wry smile:"

EDIT: As overwhelmingly skeptical as I am, the fact that you keep on taunting us with this massive revelation of yours is making me somewhat masochistically curious. (I'm sure that's what you wanted, right?) If you need any materials for your "defense" -- screenshots, etc -- let me know.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 16:12 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Reichu wrote:"I can't lie to you about your chances. But... you have my sympathies. :wry smile:"

EDIT: As overwhelmingly skeptical as I am, the fact that you keep on taunting us with this massive revelation of yours[/u] is making me somewhat masochistically curious.
"Promises, promises!" [I know, I know; I'm one to talk... Image]

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 16:29 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Well, that's a matter of interpretation; all I can say is that the vibe I get from Shinji's reaction at that point (I'm mean really, Misato is an adult woman: could Shinji honestly be so naive as to be scandalized by the idea that she engages in normal "adult" activities?), is that it's analogous to the typical "Ee-ew" feeling that most people get when confronted with evidence of their own parents' sexuality. I'm not alone in that feeling, everyone I've ever discussed that scene with has agreed that that seems to be what Shinji is expressing there...


There's a difference between intellectual understanding that this is the case, and being an unwilling audience to a copulation and the in-yer-face emotional impact. On a rarified intellectual level I know that various of my friends indulge (some even have the kids to prove it); but it's not something that gets into conscious thought except by deliberate effort in odd circumstances such as composing this post.

To the extent that I know my own reactions (the first time I ever saw a couple - complete strangers - hugging and kissing passionately, across a college courtyard, my gut reaction was "But that sort of thing only happens in books and movies!" despite knowing courtship had to be going on all around in the real world) I find Shinji's reactions unsurprising for an adolescent, without necessarily having any implication of viewing her as a parent.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 16:41 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Shin-seiki wrote:"Promises, promises!" [I know, I know; I'm one to talk... Image]


Yeah... How many have you promised us so far? The followup to the Ritsuko thing, the additions to "How I Came To Know Rei", the "magnum opus", the stuff about Rei falling apart into chunks... cripes, I must be missing something.

I'm definitely in agreement with Scott on the whole "Eeew, my surrogate mother had kinky sex with Kaji!" issue. It follows up nicely on the fact that, as Shin-seiki has pointed out, Misato (yes, the script confirms this) is the "mother" of the scary talking dolls. (Scott, can you post the two screenshots of this? The Manga ones are really too crappy for words.) After we (somewhat enigmatically, IMO -- it seems somewhat out of place) get to see Asuka riding Shinji's baloney pony, we hear Shinji and Asuka reinforce this concept of "mother":

Child-Asuka (crying):
Mama!

Asuka (sleep-talking):
Ma... ma...

Shinji (staring at Misato's cross):
Mama...?


(Hmm... Note the "staring at Misato's cross" business.)

...Followed by Misato's own doubts about her ability to "parent":

Misato (voice):
I wasn't able to become Shinji's mother after all...


Followed by her kinky boinking session with Kaji, after which, proceeding some commentary from the other characters, we get to hear Shinji's disgust:

Shinji (disgusted = thinking):
This is Misato? She does... this?


Might be interesting to see whether or not the script has any "comments" on the whole matter, but later...

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 17:04 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Mr. Tines wrote:I find Shinji's reactions unsurprising for an adolescent, without necessarily having any implication of viewing her as a parent.
You're assessing this scene in an atomized fashion, without taking into (the very necessary, IMO) consideration the dramatic and narrative context, which is that this a culmination, in a way, of Shinji and Misato's whole story-arc, and that this has eveything to do with the fact that she came on to him in #23, and that her dying gesture to him was to give him "an adult kiss", and promise him that "we'll do the rest when you get back". When their minds are complemented with each other in this sequence, we see a sorting out of the outstanding psychological and emotional issues between them (very briefly, that he needs her as a substitute mother, and she wanted him to "be a man", to the extent that she came to regard him as a potential lover)
From the RCB
"We'll do the rest when you get back..."


