Shinji's Sexuality

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 am

thewayneiac wrote:Mr. Tines & Soluzar: you are both missing the whole point of the Shinji/Asuka relationship. The reason she treats him so harshly is because he's wont respond to the obvious signals she's been sending him. She feels that he's rejected her. The reason he doesn't respond is because he's so socially inept he doesn't recognize them for what they are. He doesn't realize that she returns his affections.
Thank you!

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 02:57 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 am

thewayneiac wrote:Okay, it's time to shoot down the newbies with the big gun. HERE[/u] is a thread where it is quite thoroughly demonstrated that Shinji and Asuka are an item.

Mr. Tines & Soluzar: you are both missing the whole point of the Shinji/Asuka relationship. The reason she treats him so harshly is because he's wont respond to the obvious signals she's been sending him. She feels that he's rejected her. The reason he doesn't respond is because he's so socially inept he doesn't recognize them for what they are. He doesn't realize that she returns his affections.



Like I said, sometimes it's can be interesting to explore another angle. I think that the real truth lies somewhere in between, myself, but I don't feel like I should argue too much with my wound from your newbie-gun still smarting! Image

I'm done anyway, I put all my 'A' material for this theory in that big post, and I never really expected anyone to agree. Truth is, now I've seen your thread, I'm not sure I agree myself anymore. Not entirely anyway. So long as I didn't ruffle too many feathers, no harm done, right?

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 02:59 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 am

Reichu wrote:This is in #26', right after the famous "third eye" scene, after Shinji sees the school of CG Rei swimming around inside GNR. I've known about it for a while, but I've never been too sure what to make of it. Image;


Eek-Gad!

I never even noticed that! I don’t know what to make of it either. Maybe the Reis took his wish into them so completely, that they lost their own physical forms as a result? Seeing as how they were the gateway through which his wish would be achieved, and all.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 03:00 GMT

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Postby thelostyears [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 am

From what i've seen, Shinji is a teenage boy who's attractive to female's physical bodies BUT he also has feelings for Kaworu. That would lead me to think Shinji is a bisexual. But i doubt anybody can affirm his sexuality except for the writer himself.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 03:33 GMT

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Postby Charred Knight [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 am

thewayneiac wrote:Mr. Tines & Soluzar: you are both missing the whole point of the Shinji/Asuka relationship. The reason she treats him so harshly is because he's wont respond to the obvious signals she's been sending him. She feels that he's rejected her. The reason he doesn't respond is because he's so socially inept he doesn't recognize them for what they are. He doesn't realize that she returns his affections.


I have termed this the Rumiko Takahashi Romance, due to the fact that she has used it in all 4 of her main manga series. Ken Akamatsu also uses it since he based his writing style off hers.

The principle is that you put two people who love each other but can't express their feelings very well, they will then show their love in a variety of ways. Insulting a person to show love is not only found in EVA, but Ranma, and Love Hina as well, though Akane, and Naru are a lot nicer than Asuka.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 03:57 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 am

Shin-seiki wrote:That's one of the other examples of visually equating Shinji with Rei that I refered to in the Commentary thread.


Substituting Rei for Shinji (or vice versa) in similar scenes is one thing. Having a bunch of Rei develop Shinji heads but otherwise remain unchanged is a whole 'nother.

tv33 wrote:Maybe the Reis took his wish into them so completely, that they lost their own physical forms as a result? Seeing as how they were the gateway through which his wish would be achieved, and all.


I always wondering if we were to interpret them as the Rei actually swimming around inside GNR (which, BTW, I also have no idea what to make of...). The cut is an obvious reference back to the scene in #23, where we had the same shot of the clones lifting their heads to look at Shinji as he does his whole, "Ayanami... Rei??!" thing. Is this just a flash backwards of sorts (albeit a really fux0red-up one), or is it literally supposed to be happening inside GNR?

Shin-seiki, let us partake in your infinite wisdom! Or anybody else who has an idea, for that matter. ( :chants and bows: )

BTW, here is the thread where thekillingmantra originally announced this disturbing finding to all us fools who had missed it, and made sure to point me there, back when we were still corresponding... It's got a few good laughs. Image

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 06:53 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 am

thewayneiac wrote:Okay, it's time to shoot down the newbies with the big gun. HERE[/u] is a thread where it is quite thoroughly demonstrated that Shinji and Asuka are an item.

Mr. Tines & Soluzar: you are both missing the whole point of the Shinji/Asuka relationship. The reason she treats him so harshly is because he's wont respond to the obvious signals she's been sending him. She feels that he's rejected her. The reason he doesn't respond is because he's so socially inept he doesn't recognize them for what they are. He doesn't realize that she returns his affections.


He doesn't respond, yet they're an item? Run that past me again...

