Series ending, movie ending... same? different?

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Shin-seiki [ANF]
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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:58 pm

Animematt55 wrote:wasnt Rei's soul a copy of Shinji's mothers soul?

Rei is physically a clone of Yui, but her soul is that of Lilith, just as Kaworu's is that of Adam. In the Director's Cut of #24, Kaworu says to Rei "You are like me. We've both taken the Lilim's form as our body to live on this planet". That doesn't make much sense for him to say such a thing, if Rei's soul was from Yui...

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 04:14 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:58 pm

Shin-seiki, I'm not sure if you missed this or what, but I originally bumped this thread because I had a question for you back in Post #67 that I don't believe you addressed. If you have a chance to sate my curiosities, I'll love you even more.

Originally posted on: 05-Oct-2004, 02:38 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:58 pm

Reichu wrote:This is an issue I was wondering about recently, so this post popped out of me when I was doing the routine "checking about-to-be-axed threads" bit: Quote: Originally Posted by Shin-seiki You need to look at that in its proper context: almost all of eps 25 and 26 is presented in the form of dramatic monologues/dialogues that reflect the internal psychological environment of the characters (principally Shinji, but also Asuka, Rei, and Misato) in the lead up to, and aftermath of, Third Impact. The first half of Ep25, 'The World Ending', focuses in turn on 'The First Character' Shinji, 'The Second Character' Asuka, and 'The Third Character' Rei. In the first section Rei, and later Asuka, appear with Shinji in the roles of devil's advocate, posing harsh questions and questioning his motives. (Of course, they're not literaly there with Shinji; they represent his self-doubt.)


Whoa! This seems to go against everything that you've taught us. Characters 'not literally being there'? What happened to 'taking everything at face value'? If Shinji is shown talking to these characters in an environment as fux0red-up as EoTV, do we have much reason to believe that he isn't REALLY talking to them? Um, I don't want to paint myself into a corner by being doctrinaire about "taking everything we see and hear at face value". Perhaps I should put it as "One's default perspective from which one assesses the significance of a given scene or incident in NGE, should be to take what one is seeing and hearing at face value, insofar as such an assessment can logically hold water." In the vast majority of cases, that rule of thumb holds up, and in those rare instances where Anno shows us stuff that is not to be taken as literally happening (e.g. the Sandbox Scene in #26', or the Alternate Universe in #26), he generally gives us indications of the unreality of what we're seeing.

My take on EoTV as whole is that it is not so much the end of NGE, as it is about the end of NGE; by which I mean that it functions at a certain removal from the straight-forward narrative of #25', and of (most of) #26'. Anno took the ending that he had written, and, because of the various budget and censorship problems that prevented him from giving us the "real" ending, transformed it into an internal psychological drama, and thus we are seeing a sort of "play" about Third Impact being presented on an auditorium stage.

As for what we see going on with Shinji, Rei, and Asuka in #25 'The World Ending', I would say that Anno is using the dramatic devices that he utilizes to represent the merging of people's minds thru Instrumentality in the later parts of EoTV right from the get-go, probably as a way of getting around having to animate any of the crazy, violent events of 'AIR'. The fact that Shinji and Rei, and later Shinji and Asuka, and later still Asuka and Rei, are presented as interacting onscreen in 'The World Ending' has to be, in my opinion, a dramatic device, and cannot be taken as literally happening, even in an "Instrumentality" sense, because we know that in 'AIR' Shinji and Rei never got near each other, and, while Shinji and Asuka were briefly in the same room, we know that Asuka was in no shape to have anything to say at that point; and, of course, all of this is before Shinji dissolves in the entry plug and all the weird head-trip stuff starts. For these reasons, I would say that it just doesn't hold up logically, to take the stuff with Shinji interacting with Rei and Asuka in 'The World Ending' as "really happening"; it's just Anno's way of dramatizing the psychological state that Shinji and Asuka are in, in this part of the story.

Originally posted on: 05-Oct-2004, 15:40 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:58 pm

It's wierd that I adhere more strictly to the, "Shin-Seiki Doctrine", than does Shin-Seiki, but I suppose it can't be helped. While there are occasionally hallucinations in EVA, for instance the scene in ep. 4 where the buildings seem to be closing in on Shinji, the first half of 25 is not one of them.

