I love the TV ending, tho I certainly regard EoE as the 'real' ending.

Originally posted on: 11-Oct-2003, 01:27 GMT

Reichu wrote:I sort of like the idea that Yui herself took Gendou's nut off. She was sort of akin to a god(dess) at that point -- she was fused with the Lance and inside Lilith, why shouldn't she have at least a little bit of say in how Instrumentality plays itself out?

So all three of them use Quantum Magic to have a little chat with Gendou... and, for whatever reason, Yui decides to bite his head off. "Assisted suicide by a lover", as Faust once put it? Did she do it because that's what Gendou wanted? Or is there more to Yui than we know (which I'm sure there is)?

Well I be damned, I had the feeling I forgot something. I gotta get rid of my other free-time activities, they're disturbing my virtual playboy life. But anyhow, here's my little delayed response to the case of "nutless Gendo".

I see nothing wrong with Reichu's reasoning above, Yui was very much a goddess in that point. I don't think how is any problem here, why is the important thing.
Like said, I don't like the idea that she bit Gendo's head off because she was angry or vengeful towards him; like said in a newer thread, Yui was basically a saint. That would just be terribly out of character for her. But I can imagine Yui taking the bite because Gendo wanted it and she pitied him, "assisted suicide by a lover" like Reichu mentioned. She loved Gendo and didn't want him to suffer, so she put him out of his misery. That is a sound possibility in my opinion.

The only thing I can think of against this theory is that the act of killing itself didn't seem very "lovingly" administered (I would have preferred kiss & corpse explosion instead :evil. But when it comes to details this small that don't really affect the grand scheme of things I believe everybody is entitled to their opinion (if they don't suck enormously). Ho ho ho, forum kitchen-philosophy!

Originally posted on: 12-Oct-2003, 17:21 GMT

This is an issue I was wondering about recently, so this post popped out of me when I was doing the routine "checking about-to-be-axed threads" bit:

Shin-seiki wrote:You need to look at that in its proper context: almost all of eps 25 and 26 is presented in the form of dramatic monologues/dialogues that reflect the internal psychological environment of the characters (principally Shinji, but also Asuka, Rei, and Misato) in the lead up to, and aftermath of, Third Impact. The first half of Ep25, 'The World Ending', focuses in turn on 'The First Character' Shinji, 'The Second Character' Asuka, and 'The Third Character' Rei. In the first section Rei, and later Asuka, appear with Shinji in the roles of devil's advocate, posing harsh questions and questioning his motives. (Of course, they're not literaly there with Shinji; they represent his self-doubt.)

Whoa! This seems to go against everything that you've taught us. Characters 'not literally being there'? What happened to 'taking everything at face value'? If Shinji is shown talking to these characters in an environment as fux0red-up as EoTV, do we have much reason to believe that he isn't REALLY talking to them?

Originally posted on: 26-Sep-2004, 14:46 GMT

Well in my opinion,i always believed that the t.v. series ending was occuring during end of evangelion. I could be wrong but i always believed this,either way i haven't watched eva in awhile(unless you count eva:platinum volume 1).

Originally posted on: 26-Sep-2004, 17:24 GMT

Not trying to answer a question for another poster, but allow me to offer my response to this:

Whoa! This seems to go against everything that you've taught us. Characters 'not literally being there'? What happened to 'taking everything at face value'?

Because Shin-seiki was right in saying that the last two episodes are a dramatic representation of the idea of instrumentality. Third Impact happens sometime between eps. 24 and 25, and the last two are convoluted and VERY abstract way of trying to explain the philosophy of instrumentality. The dialogue and monologues involving the characters was just the cheap, and how shall one say, PRETENTIOUS, way of getting it across.

It's my opinion that at the VERY end of Ep. 26, Shinji indeed rejects Instrumentality. Remember,

That's right! I am neither more nor less than myself! I want to be myself.[/b]
--Shinji

In other words, it's the same thing that happens in End of Evangelion, only not as well-done.

And let's suppose for a moment that Shinji really does accept Instrumentality in Ep. 26. We all know that the last two episodes were done on a very small budget and are a gigantic philosophic cluster**** that is very difficult to decipher at times. I consider End of Evangelion to be the authoritative ending.

Originally posted on: 26-Sep-2004, 22:12 GMT

Atma wrote:Not trying to answer a question for another poster, but allow me to offer my response to this:Because Shin-seiki was right in saying that the last two episodes are a dramatic representation of the idea of instrumentality. Third Impact happens sometime between eps. 24 and 25, and the last two are convoluted and VERY abstract way of trying to explain the philosophy of instrumentality. The dialogue and monologues involving the characters was just the cheap, and how shall one say, PRETENTIOUS, way of getting it across.

