NGE2 Classified Information

Over time, notable threads from ANF will be preserved here for the Benefit of All.

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Postby LuigiHann [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:31 pm

Am I way off with my theory that the "dummy plug" system somehow uses the dummy-reis collectively? I've always assumed that the system somehow simulated a soul and mind by somehow channelling them from the tank as a whole. Not sure how I came to that conclusion, it was just my intuitive reaction, and since the series doesn't go out of its way to explain [anything], I haven't seen anything to confirm or deny it.

Originally posted on: 06.30.2006, 05:07 PM

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Postby CanonRAP [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:31 pm

24-D wrote:Initially, the White Moon -- containing Adam -- fell to Earth. The Black Moon, which originally should have gone to a different solar system, was captured by Earth's gravity, and, after it crashed into the Earth's surface and bounced, it became a satellite orbiting the planet.

Maybe it's just me, but 'bounced' comes off as sounding a bit...funny.

It left behind only its ruins and remained in the heavens, and Lilith, the Seed that the Black Moon had carried, was implanted into Earth.

Wait, then where did it go?

Lilith's landing site is believed to have been in the vicinity of what is now called the South Pole, but it was later moved by tectonic plates, ultimately as far as the Hakone region of Japan. That site is the giant cavern of Hakone, and the future Nerv Headquarters would be constructed here.

The highlighted part interested me the most.

(BTW, how many people here actually saves this stuff in a text file? I did.)

Originally posted on: 06.30.2006, 07:10 PM

Blader5489 [ANF]
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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:31 pm

CanonRAP wrote:Wait, then where did it go?

I think it's saying the carrier-moon crashed into the Earth, and the bulk of it bounced back into space and became the moon. The only part of the carrier-moon that remained on Earth was the Black Moon, which I guess only refers to the cavity containing Lillith.

Also, I'm hoping someone has read my personal summary of SEELE's Third Impact scenario a few posts up so that I can get some feedback. Looking back on it, I need to refine some ideas (such as the catalyst for 3I only needing the Fruit of Life, not both fruits) but I think the general idea works.

Originally posted on: 06.30.2006, 08:50 PM

Ornette [ANF]
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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:31 pm

CanonRAP wrote:Maybe it's just me, but 'bounced' comes off as sounding a bit...funny.

It does, but it really does say "bounced"

Originally posted on: 06.30.2006, 09:57 PM

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:32 pm

Blader5489 wrote:I think it's saying the carrier-moon crashed into the Earth, and the bulk of it bounced back into space and became the moon. The only part of the carrier-moon that remained on Earth was the Black Moon, which I guess only refers to the cavity containing Lillith.

"Black Moon" seems to refer to both the big ball of rock and the happy little sphere that the FAR made. "Gee, thanks. As if we needed MORE ambiguous terminology." Your assessment above seems to be what the passage is basically saying, yes.

Also, I'm hoping someone has read my personal summary of SEELE's Third Impact scenario a few posts up so that I can get some feedback.

I didn't leave any because there are parts of the translations you were working from that I really wasn't sure about, and things might become a little more clear the 'second time through'.

NAveryW wrote:A quick note; your translation makes it seem like the White Moon is at the South Pole, then changes so that it's in space. Should it say that a cavity caused by the white moon was found in Antarctica?

The White Moon is at the South Pole; I think you mean the Black?

CanonRAP wrote:Maybe it's just me, but 'bounced' comes off as sounding a bit...funny.

The wording does bring a rather amusing visual image to mind... It actually uses the word "bound" (in English), which means the same thing as "bounce". "Rebound" sounds the least zany, to my ears -- would a rocky body being thrown back into space after crashing into a planet count as "rebound"?

The highlighted part interested me the most.

Lilith's "egg" getting moved over billions of years to Japan is more interesting than the fact that it initially landed near Adam's hangout?

(BTW, how many people here actually saves this stuff in a text file? I did.)

Just don't consult it once I put a revised translation on my poor, neglected site. Image

Originally posted on: 06.30.2006, 10:12 PM

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Postby NAveryW [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:32 pm

Reichu wrote:The White Moon is at the South Pole; I think you mean the Black?

WhaaaaIthoughtthewhitemoonwasinspaceI'ml ookingatitrightnowoutmywindow...

Originally posted on: 06.30.2006, 11:11 PM

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:32 pm

Reichu wrote:would a rocky body being thrown back into space after crashing into a planet count as "rebound"?

I'm no physicist, but offhand I don't recall big hunks of rock being notable for their rubber-like properties...how the heck would it have "rebounded" back into space anyways? What force would have pushed it back out?