It may be my own fux0red past giving me a screwed up perspective on this, but in my experience - I was very much the Shinji myself when it came to courtship - if a girl reallly is after you, she's quite capable of being as unsubtle as it takes. If Asuka had really been wanting to get through to Shinji, when the kiss failed, she would have stuck her breasts in his face like she did with Kaji, then and there (rather than wait until Instrumentality to do it), not gone off to gargle.

Now looking at it from Asuka's PoV - if Shinji's list of possible girlfriends is short, her list of possible boyfriends is even more restricted. She's a seriously screwed up case, hothoused through university, not allowed to be a child, emotionally twenty-four going on four. The boys in school - well, the account of her abortive "date" prior to the kiss scene dismisses them - after all they are neither her intellectual equals nor capable of being emotionally supportive as she needs - and unlikely to be much use even if she had been after a purely physical relationship. The other men around NERV - well none are as urbane, sophisticated or sympathetic as Kaji, who was at least prepared to treat her as an equal on a business level in the various shipboard scenes, might even have regarded her in an avuncular fashion enough to give emotional support, but would not be the constant companion she sought. Kaoru might have been as good for her as he was for Shinji (until the point where the Awful Truth was revealed), but by that point she was out of the picture.

Shinji is just the only boy that she's forced to interact with in school, at home, at work, so there has to be some sort of accomodation between them. He's a threat to her self-image in that despite being her inferior in all other respects, he is an Eva pilot of comparable ability, and has not been neutralised by acting helplessly infatuated with her.


thewayneiac wrote:Remember also, their relationship is the most important element in the entire show: it's her rejection of him while their minds are linked that causes Shinji to say, "Let them all die!", triggering third impact.


I have no argument with that particular statement. Relationship - yes. The two have been forced together and strike sparks off each other. But at the end of the day, chips on the table, and all the players removing their masks, she shows neither sympathy nor affection.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 10:48 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 am

thelostyears wrote:From what i've seen, Shinji is a teenage boy who's attractive to female's physical bodies BUT he also has feelings for Kaworu. That would lead me to think Shinji is a bisexual. But i doubt anybody can affirm his sexuality except for the writer himself.

I still suggest this is like saying (coming from me as a Christian) I'm bisexual because I love Jesus.

It just doesn't follow logically.

Having feelings for someone doesn't mean it has to be of a sexual nature.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 11:00 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 am

Soluzar wrote:Far from his love interest, I see her role in the story as an antagonist, which is a theory likely to see me challenging Knives for the title of "Least Popular Theory". (J/K Knives Image)

Ouch, heh Image . It's true though, so far my "S^1" organ theory hasn't gained much ground, but hasn't been completely shot down. Then there's the matter of my "each individual Rei (I, II and III) and their individual souls" that's barely tolerated here (I'm taking a break on that one until I reconcile a few things and have the time to really organize my thoughts on the matter). Those are the only two I think I'm solo on Image .

Soluzar wrote:Surely it would be accepted at least that Asuka has never, not even a single time, even attempted to be nice to Shinji? She has humiliated him, berated him, accused him of things which are sometimes true, and other times horrendous distortions of the truth. They are not, to my mind, a romantic pairing in any way, shape or form. It is to be expected that Shinji knows this, deep down, but he has very little in the way of female company of his own age, and it is my contention that this is what drives him to his own occasional caring acts, in regard of Asuka.

Now ... back on topic:
You say "surely this must be the case" but let me just throw some "no ... this actually isn't the case" instances out there ---

On Asuka's part (sorry, I'm at work and really don't feel like referencing episode numbers - if you've seen the series, you'll know what I'm referencing Image ).
1.) Someone suggested that if Asuka had really been interested, she'd have thrusted her breasts in front of Shinji's face like she did with Kaji:
Thermal expansion anyone?
2.) Back dive into the pool: "Shinji! Look at me, look at me!"
3.) Into the volcano: "Look Shinji! A perfect sicsors dive!"
4.) When saved in the volcano, the smile on her face "Showoff"
5.) After abandoning her date, telling Shinji he was "less boring" than them (this is an Asuka-esque compliment)
6.) Phone-call from 'mother': "I hate the way he ignores me" and look of disappointment on her face.
7.) EoE -- doesn't she say outright that she wants him all to herself? (I've seen the series more times than the movie, but I think it's there on the "train").

On Shinji's part:
1.) Sunset scene in "Dance like you want to win," Shinji smiles up at Asuka and her determination.
2.) Phone-call from 'mother': He watches her for an undetermined amount of time (for all we know, she could have been talking for an hour).
3.) After the phone-call, he's interested in hearing about her.
... I'm sure there's some more on Shinji's part, but it should be understandable that there would be less for him, than for Asuka simply because (a)he's afraid of being rejected and (b)he feels the way he treats him is ambiguous (states this in EoE [I think Image] on the train).