But you see... After the first half of #25, we know that Instrumentality has begun (since they, like, tell us and stuff). So, for 3/4 of EoTV (EoTV = episodes #25 and #26, FYI), we know for a fact that we are in the giant hive mind known as Instrumentality, where there are no borders between individuals. Due to the very nature of Instrumentality, if we see one character interacting with one or a dozen others, it is actually ERRONEOUS to assume that it is somehow "all in their head" and not actually happening; all minds are linked, and every person is, in a sense, present in the mind of everyone else.

This, of course, does not explain what the hell is going on in the first half of #25, which was what I was asking Shin-seiki about. (Being as he's down in Florida being hit by the latest hurricane, I'll have to wait a little while.)

Originally posted on: 26-Sep-2004, 23:41 GMT

Reichu wrote:Due to the very nature of Instrumentality, if we see one character interacting with one or a dozen others, it is actually ERRONEOUS to assume that it is somehow "all in their head" and not actually happening; all minds are linked, and every person is, in a sense, present in the mind of everyone else.

Well yeah, that's kind of implied. I guess I was just dumbing that down for conversation's sake.
That said, it's tough to get anywhere in conversation if I don't put things in the correct perspective. My bad on that one.

Reichu wrote:This, of course, does not explain what the hell is going on in the first half of #25, which was what I was asking Shin-seiki about.

Yes, it's a good question. I kind of disregard the last two episodes and pay attention to End of Evangelion, to be honest. And even that's quite a chore, to be sure. *Needs to pull out the last DVD sometime and try to make sense out of the last two episodes*. He, easier said than done.

Originally posted on: 27-Sep-2004, 02:31 GMT

Atma wrote:Yes, it's a good question. I kind of disregard the last two episodes and pay attention to End of Evangelion, to be honest. And even that's quite a chore, to be sure. *Needs to pull out the last DVD sometime and try to make sense out of the last two episodes*. He, easier said than done.

I am not a big EoTV fan, myself, but, the way things turned out, both endings are required to make sense of NGE as a whole. #25 and #26 should not be disregarded; the endings complement one another.

Originally posted on: 27-Sep-2004, 03:26 GMT

Shin-Seiki wrote:(Of course, they're not literaly there with Shinji; they represent his self-doubt.)

Reichu wrote:This, of course, does not explain what the hell is going on in the first half of #25, which was what I was asking Shin-seiki about. (Being as he's down in Florida being hit by the latest hurricane, I'll have to wait a little while.)

Well, my power's back on at least. I see that Shin-Seiki's above quote is close to a year old, so perhaps his ideas weren't fully formed at that time. I seem to remember him suggesting at about this same time that Shinji may have been experiencing the first part of 25 while he was cowering under the stairs, so these two ideas might be related. I doubt if he would say today that they weren't really there.

My opinion is that the first half of 25 is the equivalent of the, "Pre-Instrumentality", Instrumentality sequence from 26', when Shinji's mind is linked only to Rei, Misato, Asuka. & Ritsuko (sandbox scene thru kitchen throttle scene). (You'll notice that after the midway point of 25 some of the other characters start showing up, so the second half of 25 is indeed after the big meltdown.)

If I am correct about where 25 should be placed in EOE, then the bits and pieces of 25' that we see in 25 should be considered flashbacks, not, "flash-sideways", like they are usually thought of.

Originally posted on: 27-Sep-2004, 13:54 GMT

The way I see it, the first half of #25 is somewhat unambiguously depicted as occurring before this scene in #25':



...considering that we see this at the end of #25, Part A:



...and are told this:

And,
The complementation by the Instrumentality of Man begins.

And this, in the beginning of Part B:

That was the very beginning
of the complementation of the people
by the instrumentality of man.

the thing people lost.

the lost minds.

complimenting the vacuum in the mind.

The complementation
by the instrumentality of minds and soul begins.

All things return to nothingness.

The complementation
by the instrumentality of man
has just begun.

Blah, blah, blah. Quite apparently, the first half of #25 occurs before any Instrumentality has started taking place.

Perhaps EoTV was made before Anno had conceived of the bizarre "Pre-3I Instrumentality Sequence", so there is no clear before-and-after distinction. Regardless, in the second half of #25, we do see scenes that directly correlate to the beginning of #26 (before The Big Meltdown), such as Shinji losing physical form, Shinji getting to see Misato and Kaji go at it, and such.