I picture the thing landing with a cosmic "BYOOOIIINNNNGGG!!" and zooming back up into the atmosphere...heck, maybe it looked like a gigantic version of one of those super-bouncy mini-balls with the weird stripey stuff and glitter inside of them. Image

Originally posted on: 07.01.2006, 12:09 AM

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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:32 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:I'm no physicist, but offhand I don't recall big hunks of rock being notable for their rubber-like properties...how the heck would it have "rebounded" back into space anyways? What force would have pushed it back out?

I picture the thing landing with a cosmic "BYOOOIIINNNNGGG!!" and zooming back up into the atmosphere...heck, maybe it looked like a gigantic version of one of those super-bouncy mini-balls with the weird stripey stuff and glitter inside of them. Image

Maybe it "glanced" the earth instead of crashing at a trajectory perpendicular to the plane of the Earth's surface. Something like richochet?

Originally posted on: 07.01.2006, 01:03 AM

Jabberwok [ANF]
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Postby Jabberwok [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:32 pm

I watched a very interesting show several weeks ago talking about the moon and how it was formed and stuff.

Apparently, the only way they can get a satellite like ours into an orbit like ours in computer models is with a Mars-sized impactor striking the Earth off center. The impact throws large amounts of the upper crust into orbit which then coalesces into a planetoid.

I'll see if I can dig up some links to animations later. Some of the models looked pretty cool.

Found a couple meh links.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tothemoon/origins2.html - It has an animation, though it's a few megs. The bandwidth disinclined can still get a decent article.
http://www.psi.edu/projects/moon/moon.html - So-so. Pretty paintings.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom..._010815-1.html - Decent article and the pics are nice.

Originally posted on: 07.01.2006, 01:38 AM

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:32 pm

Ornette wrote:Maybe it "glanced" the earth instead of crashing at a trajectory perpendicular to the plane of the Earth's surface. Something like richochet?

Hmm...
ricochet

n : a glancing rebound [syn: carom] v : spring back; spring away from an impact; "The rubber ball bounced"; "These particles do not resile but they unite after they collide" [syn: bounce, resile, take a hop, spring, bound, rebound, recoil, reverberate]Using "ricochet" sounds like it would be a bit more "fluent", now that you mention it.

Jabberwok wrote:Apparently, the only way they can get a satellite like ours into an orbit like ours in computer models is with a Mars-sized impactor striking the Earth off center. The impact throws large amounts of the upper crust into orbit which then coalesces into a planetoid.

That doesn't seem to be what's going on here... Big impactor striking the Earth, then it's the impactor itself (or its trashed ruins) that becomes the satellite, rather than material from the Earth, even though the same name as the model you've linked to is employed (Giant Impact). Or maybe I'm missing something. I'm not very well-versed in this stuff.

Random: Reading just that first article, I'm sort of reminded why trying to explain NGE appeals to my "scientific sensibilities". Image

Now, to begin Phase 2... My my my, isn't this going to be fun?

Originally posted on: 07.01.2006, 11:17 AM

Jabberwok [ANF]
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Postby Jabberwok [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:32 pm

Reichu wrote:That doesn't seem to be what's going on here..

My mention of crustal flinging was unnecessary and a little distracting, it seems.

Part of the Giant Impact model, in explaining the Moon's lack of a large iron-rich core, tells of the heavier elements present in the impactor primarily sinking into the Earth with the lighter ones (and chunks of the outer Earth) being ejected into orbit were they now roam. I'm sure just as much, if not more, of the impactor planetoid's material make up our Moon, but I think the specifics are no more than trivial details.
[Edit for quote from first article. They said it better than I.]
According to theoretical models, the impact would have destroyed the impactor, sending most of its remains, along with huge amounts of the Earth's mantle, into an Earth-orbiting debris cloud that ultimately coalesced into the moon. This would explain the reduced density of the moon, which is believed to be composed of two-thirds impactor and one-third Earth mantle. And it explains its tiny core: Since the models suggest that all of the impactor's core wound up in the Earth's core, the moon must have got its core iron from later, smaller impacts.

I guess my whole point was to show of another instance where Real-World Science made its way into NGE and maybe to provide some animations to those who were having difficulty visualizing this primordial rendezvous. I may have failed with the later, but with a skosh of Anime-Physics(TM) the whole thing seems pretty cut and dry.

Originally posted on: 07.01.2006, 12:32 PM

HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF]
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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:32 pm

Ornette wrote:Maybe it "glanced" the earth instead of crashing at a trajectory perpendicular to the plane of the Earth's surface. Something like richochet?

That's probably about the best explanation one could think of for this, but for me at least it's still a tad difficult to visualize...

IIRC, wasn't the "real-life" prevailing scientific theory about the moon's formation along the lines of the Earth and moon originally being one body, but were eventually separated when something smacked into it? Before this info came out, I think that was theorized to be NGE's "explanation" for First Impact, unless I remember wrong...

