Shinji's Sexuality

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

Reichu wrote:And even though the ending doesn't actually show Asuka do this, we know that it happened anyway, as you pointed out here.

... if that had been the ending, I might have liked the movie more Image .

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 03:16 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

Reichu wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Goldarmy (Goldarmy regards the notion that all Rei's souls are of Lillith as absolute crap)
Oh no, not another one. Image_ Image Sheesh! Honestly, Goldarmy, I don't really see how it is even possible to watch NGE, and especially EoE, without picking up on the FACT that Rei's soul (in all three of her incarnations) is that of Lilith; it's the fundamental, essential revelation of the series, in the absence of which the story ceases to make any sense whatsoever... The point is hinted at numerous times in the course of the series, and is patently obvious in EoE

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 04:26 GMT

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Postby Aoshi_Shinomori [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

Goldarmy wrote:I disagree, while beneath her colorful and brash appearance lies hollowness insecurity isn't found to be there. Actually not having a single doubt gave a great strength to her shell. When she was forced to confront her hollowness and begin her journey to self-destruction, there wasn't much time for insecurity.

I disagree, if it wasn't there before, seeds of insecurity started to set in from the first battle when having Shinjii in her cockpit was instrumental in winning the battle underwater.

Goldarmy wrote:Even she could appreciate the value of a devoted slave that worships and adores her.

I would not call Shinjii a devoted slave, despite his sometimes pathetic disposition in general, with Asuka, Shinjii seems to stick up for himself a lot. He argues back.


Goldarmy wrote:Sure and Gendo has to stop acting like a jerk and act like a father. And Misato has to stop drinking. And Rei has to interact with more people. And Ranma has to think before he opens his big mouth. And Genma has to use his brains. And...

Asuka would have grown out of it naturally like any 14yr old would.

Goldarmy wrote:No. At best he will just gain a rival that hates him, or push her into suicidal path at worst.

Perhaps, in the short term, but a more mature Asuka would appreciate it.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 20:49 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

Shin-seiki wrote:This would seem to be an opportune occasion to bring up the other juicy rumor concerning Anno and Yuko Miramura; when the time came to do the voice dub for 'I need you', Miramura-san threw a snit, because she supposedly didn't like Asuka's final line, and refused to perform it as written: "I won't let you kill me, no way!" Anno then suggested that if she didn't like it, she should come up with something herself, and so Miss Miramura responded to that challenge with "Kimochi warui". Supposedly Anno was shocked and taken aback, but let it stand. Thus, Anno didn't write the imfamous final line; she did. MDWigs has suggested that line was perhaps directed more at Anno than it was in character for Asuka. In any case, if Anno had planned on ending with Asuka saying "I won't let you kill me", where does that leave your interpretation that she was defeated and resigned to death? (Also note that in one of the alternate endings, he had Asuka turn up and kick down her grave marker, which doesn't betoken an attitude of resignation either...)


In the alternate universes where EoE turns out differently, my alternate selves have most likely come to different sets of conclusions. Out of the ensemble of Asukas on the beach, some were defiant, some passive, and in this particular history, we see the latter - and that's only restricting discussion to the spectrum of outcomes reflected in this particular turning point (go far enough afield and this world-line's fan-fic becomes those histories' canon).

There seem to be enough "might have done this, might have done that" about the ending (including GNY, Rei making like John Woo and such) that I start to get attacks of postmodernism ("death of the author" and such). We already have two, uh, complementary canonical endings to deal with, after all.

====

The bathtub - My first thoughts were of general mental breakdown - there are many ways for the mind to shatter under stress. Perhaps some self-neglect, maybe some OCD, retreat into some autistic state - any of which would provide reason for medical (including psychiatric) intervention.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 15:27 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

Mr. Tines wrote:Perhaps some self-neglect, maybe some OCD, retreat into some autistic state - any of which would provide reason for medical (including psychiatric) intervention.


I think Asuka needed that the day she saw this:

Image

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 19:18 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:35 am

Shin-seiki wrote:it's the fundamental, essential revelation of the series, in the absence of which the story ceases to make any sense whatsoever...

... Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't make any sense Image . I see it as making more sense. It fixes a lot of inconsistences and is consistent with the message of the series. But I digress.

To get back on topic, as CapsuleCorpJX so eloquently put it:
"I don't think Shinji is gay."

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 21:06 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

Knives wrote:... Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't make any sense Image . I see it as making more sense. It fixes a lot of inconsistences and is consistent with the message of the series. But I digress.


Then share it, and we will merrily gather round like vultures and pick it apart. Image

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 21:23 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

Reichu wrote:Then share it, and we will merrily gather round like vultures and pick it apart. Image

You can try. Hee hee Image .
Later though. No time still to go into it ... I'll need to make ground rules too ... such as addressing one issue at a time, so I don't have to deal with 10 different questions at once. But that comes later.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 21:26 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

Knives wrote:You can try. Hee hee Image .


I've had countless theories systematically disemboweled in the past. Hell, it still happens. With a lot of the "unexplained" parts of NGE, theorization is largely hit-or-miss (but mostly miss), but I suspect that trying to re-explain what is already adequately explained for most of us (Rei-Lilith Kaworu-Adam) will just result in bloody carnage. I can't wait! Image

Later though. No time still to go into it ... I'll need to make ground rules too ... such as addressing one issue at a time, so I don't have to deal with 10 different questions at once. But that comes later.


Considering how interconnected a lot of the stuff in NGE is, I think you'll find addressing one issue at a time to be a futile hope.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 21:30 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

Reichu wrote:I've had countless theories systematically disemboweled in the past. Hell, it still happens. With a lot of the "unexplained" parts of NGE, theorization is largely hit-or-miss (but mostly miss), but I suspect that trying to re-explain what is already adequately explained for most of us (Rei-Lilith Kaworu-Adam) will just result in bloody carnage. I can't wait! Image

Hey Image ... you editted your post last second to make it less hostile (I think Image ).
But in regards to "my chances" (which you so diplomatically erased), I feel they're better than you'd think.

... I've decided to be diplomatic as well and delete a large section of what I had to say Image
>EDIT
(I was making a comparison to MDWigs theories and my own understanding, and people around here seem to go into a hissy fit when anyone compares themselves, even in the smallest of ways, to the Almighty MDWigs [sarcasm disclaimer for all text in (parentheses)]).
>End EDIT
I'll just say "adequately explained for most of us" is a rather subjective term when it comes to theories Image .

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 21:45 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

Knives wrote:Hey Image ... you editted your post last second to make it less hostile (I think Image ).


You weren't supposed to read and reply to it so fast!

(I was making a comparison to MDWigs theories and my own understanding, and people around here seem to go into a hissy fit when anyone compares themselves, even in the smallest of ways, to the Almighty MDWigs


Well, Wigs is very well-regarded and is one of the "oldtimers" who is still active (however infrequently) within the fan community. And a lot of his ideas still hold a lot of water. Granted, I don't think he is infallible; I put up a fit every time his "creation of Rei" theory is dogmatically cited. Wigs has expressed in the past that he actually prefers that people don't accept all of his ideas so easily, or treat everything he says as being "right" (or something to that effect...).

But anyway, I missed the original incarnation of your post, so I have no idea what I'm responding to.

I'll just say "adequately explained for most of us" is a rather subjective term when it comes to theories Image .


Hence the "most of us" part.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 23:08 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

Reichu wrote:Granted, I don't think he is infallible; I put up a fit every time his "creation of Rei" theory is dogmatically cited.

Is he one of those ones that says Rei was created as a result of the salvage experiment with Yui Image ?

If he is, and you think he's wrong, then I'm with you on that point Reichu (this would be cause for celebration, since it's rare [but becoming more common I think Image ]).

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 23:28 GMT

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Postby MDWigs [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

Reichu:

Well, Wigs is very well-regarded and is one of the "oldtimers" who is still active (however infrequently) within the fan community.


