Van wrote:Half those similarities were complete and utter crap.

And what's the story with this Shinji_Ikari poster?

Some retard who wanted to give his butt to several alleyway dudes just so he could get money to make a crappy fan movie (I WISH this were an exaggeration). The topic went on and on and on with how it was copyright infringment, wrong, etc. But lil' Shinji would never get the hint.

It was quite the trip

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 09:15 AM

Oh god, wish I reading these forums when that thread was around lmao

Only lurking in Video Games forums for the last 3 months ftl.

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 09:17 AM

Quiddity wrote:LoL, and Escaflowne was in production since 1991, kinda hard for it to be claimed as an Eva ripoff (particularly when its absolutely nothing like Eva outside of being in the mecha genre).

Don't forget Pilot Candidate and Gundam SEED. Yep, I've even heard them proclaim a Gundam show an Eva ripoff

As far as Evangelion goes, I've expressed my distaste for it previously. RaXephon, I've not gotten around to watching yet. I've merely been trolling this thread for the hillarity.

I did want to add that Martian Successor Nadesico was a parody work in its entirety, just in case anyone might have accidentally supposed it really was an Eva rip-off. And Quiddity, are you sure that Escaflowne's production was 1991? A 5 year production cycle for a TV series? Maybe I misunderstood something?

I'll return to lurking now...

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 09:31 AM

heh, neat work.

in truth, there really is no denying the similarities between shows, but I thoroughly enjoyed both and I will leave it at that.

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 10:10 AM

Dr. Nick wrote:A bit off-topic, but do you consider NGE as a whole to be a symbolic/allegorical story?

I don't think it's any one thing. It strikes me as a work that was written with one focus, revised with another focus, produced with another focus, etc. I think you can see the different layers of focus in the final work, and that they don't always mesh very well. I used to decribe Evangelion as "a series that needed one last full edit", and I guess that's why.

I think that many of the characters, their personalities, their issues and their interrelationships are derived from the allegory of someone working through a mental problem. I don't think that allegory is necessarily the point of the entire show, however. I just think that problem served as the inspiration for that aspect of the show. Several of the Angels' abilities, I think, are also derived from thought problems related to that allegory.

There are other aspects of the show that I don't believe have much, if anything to do with that allegory, however. There's symbolism that doesn't have a function within that allegory. There's stuff thrown in just because it's cool, as homage to other works, as stereotypical genre elements, as different visual themes, etc. I think.

From what I can tell, the biggest hindrance most people have in deciphering Evangelion is that they try to put it all into one Grand Unified Theory. They start with the assumption that everything's intentional and related, then try to work out just what it all means. But some of it just doesn't mean anything at all, I think. I think some groups of it mean different things. I know some folks are fond of saying "it's a big puzzle to put together", but I see it more like three separate puzzles, with a few extra pieces from other puzzles thrown in at random. You can put the three major puzzles together and look at 'em separately, but if you try to force all the pieces you have into one grand puzzle, you're just gonna get a mess that doesn't fit well. At least, that's how I see it.

...and I think that's the most I've ever said on this forum about the meaning of Evangelion. Probably the most I ever intend to say, too.

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 10:24 AM

Van, I agree with a lot of the posts you make, but would like to take you up on your "raise the level of argumentation" challenge.

I think when you whole-scale discount Eva as unoriginal based on elemental similarities... namely
"end of the world apocalypse"
"protagonist's similarities to the cliches set by ms gundam"
you make the same mistake that EvaXephon does. You allow these allusions and similarites to create a smoke-screen that blinds you to the elements and devices(character and plot) that are original and unique.

your claim that nothing is original and it only matters HOW something is done now-a-days may be true. But that HOW in itsself can be very original.

An example, Ideon may have the apocalypse theme, but is it developed like Eva's psychotic Human seeking to cause the apocalypse to attain ultimate evolution while being attacked by ultimately evolved variations of humans that each carry a mesage of why humans should NOT seek ultimate evolution. I know, it's the cliff notes, but it is a unique and original way to tell a story.

I dont understand why so many could bash EvaXephon, who moronically claims that RahXephon lacked originality and at the same time hypocritically do the EXACT same thing regarding Evangelion within the same post. I have a hard time understanding crazed Eva fans, but a harder time understanding those who dont like it and feel they have to discount everything or anything it accomplished.