If I am correct about where 25 should be placed in EOE, then the bits and pieces of 25' that we see in 25 should be considered flashbacks, not, "flash-sideways", like they are usually thought of.

..."flash-sideways"?

Originally posted on: 27-Sep-2004, 15:25 GMT

Reichu wrote:The way I see it, the first half of #25 is somewhat unambiguously depicted as occurring before this scene in #25':

Another flashback rather than a flash-sideways. If their minds aren't linked, then how are they questioning each other?

Perhaps EoTV was made before Anno had conceived of the bizarre "Pre-3I Instrumentality Sequence", so there is no clear before-and-after distinction.

Then how do you explain the presence of the sandbox in the TV series?

Regardless, in the second half of #25, we do see scenes that directly correlate to the beginning of #26 (before The Big Meltdown), such as Shinji losing physical form, Shinji getting to see Misato and Kaji go at it, and such.

But when the other characters start showing up, Maya for example, it must be after The Big Meltdown.

..."flash-sideways"?

Flashbacks to things that have already happened in the movie, not Flash-Sideways to things that are concurrently happening in the movie. The fact that the characters are shown as being in an instrumentality-like state throughtout 25 tells me that the bits and pieces of 25' that they show us must be flashbacks to things that have already happened. Thus the, "It's time, Rei", scene is not happening when they show it in 25; it is a flashback to something that already happened in 25'.

Perhaps you are looking at 25 as being more linear than it actually is. The examinatons of Shinji, Rei, Asuka, and Misato, for instance, should be considered to be happening all at once, not one after the other.

Originally posted on: 28-Sep-2004, 08:30 GMT

Id just like to comment first to please stop this "I am I" crap Watashi doesn't only mean I. It means me too. If I said "watashi no hon" It wouldn't be "I book" in english, would it. Please remember that Japanese words are ambiguous.

Anyway. The little internal debates the chara have with themsleves isn't always based on fact. Shinji always tells himself that the everyone hates him and that all he does is hurt and kill people. Asuka says shes worthless. Just cause it is said doesn't mean its true. Rei was just having one of those moments where she argues with her self. She also says "I am neither false nor fake." There are several moments in the series where she questions her existence.

You are seriously reading too much into this. I mean Misato says she hates Kaji like 4 times but does she? Shinji says he'll never pilot Eva again and what happens? Jesus tap dancing christ!

Originally posted on: 28-Sep-2004, 23:45 GMT

Since the discussion seems to be wavering on the vague topic of "flash-sideways" and not going anywhere ... I felt my thoughts on the endings wouldn't interupt anything .

So yeah ... I've always felt the two compliment one another until the last 60 seconds of each.

People mentioned they didn't think the end of EoE was depressing ...? Erm ... compared to the TV ending I think it was.

The TV ending ends with blue skies, the theme song played on piano in the background (like a renewal theme), and smiles and congratulations from everyone.

The EoE ending on the other hand ends with Shinji strangling Asuka on a desolate beach with a blood red ocean covering a destroyed city scape, followed of course by Asuka's infamous quote "How disgusting" (or for those translation-Nazis out there, "Feel sick").
... yeah ... much happier ending.

You people are weird
[*sarcasm note for the sarcasm-impaired *]

Originally posted on: 29-Sep-2004, 20:27 GMT

Knives wrote:Since the discussion seems to be wavering on the vague topic of "flash-sideways" and not going anywhere ... I felt my thoughts on the endings wouldn't interupt anything .

So yeah ... I've always felt the two compliment one another until the last 60 seconds of each.

People mentioned they didn't think the end of EoE was depressing ...? Erm ... compared to the TV ending I think it was.

The TV ending ends with blue skies, the theme song played on piano in the background (like a renewal theme), and smiles and congratulations from everyone.

The EoE ending on the other hand ends with Shinji strangling Asuka on a desolate beach with a blood red ocean covering a destroyed city scape, followed of course by Asuka's infamous quote "How disgusting" (or for those translation-Nazis out there, "Feel sick").
... yeah ... much happier ending.