Yeah sorry about that "infrequently" bit. I know I said I would be back commenting with a vengeance and I haven't really (or at all) kept my word on that issue. At the moment I am attempting to ensure that I don't get kicked out of this fine country when my visa expires.

And a lot of his ideas still hold a lot of water. Granted, I don't think he is infallible; I put up a fit every time his "creation of Rei" theory is dogmatically cited.

Heh Image I really need to rewrite that up properly at some point too. I never did get around to that.

Wigs has expressed in the past that he actually prefers that people don't accept all of his ideas so easily, or treat everything he says as being "right" (or something to that effect...).


Basically in the past I had problems with many people taking my word as canon, and not questioning statements I made. I know I am not infallible, and the main reason I present my ideas to forums, the reason I am still here, is that I want to gain a better understanding of Eva. It's hard to do that when none of your ideas are challenged. Thankfully they are here! Image

I will do my best to start posting more. I'll try hard.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 23:37 GMT

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Postby MDWigs [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

Knives wrote:Is he one of those ones that says Rei was created as a result of the salvage experiment with Yui Image ?


I am indeed.

Is there a recent thread where arguments against this idea have been discussed?

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 23:40 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

MDWigs wrote:Yeah sorry about that "infrequently" bit. I know I said I would be back commenting with a vengeance and I haven't really (or at all) kept my word on that issue. At the moment I am attempting to ensure that I don't get kicked out of this fine country when my visa expires.


Well, it's not as if much is happening on the commentary front at the moment anyway. Quiddity has offered himself up as my script-slave and he is working on episode #03 at the moment, whereas I am just being a lazy bastard. Or "recuperating". Both ways work.

Heh Image I really need to rewrite that up properly at some point too. I never did get around to that.


By "rewriting", do you mean you're going to eliminate the part about Lilith's mini-legs having anything to do with Rei's creation? Image

I know I am not infallible, and the main reason I present my ideas to forums, the reason I am still here, is that I want to gain a better understanding of Eva. It's hard to do that when none of your ideas are challenged. Thankfully they are here! Image


I think that having one's ideas challenged by others is part frustration, part growth. It's a necessary part of keeping us all well-anchored to the Earth, otherwise we might float away from the air in our heads. Heh heh. I remember the fond old days when I was an impudent n00b and questioned just about everything that the "big boys" (you included) had to say. Even though I've calmed down slightly about lots of things, don't worry, I still don't hesitate to throw monkey wrenches as I see fit. Image

I will do my best to start posting more. I'll try hard.


You'd better, buster! :whips out Uzi:

Is there a recent thread where arguments against this idea have been discussed?


Well, Rei's origins get questioned on and off, though I can't exactly remember all of the instances. This was a recent one where I adamantly refute the notion that Rei's creation has anything to do with the 2014 salvage operation, but my argument there tends to get repeatedly glossed over, from what I recall. Good thing I'm stubborn.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 00:10 GMT

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Postby Goldarmy [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

Reichu wrote:I don't recall Shinji learning anything about Rei except that she was a bunch of clones, and, later, becoming increasingly convinced of her connection to his mother. Shinji doesn't have a damn clue what Lilith is or that Rei has anything to do with her.


Well this was something talked in a Evnagelion fanfiction forum I was a member of, that between scenes she also gave the information about Rei's origins.

Reichu wrote:"Hundred" seems like a bit much...


Actually I thought a thousand at first Image. But it must be a large number anyway since clones age normally, and they should age normally because otherwise act of destroying the clones becomes futile. How many clones do you think there were?

Reichu wrote:Event in the hospital room? Shinji wasn't fending off any woman's advances. He was masturbating to a comatose one.


Sorry for the mixed sentence. What I meant is that his masturbation to Asuka makes it a possibility that he won't give protest to Misato taking off his pants. Well actually not a protest that won't end in erm- sorry to be rude- in moans.

Reichu wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Goldarmy Strong, beatiful, independent, genius with a college degree, skilled pilot of Eva. Not a doll, certainly not a doll.