Shin-Seiki wrote:Um, I don't want to paint myself into a corner by being doctrinaire about "taking everything we see and hear at face value". Perhaps I should put it as "One's default perspective from which one assesses the significance of a given scene or incident in NGE, should be to take what one is seeing and hearing at face value, insofar as such an assessment can logically hold water." In the vast majority of cases, that rule of thumb holds up, and in those rare instances where Anno shows us stuff that is not to be taken as literally happening (e.g. the Sandbox Scene in #26', or the Alternate Universe in #26), he generally gives us indications of the unreality of what we're seeing.



What is the, "indication of unreality", in the first half of 25?

in those rare instances where Anno shows us stuff that is not to be taken as literally happening (e.g. the Sandbox Scene in #26', or the Alternate Universe in #26), he generally gives us indications of the unreality of what we're seeing.



I agree that the sandbox scene isn't really happening, i.e., it's not an interraction of the characters' minds, but I think it's likely that it does represent an actually memory, with Misato and the Rei and Asuka dolls substituting for the mother and children from the real-life incident, and Nerv headquarters substituting for the sandcastle they actually built.


My take on EoTV as whole is that it is not so much the end of NGE, as it is about the end of NGE; by which I mean that it functions at a certain removal from the straight-forward narrative of #25', and of (most of) #26'.



Exactly, so why do you insist that the, "same scenes", are happening at the same moments in the two, e.g. the, "It's time, Rei", scene.

The fact that Shinji and Rei, and later Shinji and Asuka, and later still Asuka and Rei, are presented as interacting onscreen in 'The World Ending' has to be, in my opinion, a dramatic device, and cannot be taken as literally happening, even in an "Instrumentality" sense, because we know that in 'AIR' Shinji and Rei never got near each other, and, while Shinji and Asuka were briefly in the same room, we know that Asuka was in no shape to have anything to say at that point; and, of course, all of this is before Shinji dissolves in the entry plug and all the weird head-trip stuff starts.



Again, if the TV ending is about the movie ending instead of being the movie ending, why insist that the, "Shinji disolves", scene must be taking place in the series at the same point it takes place in the movie? In fact, we need to remember that it happens midway through ep. 25 in the series, but not until 26', in the movie. You are imposing a suprining amount of linearity upon the TV ending considering your contention that it is just, "about the ending."

And here's an interesting point: What about the scenes with Misato? Now as you've pointed out before the, "boink", scene must be after their minds are connected, because Shinji is seeing Misato's memories, but what about the scenes where Misato is in the chair? Because these come after the commercial break, are they to be considered as actually happening, while the scenes with Rei, Asuka, and Shinji are not, even though they look exactly alike? Or is this section of the episode somehow contain a mixture of instrumentality + Misato's hallucinations?

Isn't this a big house of cards? I think that my theory is a lot more simple and explains what's happening without recourse to, "It's all in their heads." All of 25 takes place after Shinji disolves in 26'. The bits and pieces of the movie we see in 25, "It's, time.", Asuka underwater, the corpses, Shinji disolving, are flashbacks to things that have already happened in the movie, not flash-sideways to things to are happening in the movie at that very instant.

The way you are looking at it, Shinji, Asuka, Rei, and to some extent possibly even Misato, are all engaging in bitter self examination, which coincidentally involves hallucinatory interactions with the other characters, Shinji while he was cowering under the stairs, Rei while she was soaking in the tank, Asuka while she was in the hospital or while she was underwater, and Misato, who knows when?

Why make it this complicated and confusing when you can adhere to your own principle and say that if Anno shbows them interracting in an instrumentality-like setting, they are interrecting in an instrumentality like setting. As I asked above, what is the indication of unreality that is causing you to disbelieve what Anno is showing us?

Originally posted on: 08-Oct-2004, 19:16 GMT

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Postby bjamieson [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:58 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Brendan's argument is famously weak; dependent as it is on citing an, at best, ambiguous, 'external' source, of debatable canonicity.



"Famously weak"? I think that's a little much. Image

First lets look at outside sources anyway, just for fun. Evangelion is in very many ways based on Tomino's "Space Runaway Ideon". The big influence being the concept of Instrumentality.