So yeah ... there's my semi-clear defense of Asuka's cute little way of going about telling Shinji she digs him (of course, I was like you once until I really examined her character - the first time through the series, I despised her).

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 11:38 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 am

Knives wrote:On Asuka's part (sorry, I'm at work and really don't feel like referencing episode numbers - if you've seen the series, you'll know what I'm referencing Image ).
1.) Someone suggested that if Asuka had really been interested, she'd have thrusted her breasts in front of Shinji's face like she did with Kaji:
Thermal expansion anyone?
2.) Back dive into the pool: "Shinji! Look at me, look at me!"
3.) Into the volcano: "Look Shinji! A perfect sicsors dive!"
4.) When saved in the volcano, the smile on her face "Showoff"


#1 - That would be me. Image

That whole episode is the first after Asuka arrives in Japan. There she is, obviously used to being treated with deference for being the only pilot around, and suddenly finds that neither of the other two Children are impressed. The whole poolside scene looks to me more like attention seeking ("Look! I'm the sexiest, brightest and the best pilot too!") - and status games that neither of the others are capable of playing.

And when she's rescued from the vent, she responds with braggadoccio, albeit mixed with relief, rather than cede status in any way


Knives wrote:5.) After abandoning her date, telling Shinji he was "less boring" than them (this is an Asuka-esque compliment)


or damning with faint praise.

It is at this point, or rather after the kiss, that if she were serious about getting a reaction, that she would have escalated.



Knives wrote:6.) Phone-call from 'mother': "I hate the way he ignores me" and look of disappointment on her face.
7.) EoE -- doesn't she say outright that she wants him all to herself? (I've seen the series more times than the movie, but I think it's there on the "train").


Guess I'll have to check the context on the phone call; and as for EoE - there's a vast amount of contradictory stuff there, so we could trade quotes for weeks. She does say "If you can't be all mine, then I don't need you!", but that's immediately after saying "You really think you understand me!? You think that you can help me? That is so ARROGANT! You couldn't possibly understand me!!" - so I don't think we can get anything more than ambiguity and ambivalence there.

At best, it suggests that she would only accept him as a devotee rather than as a soul-mate.


Knives wrote:On Shinji's part:
1.) Sunset scene in "Dance like you want to win," Shinji smiles up at Asuka and her determination.
2.) Phone-call from 'mother': He watches her for an undetermined amount of time (for all we know, she could have been talking for an hour).
3.) After the phone-call, he's interested in hearing about her.


The latter two struck me as more wistful envy - Asuka appears to have something he does not, and longs for, a family that is not completely dysfunctional. As for the former, I'd have to check the context again, to see if there's more to it than can be explained by a "we have to work together, so this is the hassle minimization strategy" hypothesis.

Oh, and in EoE he throttles her on two different occasions.

Knives wrote:So yeah ... there's my semi-clear defense of Asuka's cute little way of going about telling Shinji she digs him (of course, I was like you once until I really examined her character - the first time through the series, I despised her).


First time through my reactions to Asuka went from "Oh, token red-headed stereotype" through to "I understand your pain" to (after EoE) "Ikari Shinji isn't fit to worship the ground you tread upon."

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 13:06 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:31 am

Mr. Tines wrote:I have no argument with that particular statement. Relationship - yes. The two have been forced together and strike sparks off each other. But at the end of the day, chips on the table, and all the players removing their masks, she shows neither sympathy nor affection.
What about the real, final, "end of the day"?
http://www.animenation.net/forums/s...687&postcount=8

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 13:15 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:31 am

Shin-seiki wrote:What about the real, final, "end of the day"?
http://www.animenation.net/forums/s...687&postcount=8


You're not getting me with a trick question!

At the ultimate, real, final, end of the day, she says "Kimochi warui."

However you slice it, I don't think she's impressed.

My reading of her almost Rei-like neutrality of expression while being attacked was one of resignation - having survived the end of the world for it all to come to this, that her colleague is now going to kill her, and she is powerless to prevent it - and her gesture one of pity.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 13:40 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:31 am

Mr. Tines wrote:Guess I'll have to check the context on the phone call; and as for EoE - there's a vast amount of contradictory stuff there, so we could trade quotes for weeks. She does say "If you can't be all mine, then I don't need you!", but that's immediately after saying "You really think you understand me!? You think that you can help me? That is so ARROGANT! You couldn't possibly understand me!!" - so I don't think we can get anything more than ambiguity and ambivalence there.

At best, it suggests that she would only accept him as a devotee rather than as a soul-mate.