Originally posted on: 07.02.2006, 12:56 PM

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:32 pm

The Giant Impactor "Big Smash" was mentioned in the schoolbook text that described the cover story for 2I; though the Big Smash has always been a splash (of shared surface layers), rather than a bounce.

Originally posted on: 07.02.2006, 02:54 PM

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:32 pm

I keep on ponderin' ponderin' ponderin'... And I still can't begin to find a way to reconcile the series and a surface-level reading (i.e., taking everything at "face value") of that Spear C.I. entry. What's going on, eh? I wonder if reading the Japanese as carrying the nuance that "a Seed of Life is put into suspended animation by Spear so that she can't reach god-status" (and insert seeming intimations that Adam was doing something against the FAR's goals that made her own Spear do this by itself?!? buh) is really correct. It seems like it might be more like "the reason being that she doesn't reach god-status" (or, like I've said, isn't cut out to be a god, so to speak).

This would harken back to something in the "Angel" entry, "Two Seeds of Life cannot exist on one planet, and, therefore, one of them is excluded." (You know, like, "pushed aside", "left out". Image ) That was Adam. And then, the true successors born from Adam, finally having awakened, engaged the Lilim in a contest of survival. Those were the people called Angels.

People? They're human?

Yes, they're human.

Uhhh... What was I talking about again? Right. Two forms of life. One being excluded. With the Lilim and Apostles, this was in the form of what the CI calls a "contest of survival". (Talk about euphemisms.) Adam was excluded. Adam was also impaled on a Spear of Longinus, and this is what put her into "suspended animation" for so long. A Seed of Life, or SeedS of Life, went against the FAR's plans. What could this feasibly mean? I would imagine, the fact that two of them landed on the same planet, and thus, for anything to be accomplished at all, one of their messengers must go sleepies.

Does the idea that a Spear of Longinus (especially Adam's own!) just took out Adam by itself once Lilith landed really work?

The fact that people just jumped the gun on this one has bugged me from Day 1. We should at least consider the possibility that the CI is cloaking the truth of the matter -- for some reason, Mr. Tines' "Gypsy Switch" has come to mind -- namely, some stuff that we already knew. It's sort of obvious that it is barely touching what we are shown in the show, so we're not really going to figure out what's going out without weighing out everything...

I could just be setting myself up for more pwnage, but I need to get it off my back. Ya never know.

Originally posted on: 07.02.2006, 04:12 PM

Ornette [ANF]
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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:33 pm

Reichu wrote:I keep on ponderin' ponderin' ponderin'... And I still can't begin to find a way to reconcile the series and a surface-level reading (i.e., taking everything at "face value") of that Spear C.I. entry. What's going on, eh? I wonder if reading the Japanese as carrying the nuance that "a Seed of Life is put into suspended animation by Spear so that she can't reach god-status" (and insert seeming intimations that Adam was doing something against the FAR's goals that made her own Spear do this by itself?!? buh) is really correct. It seems like it might be more like "the reason being that she doesn't reach god-status" (or, like I've said, isn't cut out to be a god, so to speak).

I think the key to understanding here is to figure out what they mean by "security device" and "god-status". This may also lead to a clearer understanding of the other times "god-status" is used in the CI.
Uhhh... What was I talking about again? Right. Two forms of life. One being excluded. With the Lilim and Apostles, this was in the form of what the CI calls a "contest of survival". (Talk about euphemisms.) Adam was excluded. Adam was also impaled on a Spear of Longinus, and this is what put her into "suspended animation" for so long. A Seed of Life, or SeedS of Life, went against the FAR's plans. What could this feasibly mean? I would imagine, the fact that two of them landed on the same planet, and thus, for anything to be accomplished at all, one of their messengers must go sleepies.

I think it could also mean something else. It's clear that the FAR's plans don't include having 2 seeds land on the same planet. But what exactly ARE the FAR's plans?

Does the idea that a Spear of Longinus (especially Adam's own!) just took out Adam by itself once Lilith landed really work?

The fact that people just jumped the gun on this one has bugged me from Day 1. We should at least consider the possibility that the CI is cloaking the truth of the matter -- for some reason, Mr. Tines' "Gypsy Switch" has come to mind -- namely, some stuff that we already knew. It's sort of obvious that it is barely touching what we are shown in the show, so we're not really going to figure out what's going out without weighing out everything...

This bit is all really confusing (both in the CI and in light of the spear section, in EoE). In Ep 22, they say the spear is in a lunar orbit. (from ep23') But in EoE, the spear that shoots to Yui was clearly embedded into the moon. (This may also be a non-issue, but those two spears look a *little* different). The spear embedded in the moon could very well be the "thought-to-be-lost" spear of Lilith, and Keel says that the original spear has returned to us. But why would the one found with Adam, that presumably was fetched post 2I on an aircraft carrier and then stuck into Lilith also be called the "Spear of Longinus"? Is that just what Seele calls any "security-device" spear that comes as a set with each SoL?