To quote a clear explanation: It is later made clear than Id is actually the consciousness of all the people of the civilization that created the Ideon, merged into a single entity. The Id has a mind of its own and is sick with the war like nature of both planets. Humanity and the Buff Clan have multiple chances to reconcile themselves, but their war-like mentality is too entrenched and the Id, like SEELE in Evangelion decide that humanity is far too corrupt to continue living in this state. Everyone will die and be merged into a single entity, the Id itself and thus corruption, war, and the like will vanish from the universe entirely.

Sound familiar?

Ideon ends with humanity dying and merging with "life/Id" to form a perfect entity - and in the final moments of the final episode, they sing "Happy Birthday"

Sound familiar?

Granted, this is Ideon - not Evangelion. But Anno made it very clear that in many ways Eva is an homage to Ideon. It's very clear, in Ideon's case, that that humanity was "complemented".

But like I said - that's Ideon, not Evangelion.

So moving along -

Kazuya Tsurumaki interview, RCB:

-- What did you think about developments during the second half of the TV series?
KT - I didn't mind it. The schedule was an utter disaster and the number of cels plummeted, so there were some places where unfortunately the quality suffered. However, the tension of the staff as we all became more desperate and frenzied certainly showed up in the film.


-- I see.
KT - About the time that the production system was completely falling apart, there were some opinions to the effect that, "If we can't do satisfactory work, then what's the point of continuing?" However, I didn't feel that way. My opinion was, "Why don't we show them the entire process including our breakdown." You know -- make it a work that shows everything including our inability to create a satisfactory product. I figured that, "In 10 years or so, if we look back on something that we made while we were drunk out of our minds, we wouldn't feel bad even if the quality wasn't so good."

I think this is a pretty big indication of the mindset of the crew and a sense of "surrendering" that came into the final TV episodes of Eva. "Why don't we show them the entire process, including our breakdown." - is a pretty bold statement, and even bolder endeavor. I think a lot of the TV ending is based in this feeling of dissatisfaction and disagreement - to the point of the crew throwing up their arms together and saying, "We give up."

But, I mean, whatever...

Originally posted on: 09-Oct-2004, 00:46 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:58 pm

bjamieson wrote:But, I mean, whatever...



Everything that you posted is interesting and all, but the fact remains that in determining how EoTV concludes, the most vital clues are to be taken from the show itself -- not Ideon, not Bandai Carddass, not even an interpretation of Tsurumaki's words. The idea that Shinji has rejected Instrumentality is well-supported by the actual script. Of course, you have debated the issue to the point where your mind is probably set... Regardless, primary sources like the script should be placed above secondary or tertiary sources of evidence.

Originally posted on: 09-Oct-2004, 01:02 GMT

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Postby bjamieson [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:58 pm

Reichu wrote:Regardless, primary sources like the script should be placed above secondary or tertiary sources of evidence.



But the thing is - and the reason this whole issue exists - is that the TV ending contradicts itself. And it does so from the get-go.

It was 2016 A.D.
The thing that people lost, in other words, the complementation of the mind has begun. However, there is not enough time to describe the entire process.
Therefore, we will examine the complementation of the mind of a single boy named Ikari Shinji.


Can you honestly say that this doesn't sound like Shinji is simply the example? This opening title card immediately alludes to the idea that Shinji is simply the example of the process of complementation, and that he will be complemented - no choices, nothing. "we will examine the complementation of the mind". It's a very mechanical, sterile, opening. It's very matter of fact. Nevermind that the TV ending is suddenly in 2016 while the EoE ending is in 2015.


All I'm saying, at this point, is that I don't think you can so easily rule out the idea that the TV ending and film ending is different. And I especially don't think you (generic "you") can call the reasoning behind that "weak". Yes, the final script is important - but I almost would say the ideas and mentality that went into the script are more important when it comes to analyzing it than the script itself. You can't discount the feelings of the crew and staff when you're arguing things like this, since it all comes down to a "feeling".

It's like saying that the brutal murder of Roman Polanski's wife had nothing to do with the ending of Chinatown. It's the people and their feelings and experiences that ultimately translate from the script to the screen. In my opinion.