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 11:12 AM

Loopy wrote:Some retard who wanted to give his butt to several alleyway dudes just so he could get money to make a crappy fan movie (I WISH this were an exaggeration). The topic went on and on and on with how it was copyright infringment, wrong, etc. But lil' Shinji would never get the hint.

It was quite the trip

!!!!!!!



Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 11:48 AM

It's hard to believe that RX crew didn't watch Eva. And argument about Eva's unoriginality is a goal into the own net. "Look! Eva ripped off Ideon and it was COOL! Let's do the same!" Ridiculous? But there is no other series so similar.

There are no original things and any imitation is intentional and brings some species on the table. In Eva case it's mostly psychological aspects, freudism. It's a bit overwhelming for children show. In RX I'd say it's some kind of pure aesthetism, "France tradition". It looked too primitive for me and I disliked it.

Some part of similarities on EvaXephone site is superficial, but there are also very interesting. I think that it will be much more if to dig deeper. It would be good and more mature if RX fans instead of panic screaming helped to clarify what exactly RahXephone brought. Or you're afraid what could be found out?

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 12:05 PM

If we are going that route then both are a copy of Ideon, PERIOD!

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 12:52 PM

senseinobaka wrote:I dont understand why so many could bash EvaXephon, who moronically claims that RahXephon lacked originality and at the same time hypocritically do the EXACT same thing regarding Evangelion within the same post. I have a hard time understanding crazed Eva fans, but a harder time understanding those who dont like it and feel they have to discount everything or anything it accomplished.

His basis for saying that RahXephon lacked originality was due to the fact that it copied NGE. I for one, didn't make the claim that Evangelion was origianl. I however, think both shows take similar aspects of other series before them and use that as a basis for a plot, character development. Since both series are essential derived from others, with twists here and there, they are different shows and you will see similarities.

My point being, as since there were shows before Evangelion how can he just compare it with 1 show? More then half of the screenshots can be taken from shows that happened before Evangelion also. And some of those aspects which are taken from Evangelion, NGE could of taken from a show before it. So how can he prove that the parts that resemble Evangelion were taken from Evangelion and not a show in whcih Evangelion also drived aspects from? To say it is such a copy of Evangelion is retarted. Both shows take copies from others, and add their own.

I said before, the only reason he sees it as a copy is because he wants it to be.

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 01:22 PM

VSh wrote:It's hard to believe that RX crew didn't watch Eva. And argument about Eva's unoriginality is a goal into the own net. "Look! Eva ripped off Ideon and it was COOL! Let's do the same!" Ridiculous? But there is no other series so similar.

There are no original things and any imitation is intentional and brings some species on the table. In Eva case it's mostly psychological aspects, freudism. It's a bit overwhelming for children show. In RX I'd say it's some kind of pure aesthetism, "France tradition". It looked too primitive for me and I disliked it.

Some part of similarities on EvaXephone site is superficial, but there are also very interesting. I think that it will be much more if to dig deeper. It would be good and more mature if RX fans instead of panic screaming helped to clarify what exactly RahXephone brought. Or you're afraid what could be found out?

There is nothing to be found out. RahXephon didn't "bring" anything, but neither did Evangelion. You can play Mr. In-between all you want, but it's clear that you are biased as well. Everyone is biased. But that's the point. As the person above me said, you only see what you want to see. If someone who loves Evangelion and hates RahXephon comes into this thread, he'll have the same kind of mindset that EvaXephon had (even though he liked RahXephon). In the same way, a RahXephon fanboy and and Evangelion hater will come into this thread in a way that he won't even try to believe the evidence, no matter how good it may be. Unfortunately for EvaXephon, his evidence sucks. Explosions, doctors and blushing red-heads from episode, say, 4 of Rah, compared to explosions, doctors, and blushing red-heads in episode 24 of Eva does not make a good argument. His case is extremely weak. Maybe there is a deeper meaning in exactly how it is played out, as Desslock said. But that would be like saying the moral standards and lessons learned in Disney movies were plagiarized by Studio Ghibli films. And all EvaXephon wants us to see is the surface-level ridiculous kind of comparison that better fanboys have done before.

Oh yeah, and:

VSh wrote:In Eva case it's mostly psychological aspects, freudism.

So Evangelion ripped off of Sigmund Freud?