You people are weird
[*sarcasm note for the sarcasm-impaired *]

Like I said above, there are significant, and in some cases irreconcilable, differences between EoTV and EoE; but that Shinji choses to reject Complementation is not one of those differences. Anyone should be able to see, tho, that both #25-26 and 25'-26' are following the same broad narrative outline, but the significant difference in tone is a result, possibly, of the fact that the one 'new' thing Anno had to come up with for #26' was "How do I end this?", i.e. he made the choice (consistent with the idea of EoE as a whole, of showing us what's really happening in the real world, as opposed to the "inner universe" of EoTV) to carry the narrative a bit beyond the highly symbolic ending of #26 (which only depicts Shinji making the choice to reject Instrumentality), and actually show Shinji back in the real world. He seems to have kicked around various scenarios (sorry, MDWigs' site is down, so I can't link to his discussion of 'Alternate Endings'). 'I need you' seems harsh, (and in comparison to the upbeat tone of 'Take care of yourself', it is), but it is simply remaining consistent with everything that we see going on in the movie up to that point; a sea of LCL all over the place, big chunks GNR lying about, the Series EVAs, a streak of blood in the sky... and Asuka is there too, to give substance to Rei's words about how "Anyone can return to human form, if they can imagine themselves in their own heart, etc." Shinji's behavior towards Asuka is, while hardly commendable, at least comprehensible in light of what went on between them in Instrumentality, while Asuka's reaction probably serves to substantiate what Rei and Kaworu said about "Hope; the hope that people may one day be able to understand one another." and "The words 'I love you'." Of course her next line tends to splash cold water on any expectation we might have that everything is suddenly all lovey-dovey between these two, but if the rumors are to be believed, Anno didn't come up with 'kimochi warui', Yuko Miyamura (Asuka's VA) did!

Originally posted on: 29-Sep-2004, 09:57 GMT

Shin-seiki wrote:(sorry, MDWigs' site is down, so I can't link to his discussion of 'Alternate Endings').

No it's not!

Here is a direct link: http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/mdwigs/endings.html

I really need to get around to updating that site at some point, starting with changing it's hosting!

I do (as always) have more to say on this topic. But I have a lecture to run to now! Sorry. I will comment fully soon.

Edit: Woops, you meant this! http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/mdw...vesequence.html

I should update that at some point to, linking to the full live sequence translations that Bochan_Bird did recently that are now on EvaOtaku.

Edit again: Just rereading that section. I particularly like this passage:

Shinji wakes up (same "hospital scene" but with orange-like colours)
Shinji: "Where am I?"
Image of an empty entry-plug (like in episode 20, without the plug suit).
Shinji: "The entry plug of Eva-01?"
Shinji: "But I'm not here."
"This is the sea of LCL... The primordial soup of life. A world without AT Fields... Without your own shape."
"An ambiguous world where it is impossible to tell where you end and other people start."
"A fragile world where you exist everywhere, and thus exist nowhere."
"You must recover you lost self on your own."
"When you'll be back on Earth, if you succeed to imagine yourself, everybody will be able to recover."
"Back on Earth?"
"Yes, go back to Earth."
"If you don't try to imagine any evolution yourself, nothing will ever change."
"It is the hearts of people that create their appearance."
"And new images will change peoples' hearts and appearances."
"The power of humans is the power of imagination."
"All living things have the ability to return to their original form. As long as the Sun, the Moon and the Earth exist, everything will be all right. "

I think it marks the clear distinction between the previous passage when Shinji decides to reject complementation and return to the real world:

Shinji's voice: "I'm sorry, Ayanami.
I'll return to where I used to be.
There may be nobody there, by now, but I'll return.
I guess there is nothing good for me, there, never was and never will
be, but I'll return.
Because it's the place I belong and I have to live in

Shinji decides to return, but when he does, he still has to imagine himself to return to his physical form and to allow everyone else to return to theirs. Merely "waking", rejecting complementation isn't enough it seems, if Shinji doesn't reform, nobody can.

Originally posted on: 29-Sep-2004, 10:22 GMT

MDWigs wrote:No it's not!

Sorry, my bad; I was relying on an old, out of date bookmark: http://www.mdwigs.tk/

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2004, 04:21 GMT

That's still up too ^^

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2004, 20:07 GMT

Shin-seiki wrote:Sorry, my bad; I was relying on an old, out of date bookmark: http://www.mdwigs.tk/

Works for me :\

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2004, 13:37 GMT

Sharp-kun wrote:Works for me :\

Really?! I click on the link right here on the page, and all I get is an error message: "can't find the server 'www.mdwigs.tk' "...

Originally posted on: 01-Oct-2004, 13:45 GMT

wasnt Rei's soul a copy of Shinji's mothers soul?

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 04:05 GMT