Originally posted on: 09-Oct-2004, 01:42 GMT

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Postby Quiddity [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:58 pm

Ideon ends with humanity dying and merging with "life/Id" to form a perfect entity - and in the final moments of the final episode, they sing "Happy Birthday"
Sound familiar?



Just to clarify, since you didn't include the full quote; at the end of the Ideon movie after everyone has died we see their souls, as part of the Id itself singing 'Happy Birthday Dear Children'. 'Children' refers not just to the literal children but to the souls of everyone. Evangelion TV of course ends with the text message on screen "And to the children, Congradulations!" which is an obvious reference to that scene from Ideon. I wonder if there's more of a meaning to that line than just the Ideon reference, after all like in Ideon 'Children' had more than just a literal meaning in Eva.

Originally posted on: 11-Oct-2004, 02:42 GMT

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Postby Atma [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:58 pm

Reichu wrote:The idea that Shinji has rejected Instrumentality is well-supported by the actual script. Of course, you have debated the issue to the point where your mind is probably set... Regardless, primary sources like the script should be placed above secondary or tertiary sources of evidence.

I wholly agree.

I thought that Shinji unambiguously rejected Instrumentality in the TV series, even if it did happen in the last 60 seconds. Shinji says something along the lines of, "That's right! I am myself! I am neither more nor less than myself! I want to be myself!"

The manifestation of "Self" IS the AT Field, and embracing one's "Self" IS the rejection of Instrumentality. The entire philosophical question of Instrumentatlity is whether the personal identity ("I" or "self) is expendable for the sake of dissolving the barriers between us.

In the end it's not even a true dilemma, in the sense that in an Instrumental state, the self would no longer exist to appreciate its fraternity with the rest of the race. And the same is true for everyone else. In other words, "Instrumentality" is truly just a euphemistic way of saying "non-existence". And then the question becomes an existential one: "Is non-existence preferrable to tragic existence. In EoTV and EoE, Shinji decides that it is not, and thus humanity returns to its various selves, and the AT Fields come back up.

Whether you agree with Shinji's decision is irrelevant; he rejects Instrumentality, as indicated by his last words. As I said before I digressed, Shiji says straight up: "That's right! I am myself! I am neither more nor less than myself! I want to be myself!"

The fact that Shinji makes the same decision in EoE (which is the more authoritative of the two endings anyway) only strengthens my position on this.

Case closed, as far as I'm concerned.

Originally posted on: 11-Oct-2004, 05:20 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

bjamieson wrote:"Famously weak"? I think that's a little much. Image

When Reichu bumped this thread, and made a point of drawing particular attention to that line, I wondered whether you might have something to say about it. Image I hope you don't take it personally; in fact, I, like most NGE fans on this and other forums, have a lot of respect for you, and highly appreciate your putting together and keeping up your website, which is an invaluable resource for us Eva-geeks. (But you took down the Directors Cut section! Image ) I remember the first time I came across your FAQ, I was like "Yess!! Finally, someone who knows what he's talking about!" (Favorite line: "No one evolved into anything") However, over time, as my own comprehension of NGE improved and evolved, I realized that there were some issues where you and I parted company; the interpretation of the TV ending being one example, of course, or your curious assertion that the scene in #24', where Asuka finds out from Shinji that Kaji is dead, and the "Kitchen Scene" in #26 that ends with Shinji strangling Asuka, have nothing to do with each other, when, in fact, those two scenes have everything to do with each other...

When I characterize your argument that Shinji is accepting Complementation in #26 as "famously weak", I am simply stating my assessment of the weight of your argument as presented in your FAQ vs that of MDWigs that he presents on his website; I understand that the two of you have argued this issue back and forth on other forums, but I never had the chance to read the threads in question, so I don't know if you ever bothered to address the points that Wigs made about such matters as Misato telling Shinji "Considering that, the real world itself is not always bad", and so on. I've seen people who attempt to argue the "Shinji accepts Complementation" POV (who invariably quote or paraphrase what you have to say in your FAQ) say "B-but when she says the "real world", she really means the word of Instrumentality, cuz that's the only world that exists at this point, so that's what Shinji is talking about when he says 'I want to stay here! I can stay here!"; and the rest of us just roll our eyes and say "Yeah, right..."

bjamieson wrote:It was 2016 A.D.
The thing that people lost, in other words, the complementation of the mind has begun. However, there is not enough time to describe the entire process.
Therefore, we will examine the complementation of the mind of a single boy named Ikari Shinji.