SEELE forcing through the Instrumentality Project (HCP), Gendou's maneuvering, and the JSSDF invasion of NERV.... Misato and Shinji rush through gunfire and smoke; two people with a delicate relationship: mother and son, older sister and younger brother, lovers, adult and child, superior and subordinate.... Shots ring out! As Misato covers Shinji, her legs buckle and the two tumble toward the back of the passageway. Tears and anger mix, and naked emotions clash. Choked words, exasperation, the baring of one's heart, affection, and the meeting of two people's lips -- passing from a mere brushing of lips to an adult kiss. In many ways, Misato was Shinji's first woman.


Similarly (and primarily), this sequence explores the outstanding issues between Shinji and Asuka, namely how enormously he hurt her (the "Kissing Scene" fiasco from #15, which was the start of her downward spiral in the later episodes, and the catastophic blow he unwittingly dealt her when he told her that Kaji was dead in #24, to which she reacted by running away from home, and eventually attempting suicide) and, more generally, the huge gulf of misunderstanding between the two of them...

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 17:24 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Shin-seiki wrote:You're assessing this scene in an atomized fashion, without taking into (the very necessary, IMO) consideration the dramatic and narrative context, which is that this a culmination, in a way, of Shinji and Misato's whole story-arc, and that this has eveything to do with the fact that she came on to him in #23, and that her dying gesture to him was to give him "an adult kiss", and promise him that "we'll do the rest when you get back". When their minds are complemented with each other in this sequence, we see a sorting out of the outstanding psychological and emotional issues between them (very briefly, that he needs her as a substitute mother, and she wanted him to "be a man", to the extent that she came to regard him as a potential lover)


This section is - to my mind - more Misato's problems than Shinji's and very much as per the "Case of" section she had to herself in ep#25 (or was it #26?)

ep#23 we went through recently - this is more obviously infantile (hold/be held) given that her next stop is Pen^2, not a local singles bar.

Ep 25' - reasoned argument and impassioned exhortation had both failed to get any sort of response - sex is the "nuclear option", her weapon of literal last resort, to try and blast through the autistic shell - Implicit thought process "Surely a 14 year old virgin will be eager enough to get some that that will get through to him." As it was, it was his mother's intervention that actually rescued him (in the short term).

Hence Misato's later thoughts of regret "I wasn't able to become Shinji's mother after all..."

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 18:13 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:38 am

Reichu wrote:Yeah... How many have you promised us so far? The followup to the Ritsuko thing, the additions to "How I Came To Know Rei", the "magnum opus", the stuff about Rei falling apart into chunks... cripes, I must be missing something.
Don't forget "Visual and narrative concurrences between EoTV and EoE", and "Visual concurrences between the DC eps and EoE"
I'm definitely in agreement with Scott on the whole "Eeew, my surrogate mother had kinky sex with Kaji!" issue. It follows up nicely on the fact that, as Shin-seiki has pointed out, Misato (yes, the script confirms this) is the "mother" of the scary talking dolls. (Scott, can you post the two screenshots of this? The Manga ones are really too crappy for words.)
They are still grainy in Renewal, but here you go:
Image

Image

After we (somewhat enigmatically, IMO -- it seems somewhat out of place) get to see Asuka riding Shinji's baloney pony,
in EoE, when you see Shinji on his back, and Asuka, or Rei, or Misato "on top", it is a visual depiction of the "Instrumentality as Sex" metaphor

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 18:14 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:38 am

Mr. Tines wrote:This section is - to my mind - more Misato's problems than Shinji's and very much as per the "Case of" section she had to herself in ep#25 (or was it #26?)
Actually it's the same scene; Shinji's reaction shots are precisely the same in both #25, and #26'. I think of it as #25 is showing this "incident" of Instrumentality from Misato's viewpoint, and #26' is Shinji's version of it.
ep#23 we went through recently - this is more obviously infantile (hold/be held) given that her next stop is Pen^2, not a local singles bar.
I disagree; the bit with Pen-Pen throws a lot of people off, but my take is that she is making a bitter jest at her own expense: "I'm so desperate for physical affection that, having been rebuffed in my attempt to get some age-inappropriate loving from a fourteen year old boy, I might even resort to "species-inappropriate" affection..." It's a joke, people (her turning to Pen-Pen), and it basically serves to set up the all-important lines "I see... anyone will do. It's me that is lonely" indicating that while she might have told herself that she was going into Shinji's room to "help" him, she realizes that it was really her own selfish loneliness that lead her in there. Note how "Anyone will do" comes up again in #25: "You'll sleep with anyone, won't you, Major?" (and Asuka, of course, lays it on Shinji in #26')

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 18:41 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:38 am

Shin-seiki wrote:in EoE, when you see Shinji on his back, and Asuka, or Rei, or Misato "on top", it is a visual depiction of the "Instrumentality as Sex" metaphor


Yes, I know that... It just seems sequentially out of place.