Asuka's "outstanding" qualities are definitely overrated. As mature as she'd like to think that she is, she is just an immature, insecure little brat. Does she have her reasons for being so? Yeah, but that doesn't make it any less true.

-Commander Goldarmy, the sarcasm beams lost their power sir.

Don't we see throughout the series that the shell made of her outstanding qualities is what it is, just a shell.

Reichu wrote:Asuka has far too many negative qualities to make her something worthy of worship. Image


-Commander, there was a power loss in beams again sir.

Reichu wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Soluzar No doubt, if Shinji had his fondest wish, it would be Kaworu's soul, in Asuka's body!

Well, like I said, Shinji could easily have gotten Kaworu involved if Kaworu actually represented his fondest wish. He wasn't; Asuka was.

Oh, Shinji-kun... If only you had slightly different priorities. Image


I ask again how do we know it didn't happen the way Soluzar said? Putting a picture of Kaoru with breast isn't helping Image.

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:I disagree, if it wasn't there before, seeds of insecurity started to set in from the first battle when having Shinjii in her cockpit was instrumental in winning the battle underwater.


I think first seed would have been set in episode 9 (the one in which she had to synchronise with Shinji). Insecurity just won't be the only negative emotion she felt during her downfall.

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:I would not call Shinjii a devoted slave, despite his sometimes pathetic disposition in general, with Asuka, Shinjii seems to stick up for himself a lot. He argues back.


Even a rat will fight back when cornered.

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:Asuka would have grown out of it naturally like any 14yr old would.


One has to ignore the fact that Asuka is neither ordinary nor normal to say this.

Aoshi_Shinomori wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Goldarmy No. At best he will just gain a rival that hates him, or push her into suicidal path at worst.

Perhaps, in the short term, but a more mature Asuka would appreciate it.


I don't see how she can mature in a time sooner than very long term, except hitting rock bottom.

Shin-seiki wrote:Sheesh! Honestly, Goldarmy, I don't really see how it is even possible to watch NGE, and especially EoE, without picking up on the FACT that Rei's soul (in all three of her incarnations) is that of Lilith; it's the fundamental, essential revelation of the series, in the absence of which the story ceases to make any sense whatsoever... The point is hinted at numerous times in the course of the series, and is patently obvious in EoE


"To make a theory without having data is a great mistake. People without realising try to adjust facts into theories instead of adjusting theories into facts."
Sherlock Holmes

What I see is people trying to put something that only takes place inside Red Cross book into series and movie. With it's existence the story cease to make sense.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 07:04 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

GoldArmy, read this thread. All of it. Please. And if I remember any of the various other threads where we had to deal with previous incredulous "Nuh-uh! Rei doesn't have Lilith's soul!!!" folks, I'll throw those at you, too. The topic is too obnoxious to have to start over every time we get a disbeliever. Image

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 20:05 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

Reichu wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Mr. Tines Perhaps some self-neglect, maybe some OCD, retreat into some autistic state - any of which would provide reason for medical (including psychiatric) intervention.


I think Asuka needed that the day she saw this:

Image

Needed, but clearly didn't get. A post-therapied Asuka would have given us a whole different character. Perhaps there's a need to be psychologically screwed up at some non-trivial degree in order to be able to be an Eva pilot - and the more the better, at least to begin with.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 09:29 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:36 am

Mr. Tines wrote:Perhaps there's a need to be psychologically screwed up at some non-trivial degree in order to be able to be an Eva pilot


In order to be able to be a main character in NGE, you mean. Image

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 09:34 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:37 am

Goldarmy wrote:"To make a theory without having data is a great mistake. People without realising try to adjust facts into theories instead of adjusting theories into facts."
Sherlock Holmes

What I see is people trying to put something that only takes place inside Red Cross book into series and movie. With it's existence the story cease to make sense.
Goldarmy, 99% of the audience figured out that Rei's soul = Lilith (once EoE came out, at any rate) without having the RCB spell it out for them...

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 10:30 GMT


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