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 01:44 PM

Rydis wrote:His basis for saying that RahXephon lacked originality was due to the fact that it copied NGE. I for one, didn't make the claim that Evangelion was origianl. I however, think both shows take similar aspects of other series before them and use that as a basis for a plot, character development. Since both series are essential derived from others, with twists here and there, they are different shows and you will see similarities.

My point being, as since there were shows before Evangelion how can he just compare it with 1 show? More then half of the screenshots can be taken from shows that happened before Evangelion also. And some of those aspects which are taken from Evangelion, NGE could of taken from a show before it. So how can he prove that the parts that resemble Evangelion were taken from Evangelion and not a show in whcih Evangelion also drived aspects from? To say it is such a copy of Evangelion is retarted. Both shows take copies from others, and add their own.

I said before, the only reason he sees it as a copy is because he wants it to be.

Both series are apocalypse series, like Ideon. However Ideon is not the 1st apocalypse strory ever told. To claim that all 3 series are unoriginal is stupid.I have not seen Ideon but Eva and Rah both develop this theme in vastly different ways from eachother and from other stories with the same theme. That IS originality and uniqueness. EvaXephon doesnt think it is and has wasted a many hours of his life developing a website to prove his crazy premise, HOWEVER 10 pages of posts in this thread have exposed the very same attitude that EvaXephon had focused on Evangelion. To argue against EvaXephons cliams some are saying "Eva did the same thing". Thats no argument at all. You might as well pat EvaXephon on the back and say "you're right"

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 02:25 PM

senseinobaka wrote:Both series are apocalypse series, like Ideon. However Ideon is not the 1st apocalypse strory ever told. To claim that all 3 series are unoriginal is stupid.I have not seen Ideon but Eva and Rah both develop this theme in vastly different ways from eachother and from other stories with the same theme. That IS originality and uniqueness. EvaXephon doesnt think it is and has wasted a many hours of his life developing a website to prove his crazy premise, HOWEVER 10 pages of posts in this thread have exposed the very same attitude that EvaXephon had focused on Evangelion. To argue against EvaXephons cliams some are saying "Eva did the same thing". Thats no argument at all. You might as well pat EvaXephon on the back and say "you're right"

Not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing. Was just pointed out that I thought both shared similarities while keeping a somewhat original concept. Just because the plots are the same (apocalyptic) doesn't mean how it happens is the same. You can say the plot is unoriginal, but the way there can be. I have never seen Ideon either, but I was pointing to the fact that almost all shows derive some aspects from another. Not saying none are unoriginal, or anything. Maybe I just dont understand your post ^^.

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 03:01 PM

Leader Desslock wrote:I think that many of the characters, their personalities, their issues and their interrelationships are derived from the allegory of someone working through a mental problem. I don't think that allegory is necessarily the point of the entire show, however. I just think that problem served as the inspiration for that aspect of the show.

Thanks for clarifying. It's quite a well-known fact that Shinji, and the other characters in a lesser extent, are Anno's alter egos, and thus it's a reasonable claim that the story itself reflects his struggle through near-suicidal depression. While I acknowledge that the story has such meta-level meanings, I've personally never cared about them. I view NGE as "just another" science fiction show - you know, space aliens, cultists, scientists behaving badly, the usual fare - but I know there are fans who feel completely the opposite way and are only concerned about the show's "message", the values it conveys etc. And both are completely valid ways of seeing it, IMO.

senseinobaka wrote:that each carry a mesage of why humans should NOT seek ultimate evolution.

Just a side note, but that part is an untrue internet legend, just like the "Evas were modelled after the four Barons of Hell" claim.

VSh wrote:In Eva case it's mostly psychological aspects, freudism. It's a bit overwhelming for children show.

Understatement of the century! (In before cosmic vaginas.)

Anyhow, I'll show you infidels how to explain the main difference between Evangelion and RahXephon:

Evangelion was like this, whereas RahXephon was more like this.
Similarly, where Zeta Gundam was like this, Gundam SEED Destiny was like this (and Kira like this).


(Yes, it's a recycled joke. Sue me.)