1) Sandbox sequence (related to concept of "mother")
2) PO'd Asuka riding Shinji
3) Back to "mother" stuff (Shinji & Asuka speaking of their biological mothers, then Shinji thinking of Misato as "mother")
4) Misato-Kaji boink-fest (still related to the "mother" theme)
5) NOW we get to the Shinji and Asuka part

I just don't get why Anno would interrupt the flow of the "Mother" section simply for the sake of the "visual metaphor".

Tines-san, as Shin-seiki pointed out in one of the threads linked to earlier, the way in which Misato's hand-grabbing gesture is referenced in #25 makes it EXPLICIT what she really had in mind. As Shin-seiki is fond of pointing out, Anno won't always spell things out neatly (by having Misato say something easily referenced, like "I'm a terrible person! I wanted to boink a 14-year-old!"), but he will do it through visual cues, or the juxtaposition of visual cues with somewhat vague dialogue.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 19:02 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:38 am

Shin-seiki wrote:In a way, it is the same scene


Yes.

Shin-seiki wrote:it basically serves to set up the all-important lines "I see... anyone will do. It's me that is lonely" indicating that while she might have told herself that she was going into Shinji's room to "help" him, she realizes that it was really her own selfish loneliness that lead her in there.


What we're disagreeing about here is what level her need was on, not that she came to realise that she was projecting her own reaction to bereavement onto Shinji.

Equivalently: For her, does holding someone always imply copulating with them; or was she (on some level at least) trying to be maternal in that instance, however awkwardly, however flawed the attempt? Her failure in that role is, after all, her unambiguous statement about her view of their relative roles come Instrumentality.

Shin-seiki wrote:"You'll sleep with anyone, won't you, Major?"


Was it chance that her choices were the ones where holding/being held had the least chance of being sexualised - or just that those were the ones that didn't require leaving her apartment? It's also likely she had access to Hyuga Makoto's phone number - it's not clear that he would necessarily have refused his commanding officer's request.

=============

EDIT/Afterthought

Of course it's possible I'm allowing incipient middle age to influence my thought patterns via-a-vis the insistent nature of sexuality at earlier ages. Image

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 19:23 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:38 am

Reichu wrote:Yes, I know that... It just seems sequentially out of place.

1) Sandbox sequence (related to concept of "mother")
2) PO'd Asuka riding Shinji
3) Back to "mother" stuff (Shinji & Asuka speaking of their biological mothers, then Shinji thinking of Misato as "mother")
I think it may be a reference all the way back to #09; Asuka plops into bed with Shinji, and something almost happens between them, then Asuka cries "Mama!". In #26', we see them actually "doing it" (metaphorically that is, except now, after all that has gone down between them, Asuka is snarling at Shinji that the very sight of him makes her sick!), and then, again we see Asuka (as a child this time) crying "Mama!"
4) Misato-Kaji boink-fest (still related to the "mother" theme)
5) NOW we get to the Shinji and Asuka part

I just don't get why Anno would interrupt the flow of the "Mother" section simply for the sake of the "visual metaphor".
Anno puts it first because it is intended to set up the sequence as a whole (Shinji and Asuka's minds are joined, and she is not happy about it one bit!), and, as I indicated before, it's what goes on between Shinji and Asuka here that is of primary importance to the narrative of the movie...

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 19:31 GMT

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Postby Ark [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:38 am

Can we at least agree that Shinji is straight?

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 19:32 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:38 am

I do. Kaworu was a loving friend.....done

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 19:38 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:38 am

Mr Tines, are you ignoring me? Image

If Misato did not have "impure" intentions, then please explain this scene.

Shin-seiki: Well, when you put it that way.

Ark: No. Image

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 19:39 GMT

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Postby Ark [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:38 am

I still can't believe Misato wanted to ride Shinji and Pen2.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 08:04 GMT


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