Can you honestly say that this doesn't sound like Shinji is simply the example? This opening title card immediately alludes to the idea that Shinji is simply the example of the process of complementation, and that he will be complemented - no choices, nothing.

I dunno, I never really got that sense from those lines... I would say rather, aside from the fact that Shinji is the main character in NGE, so who else would we be examining in the climax of the series, that it sort of makes sense to concentrate on Shinji, because he is the one who initiated this whole process:
#25:
Misato: That's the result you wanted.

Shinji: I wanted?

Rei: Yes.
Destruction, the world where nobody was saved.

#26':
Shinji:
Nobody wants me. So, everybody just die.

#25:
Shinji: NO. It's that nobody saved me.

Ritsuko: Nobody can save you.

#26':
Shinji:
Don't leave me alone! Don't abandon me! Don't kill me!

(picks up a chair and throws it at Asuka's feet)

Asuka (coldly):
... No...


And it is Shinji who ends it:
Image Image

Image Image

Image Image

Image Image

Originally posted on: 12-Oct-2004, 15:15 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:And it is Shinji who ends it:
Image Image

Image Image

Image Image

Image Image


... I think that pretty much about sums it up.

I know I have some "crazy" theories, but I didn't realize people thought Shinji accepted destruction at the end of EoTV ... how interesting. If there was anything crystal clear about Eva, I always thought it was that Shinji chose life.

Originally posted on: 13-Oct-2004, 08:39 GMT

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Postby MDWigs [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

I've been listening to Kanzen Radio (plugging your show Brendan because I like it so much Image) and heard a reference to this thread, so I just had to pop in and comment again. I am heading off to Ireland tomorrow, and I've been really slack in catching up on all the stuff I wanted to on this forum. Sorry guys, I will do my best when I get back.

So...

The key point here that I think we still haven't argued to death is your comment Brendan that, "In the TV ending Shinji chose to stay with Complementation - it isn't even clear that Shinji had a choice at all." (From you're FAQ Brendan, which you have updated, thanks for the link! ^^ Don't let anyone accuse you of not trying to even things out of ignoring evidence, even though you are the “EnemyImage)

It was 2016 A.D.
The thing that people lost, in other words, the complementation of the mind has begun. However, there is not enough time to describe the entire process.
Therefore, we will examine the complementation of the mind of a single boy named Ikari Shinji.


Can you honestly say that this doesn't sound like Shinji is simply the example? This opening title card immediately alludes to the idea that Shinji is simply the example of the process of complementation, and that he will be complemented - no choices, nothing. "we will examine the complementation of the mind". It's a very mechanical, sterile, opening. It's very matter of fact. Nevermind that the TV ending is suddenly in 2016 while the EoE ending is in 2015.


We have discussed this before (in 2001 on Animeboards (check out this post and thread).

I think Shinji did have a choice, and I think the fact that he has a choice is made very clear (I know this is in my original argument but I want to post it again for clarity).