That last sentance was a thought that I have had repeatedly, regarding Shinji and Asuka, and the thoughts that I have posted in this thread all basically sprung from that initial realisation. I still think that even if they are 'an item', that Asuka would exert a rather bizzarre power over her supposed love.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 14:11 GMT

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Postby Rabid Monkey [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:31 am

The way I see it, Shinji is unable to return the feelings of those who impose their attraction on him, because he is also unable to affirm whether or not their really attracted in the first place. We all agree that Asuka quite clearly wanted Shinji, but he wasn't aware of this attraction(being the naive and confused minded boy he is) and so, in the proccess of mus-understanding, made Asuka beleive she had failed and so created the string of abuse and neglect between the two and their relationship.

Kawrou was different, as he didn't attempt to exhibit the regular means of attraction that humans do, and made it abundantly clear how much he felt for Shinji when they met (you cant get much clearer than the words 'I love you' after all). Because Shinji was directly assured of Kawrou's feelings, he able to return them (albiet, not as strongly) as a form of love.

Kawrou's direct and straight arrow (no pun intended Image ) approach to exposing his feeling's, were more at home with Shinji's need for assurance.

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 15:07 GMT

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Postby Incisivis [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:31 am

What a fun thread. Image

I've said my peace on this issue several times, and thus don't feel the need to go into large detail.

I tend to think Kaworu was the "exception" to Shinji's heterosexuality. Kaworu is the living ideal, transceding sexual appeal because he represents gift-wrapped love, and Shinji was drawn to that, but I think at the end of it all, Shinji gravitates more towards Asuka. The story is more interesting that way; Asuka is the "real", while Kaworu is the "ideal". I consider Shinji heterosexual, for what it's worth.

And Reichu, you will be paying my therapy bills. Image

Originally posted on: 07-Nov-2004, 22:10 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:31 am

On the whole Shinji/Asuka thing - I think their whole relationship is intended to subvert expectations - they are set up as the respective "romantic leads"; then spend the rest of the time becoming more and more estranged.



Incisivis wrote:Kaworu ... represents gift-wrapped love


What a delightfully phrased and succinct summary!

Originally posted on: 09-Nov-2004, 18:54 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:31 am

Mr. Tines wrote:On the whole Shinji/Asuka thing - I think their whole relationship is intended to subvert expectations - they are set up as the respective "romantic leads"; then spend the rest of the time becoming more and more estranged.


Yet when all is said and done, that they have a future together seems to be the sad truth. Or happy, depending on whether or not the two of them can get their acts together. Or a little bit of both, if they manage to develop anything resembling a "healthy adult relationship".

I do find it somewhat perplexing how you have managed to brush off so many of the Shinji-Asuka dynamics in the show and attribute them to things like gestures of status alone. Mere posing, as if nothing were really there. As Wayne said earlier, to dismiss so much of what goes on between the two of them is to miss the point of their relationship.

Additionally, I think that somehow 'favoring' Asuka as being a somehow superior lifeform to Shinji or a stronger character is a rather flawed position to take. As far as I can see, Asuka and Shinji are both deeply, tragically flawed people -- neither somehow "better" than the other.

Originally posted on: 09-Nov-2004, 19:02 GMT

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Postby Rabid Monkey [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:31 am

Reichu wrote:Additionally, I think that somehow 'favoring' Asuka as being a somehow superior lifeform to Shinji or a stronger character is a rather flawed position to take. As far as I can see, Asuka and Shinji are both deeply, tragically flawed people -- neither somehow "better" than the other.


As far as there inner turmoil goes, they are both just as screwed up as each other, although it's apparent right from the get go of Episode 8 that Asuka has a much easier time in fabricating a more positive mood in herself (if one can call bossy and obnoxious 'positive). Shinji on the other hand tends to just let his actions speak for themselves, while Asuka fabricates self-worth and meaning in her self.

Originally posted on: 09-Nov-2004, 19:13 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:31 am

Mr. Tines wrote:On the whole Shinji/Asuka thing - I think their whole relationship is intended to subvert expectations - they are set up as the respective "romantic leads"; then spend the rest of the time becoming more and more estranged.
Mister Tines, since you fairly new here, I wonder if you're familiar with the rumor (which MDWigs seems find quite credible) that, over the course of doing NGE, Mr. Anno fell hard for Yuko Miramura, Asuka's VA, and that she essentially told him to get lost, and that supposedly we see his residual hard feelings played out in EoE (note that the Shinji/Asuka relationship scarcely even comes up in EoTV). It's hard to not read something into the fact that Shinji, who is Anno's stand-in for the psychological 'issues' in NGE, gets to strangle Asuka, not once, but twice, before it's all over.
Just thought I'd throw that out, since we're on the subject...

Originally posted on: 10-Nov-2004, 08:34 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:31 am

Of course, if that is true, Miramura-san doesn't have any qualms about reprising her role whenever the odd bit of 'interactive' NGE merchandise is churned out. Money talks, I suppose.

Originally posted on: 09-Nov-2004, 21:03 GMT


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