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 04:01 PM

Dr. Nick wrote:Thanks for clarifying. It's quite a well-known fact that Shinji, and the other characters in a lesser extent, are Anno's alter egos, and thus it's a reasonable claim that the story itself reflects his struggle through near-suicidal depression. While I acknowledge that the story has such meta-level meanings, I've personally never cared about them. I view NGE as "just another" science fiction show - you know, space aliens, cultists, scientists behaving badly, the usual fare - but I know there are fans who feel completely the opposite way and are only concerned about the show's "message", the values it conveys etc. And both are completely valid ways of seeing it, IMO.


Just a side note, but that part is an untrue internet legend, just like the "Evas were modelled after the four Barons of Hell" claim.


Understatement of the century! (In before cosmic vaginas.)

Anyhow, I'll show you infidels how to explain the main difference between Evangelion and RahXephon:

Evangelion was like this, whereas RahXephon was more like this.
Similarly, where Zeta Gundam was like this, Gundam SEED Destiny was like this (and Kira like this).


(Yes, it's a recycled joke. Sue me.)

First time I seen it. lol

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 04:11 PM

Rydis wrote:Not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing. Was just pointed out that I thought both shared similarities while keeping a somewhat original concept. Just because the plots are the same (apocalyptic) doesn't mean how it happens is the same. You can say the plot is unoriginal, but the way there can be. I have never seen Ideon either, but I was pointing to the fact that almost all shows derive some aspects from another. Not saying none are unoriginal, or anything. Maybe I just dont understand your post ^^.

we are probably in agreement

my point is..
Ideon, Eva, and Rah are all 3 original in nature despite sharing the elemental theme of apocalypse.

another point being..
it's dumb to call a series unoriginal just because on some level it may share a theme, idea, or element that has been done.

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 04:13 PM

Van wrote:Half those similarities were complete and utter crap.

Sorry, I meant "Even if they were good similarities"
to be taken as "they weren't, but if they were." Damn the interweb for not being able to convey tones of voice :p

And what's the story with this Shinji_Ikari poster?

Oh... god... *dies*

*comes back to life* I steered clear of that thread... it hurt my eyes... oh the burning. _

*dies again*

Originally posted on: 07.25.2006, 09:26 PM

There was only one instance of this argument ever being brought up that I can still appreciate.

http://www.therossman.com/rrr/anime/rahxephon.html

Originally posted on: 07.26.2006, 11:53 PM

A few points.

I'm only up to episode 10 of Rah so I won't pass definitive judgement yet.

I wouldn't call anything a rip off of anything else because I don'tknow what was in the writer's mind. However Rah does have a general similarity to Eva and a lot of specific similarities so far.

This I imagine is why it is always rated against Eva. I'm concerned with the quality though.

I wouldn't even say they're in the same league. Rah comes across as a fairly typical anime lacking the emotional depth that Eva had (as many do) in the first part of the series.I'd even say that Big O showed more creativity and that's never compared to EVA for some reason.

Secondly my biggest problem is that Rah so far seems to be very cryptic. I'm up to episode 10 and I still don't really have any idea what's going on. I understand the basic plot but there are a lot of things that I'd consider quite central to the plot that are left unexplained. For example Ayota never seems to question why he is chosen to pilot the RahXephon. At least in Eva you're given an explaination (Marduk institute) even though it later turns out to be a lie. Also he never contemplates whether the fact that his mother is alien means he's an alien too and what about his classmates? Infact he doesn't seem to be that bothered by this at all. I'm sure this will be explained eventually but it seems to indicate quite poor story telling to leave such obvious points hanging.

I also find Rah's attempts at surrealism (maybe not the best word) somewhat lacking. To compare, EVA throws out occasional little mysteries in the first part such as Shinji seeing Rei on the street in ep1 which is only explained in EoE.Rah so far in contrast continually has scenes and dialogue that have no explaination.

Having two girls talking gibberish for a good section of the series isn't creative in my opinion.It's just boring and an pointless.Rei is still able to be mysterious without having her saying bizarre statements that have no comprehendable explanation.Even in her little introspection scene in ep14 what she's saying is understandable even if you don't know why she's saying it.

Also the ending theme is wack.

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 08:08 AM

You would have to watch both Eva and Rah,i have and i can say that both are indeed different.But like i said before,Rah has some elements from Eva.

Evangelion was the first to use a lot of the themes now common with the mech genre,so many could say that any to use those themes..could be a "rip-off" of Evangelion.

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 08:07 PM