(The stage is illuminated) [/b]
Shinji: What the hell is this??
Misato: This is the Instrumentality which your father has initiated.
Shinji: This is it?
Misato: This is part of it.
Asuka: You can't tell what the truth is, Shinji.
RITSUKO: Truth is subjective. Therefore, you can barely tell that what you can feel is fact.
Rei: The truth is within you.
FUYUTSUKI: And the facts that remain in your memory are what will become your truth.
RITSUKO: Truth can be changed from time to time, sometimes.
Shinji: This is all fact! This is the result of... Everything?
Asuka: This is real; but one of many realities.
Misato: This is the conclusion you wanted.
Shinji: Wanted...? Me?
Rei: Yes; total destruction. You wished for a world in which nobody would be saved.
Shinji: I didn't wish for this! The others didn't save me?!
RITSUKO: Nobody can save you from yourself.
Kaji: This is what you wished for.
Asuka: Destruction. Death. And return to nothingness. You wished for these.
Misato: This is the reality that is.
Shinji: What is reality...?
Rei: This is your world.
HYUGA: A world that exists solely for yourself; one without time, space, or anyone else.
AOBA: A world in which every facet is determined by you.
MAYA: This is the world where you just wait for others to give you something.
That is reality.
Misato: This is your world unless you decide to change reality.
Shinji: This is the world that is! Nothing can change that!
RITSUKO: No. You, yourself, make the decision.
FUYUTSUKI: This is the world where your mind decides what will be.
That is reality.
Misato: Whether it is the will to survive...
Asuka: Or a wish for death, it is all up to you.
Shinji: Are you saying that this darkness -- this insane world -- are what I really wished to create?!
Asuka: Yes.
Kaji: You wished for a closed world, that was comfortable for you.
HYUGA: You wished for it, in order to protect you from your weakness.
AOBA: To protect your few pleasures.
MAYA: This is merely a result of your wish.
Misato: In your closed world, in a world where only you are allowed to be, others cannot live with you.
Asuka: But still you wished to close off the world that surrounded you.
RITSUKO: Your wish ejected things you dislike, and created an isolated and lonely world filled with nothing.
Rei: This is the world your wishes have created, a private haven in the recesses of the mind.
Asuka: This is how it all ends; one of many possible endings.
Misato: This is an ending you brought upon yourself. You chose this fate.



This is the end of episode 25. Immediately following this scene (if you watch the episodes back to back) is the quote you posted from the beginning of episode 26 about Complementation beginning. I would say it's made very clear that Shinji had a choice, and that "Complementation" (ie "a closed world, that was comfortable for you", in other words a world without people, one single being) had begun. It's a process though, and we are shown Shinji's part of it. Shinji chose for it to begin and in the movie we are shown his decision to end it as well. I believe he makes the same decision in the series ending as well (but I think we have agreed to disagree on that issue long ago ^^) but the key point here is the issue of him having the choice to start it, and the choice to end it, of Shinji having the control. He did in the movie and I think he also did in the series. In my mind that's the whole point of the passage I quote.

This is an ending you brought upon yourself. You chose this fate.

That's pretty clear cut in my mind.

Yes the quote you posted is phrased in a very mechanical manner, but I think the sequence immediately preceding it suggests very strongly that it's based upon Shinji's choice, his wish. In which case I don't think the series ending is internally inconsistent or contradictory at all.

Of course there is the date issue, but I don't see that as a very big problem. Masayaki stuffed up the dates in Death and Eva as a whole was intentionally created to be date non-specific (which, Second Impact aside, is one of the reasons for there not being any seasons).

Oh and I think Tsurumaki's comments are more an indication that the endings are the same rather than they are different. I interpret what he says as, "We can't make the ending based on the original script, so instead of making something different (ie crap - see Escaflowne ending Image) let's show them what we originally intended, but let's not try and hide that we couldn't do it the way we wanted, lets do a stripped down, bare bones version instead". In other words in answer to the question, "If we can't do satisfactory work, then what's the point of continuing?", let's continue to tell our original story even though we can't produce (in a standard sense) a "satisfactory" work.

As for Ideon, well it's up there with Gundam and Yamoto as Anno's favourite anime. It certainly influenced him, and the last lines of the series ending specifically, however I think, if it was Anno's intention to model his ending off Ideon's, wouldn't that have been his original intention, and thus wouldn't it be shown in EoE? If he wanted Eva to be such a homage to Ideon, why would he only add it to he hastily put together revision of the ending?

Anyway, I don't know about "famously weak". I certainly remember a time when I was confronted whenever I brought up my concurrent endings opinion with scathing criticism and inevitably a reference to Brendan's argument. It was (and still is by many) seen as the killer argument against any notion that the endings aren't different. After a few years of that I eventually wrote up my argument in 2002 (the original I posted either here or on animeboards) mainly to stop me having to repeat myself so often in different threads. For some reason it caught on, no idea why Image

Anyway yeah I can't keep away from this topic!

Originally posted on: 15-Oct-2004, 03:19 GMT

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Postby Quiddity [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

As for Ideon, well it's up there with Gundam and Yamoto as Anno's favourite anime. It certainly influenced him, and the last lines of the series ending specifically, however I think, if it was Anno's intention to model his ending off Ideon's, wouldn't that have been his original intention, and thus wouldn't it be shown in EoE? If he wanted Eva to be such a homage to Ideon, why would he only add it to he hastily put together revision of the ending?



Well that single quote was a much better fit for the series ending where he could simply paste it in there with everything else since we saw so much text on screen. The 'To All the Children Congradulations!' line probably would be tough to put in EOE where we had actual scenes as opposed to text on the screen saying so much, and it would be tough to fit in with the much gloomier atmosphere as opposed to the more optomistic series ending.

And you can hardly say he ignored homaging Ideon in EOE when EOE featured a massive death count for the heroes, death and transference of human souls into a single existence, enemy troops storming into the bridge, etc... just like Ideon Be Invoked. As opposed to literally spelling it out on screen, the Ideon influence was even more apparant in EOE when circumstances went the exact same way - to a point (of course Instrumentality was stopped in Eva while things went smoothly in Ideon).

Or considering the original script for the TV ending was modified for End of Eva you never know, perhaps he had that Congradulations line in there originally then later took it out because he used it to finish off the TV series.

Originally posted on: 16-Oct-2004, 00:40 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

Since the topic of the endings has arisen yet again, this thread also should revieve a return-visit to the first page.

Originally posted on: 11-Jun-2005, 04:34 GMT

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Postby Hideki 13 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

Well this topic was bumped for me but Shin-Seiki's post with the pics pretty much just summed up my question. The only thing i dont understand is the last frame. When everyone is saying congratulations toward Shinji i always thought that to be more if u accepted Instrumentaility and that its more of a false world. So was just wondering if someone could explain to me how the last two pics of Shin-Seiki's post are similar.

Originally posted on: 11-Jun-2005, 04:39 GMT

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Postby drgenestarwind [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

Rei's body is produced asexualy from lilith, in order to be the first child she had to have been "born" roughly nine months after second impact. and to change bodies after the death of Rei I and Rei II her new body had to have been created at the same time, so it would have the same form...am i getting OT...

Originally posted on: 12-Jun-2005, 02:57 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

^All the Rei bodies were created at the same time. All were put in the tank, and aparently grow and respond to sound("Ayanami....Rei!?"), and appeared drugged. Majorly. And Rei has only ilith's soul, not body. That was made from parts of Yui's DNA. A clone(sorry this is so obvious, but it's worth mentioning)

Originally posted on: 12-Jun-2005, 04:09 GMT

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Postby Colossus [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

MDWigs wrote:I've been listening to Kanzen Radio (plugging your show Brendan because I like it so much Image) and heard a reference to this thread, so I just had to pop in and comment again. I am heading off to Ireland tomorrow, and I've been really slack in catching up on all the stuff I wanted to on this forum. Sorry guys, I will do my best when I get back.

So...

The key point here that I think we still haven't argued to death is your comment Brendan that, "In the TV ending Shinji chose to stay with Complementation - it isn't even clear that Shinji had a choice at all." (From you're FAQ Brendan, which you have updated, thanks for the link! ^^ Don't let anyone accuse you of not trying to even things out of ignoring evidence, even though you are the “EnemyImage)

It was 2016 A.D.
The thing that people lost, in other words, the complementation of the mind has begun. However, there is not enough time to describe the entire process.
Therefore, we will examine the complementation of the mind of a single boy named Ikari Shinji.


Can you honestly say that this doesn't sound like Shinji is simply the example? This opening title card immediately alludes to the idea that Shinji is simply the example of the process of complementation, and that he will be complemented - no choices, nothing. "we will examine the complementation of the mind". It's a very mechanical, sterile, opening. It's very matter of fact. Nevermind that the TV ending is suddenly in 2016 while the EoE ending is in 2015.


We have discussed this before (in 2001 on Animeboards (check out this post and thread).

I think Shinji did have a choice, and I think the fact that he has a choice is made very clear (I know this is in my original argument but I want to post it again for clarity).



This is the end of episode 25. Immediately following this scene (if you watch the episodes back to back) is the quote you posted from the beginning of episode 26 about Complementation beginning. I would say it's made very clear that Shinji had a choice, and that "Complementation" (ie "a closed world, that was comfortable for you", in other words a world without people, one single being) had begun. It's a process though, and we are shown Shinji's part of it. Shinji chose for it to begin and in the movie we are shown his decision to end it as well. I believe he makes the same decision in the series ending as well (but I think we have agreed to disagree on that issue long ago ^^) but the key point here is the issue of him having the choice to start it, and the choice to end it, of Shinji having the control. He did in the movie and I think he also did in the series. In my mind that's the whole point of the passage I quote.

This is an ending you brought upon yourself. You chose this fate.

That's pretty clear cut in my mind.

Yes the quote you posted is phrased in a very mechanical manner, but I think the sequence immediately preceding it suggests very strongly that it's based upon Shinji's choice, his wish. In which case I don't think the series ending is internally inconsistent or contradictory at all.

Of course there is the date issue, but I don't see that as a very big problem. Masayaki stuffed up the dates in Death and Eva as a whole was intentionally created to be date non-specific (which, Second Impact aside, is one of the reasons for there not being any seasons).

Oh and I think Tsurumaki's comments are more an indication that the endings are the same rather than they are different. I interpret what he says as, "We can't make the ending based on the original script, so instead of making something different (ie crap - see Escaflowne ending Image) let's show them what we originally intended, but let's not try and hide that we couldn't do it the way we wanted, lets do a stripped down, bare bones version instead". In other words in answer to the question, "If we can't do satisfactory work, then what's the point of continuing?", let's continue to tell our original story even though we can't produce (in a standard sense) a "satisfactory" work.

As for Ideon, well it's up there with Gundam and Yamoto as Anno's favourite anime. It certainly influenced him, and the last lines of the series ending specifically, however I think, if it was Anno's intention to model his ending off Ideon's, wouldn't that have been his original intention, and thus wouldn't it be shown in EoE? If he wanted Eva to be such a homage to Ideon, why would he only add it to he hastily put together revision of the ending?

Anyway, I don't know about "famously weak". I certainly remember a time when I was confronted whenever I brought up my concurrent endings opinion with scathing criticism and inevitably a reference to Brendan's argument. It was (and still is by many) seen as the killer argument against any notion that the endings aren't different. After a few years of that I eventually wrote up my argument in 2002 (the original I posted either here or on animeboards) mainly to stop me having to repeat myself so often in different threads. For some reason it caught on, no idea why Image

Anyway yeah I can't keep away from this topic!


I would have to say that the tv ending,and the movie ending are completely different.The original ending,the tv ending,was very bland for such a groundbreaking anime.From what i heard Japanese fans were upset that eva ended so..."quietly" so a movie remake of the last 2 or 4 episodes were made.Hence.."End Of Evangelion".Where everything was different,Shinji and Asuka[Possibly Rei?] were the only humans alive after the end of the world.Unlike the tv ending,which always gave me the impression that everyone lived,and had a "happy ending".

Originally posted on: 12-Jun-2005, 22:54 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

Colossus wrote:I would have to say that the tv ending,and the movie ending are completely different.The original ending,the tv ending,was very bland for such a groundbreaking anime.From what i heard Japanese fans were upset that eva ended so..."quietly" so a movie remake of the last 2 or 4 episodes were made.Hence.."End Of Evangelion".Where everything was different,Shinji and Asuka[Possibly Rei?] were the only humans alive after the end of the world.Unlike the tv ending,which always gave me the impression that everyone lived,and had a "happy ending".



Very different in style, I don't think anyone denies that. It's not a point thats often raised though, because people are too busy debating the content. Personally, I really wouldn't have ever been happy if the TV ending was all that there was. Why? The style. Too downbeat for an ending. I don't mind sad, or even tragic, but I like a little bit of "life" to an ending. Some activety.

Originally posted on: 12-Jun-2005, 23:29 GMT

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Postby Digitalex [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

Soluzar wrote:Very different in style, I don't think anyone denies that. It's not a point thats often raised though, because people are too busy debating the content. Personally, I really wouldn't have ever been happy if the TV ending was all that there was. Why? The style. Too downbeat for an ending. I don't mind sad, or even tragic, but I like a little bit of "life" to an ending. Some activety.



Agreed. It was clear that something was left out. EoE was the missing piece. It gave "life" to the last two EoTV epsiodes.

Originally posted on: 13-Jun-2005, 03:13 GMT


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