Anyways, back to the "god-status" and "security device" bit. I had rockthing look over quickly the translation and the original Japanese on the spear section while he was here. He says that the translation looks about as right as it could but admits it makes no sense to him. He also told me he got Hiromi to look over this section and she was bitching about how it was written, that it was "purposely written this way so it wouldn't make sense". I specifically asked about these 2 phrases and there seems to be no cultural meaning or hidden context to either "god-status" or "security device". So... we're on our own.

Assuming that "security device" is to keep a SoL in check, it seems to make sense that the spear that kept Adam in check was her own. (Although in my previous paragraph's assumption that Adam's spear was stuck into Lilith, it would seem that a spear can keep any SoL suspended). Also, the CI entry seems to say Lilith's spear was out of the picture. It doesn't make sense to me to use such a "security device" to do battle with in the event of 2 seeds landing on the same planet, nor does it make sense for the security device to just randomly take out it's SoL (how would they know? does the spears know which SoL was supposed to be where?).

On "god-status": Keel mentions "'God' is not that lofty of an issue" at the beginning of ep21', saying that scientists will never understand what they discover. Ritsuko also mentions that "Humans found a god, and thus tried to obtain it." in ep23, refering to Adam. They also refer to Eva-01 as a "god" when obtained an S2:
Seele04: Evangelion Unit One.
Seele03: The living God created by us.

And later in EoE Fuyutsuki says something similar, "Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a God."

So, does this mean something similar had happened to Adam WAY BEFORE the pre-2I meddlings of Dr. Katsuragi? Did Adam do something during the duel against Lilith that broke the FAR's rules of becoming "god-status" similar to how Eva-01 did (perhaps why [Lilith's?] spear came to Eva-01 in EoE). What exactly that is, I don't know, maybe trying to take in the FoK?

Originally posted on: 07.02.2006, 06:02 PM

Blader5489 [ANF]
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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:33 pm

Reichu wrote:Does the idea that a Spear of Longinus (especially Adam's own!) just took out Adam by itself once Lilith landed really work?

I have tried to answer your question twice. Both times I've written up a lengthy post to give an answer (think Ritusko and her mad rant in 23'), and both times IE has crashed on me when I hit "submit." I'm writing this in Wordpad, and this time just writing up a short summary/list (I'll try to recreate the whole post if you want), so hopefully third time's the charm...

Disclaimer: I'll be using terms like "Angel" and "Lance of Longinus" when referring to "Apostle" and "Spear of Longinus." The reason being that I was exposed to NGE through the dub and old habits die hard. Image

Here's my theory in a nutshell:

1) Lillith crashes onto Earth in First Impact; the Lance of Longinus paired with her is incapacitated.

2) The FAR's plans for populating planets with life never included two SoL's being on the same planet.

3) Each Lance of Longinus was designed to fix any problems that may occur when the FAR's plans are put into execution; two SoL's existing on the same planet at the same time would be such a problem.

4) The obvious solution would be to put Lillith into suspended animation because she landed on the wrong planet. However, her lance is no longer in a state where it can function like that.

5) Since one SoL has to be put to sleep, and it can't be Lillith, the only option left is Adam (speculation: each lance is only designed to work with the SoL it's paired with). Adam's lance activates, puts Adam to sleep, and then humans populate the Earth.

6) The Angels feel cheated (they're the "true successors" and humans are the "false successors") and get their chance for revenge when Second Impact releases them from the White Moon.

7) The Angels exact their revenge by either trying to merge with Adam, merge with Lillith (this would be the ideal form of revenge for the Angels), or cause as much destruction as possible.

Would this work?

Originally posted on: 07.02.2006, 06:08 PM

CanonRAP [ANF]
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Postby CanonRAP [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:33 pm

I like the theory, but now all the Angels sound like bad people Image

Originally posted on: 07.02.2006, 06:47 PM

Blader5489 [ANF]
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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:33 pm

CanonRAP wrote:I like the theory, but now all the Angels sound like bad people Image

Not bad, just angry. Holding a grudge against Mankind for stealing their planet makes them more human.*





*A connection I just came up with now, but it works right? Image

Originally posted on: 07.02.2006, 07:38 PM

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Postby Jabberwok [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:33 pm

I came up with two theories on how to reconcile this issue.

(1) In short: Deus Ex Machina.

In longer: With Lilith's Spear MIA/KIA/AWOL, Adam's Spear is presented with a dilema after First Impact. Two Seeds, One planet. Solution: Disable one of the Seeds. The closest Seed: Adam. Result: Lilith lucked out and the bad guys win.

Simple? Yes. Elegant? No. But it works.



(2) This one is less straightforward and requires a bit of inference.

One of the Spear's functions is to prevent a Seed from going against the FAR's plan. Part of the FAR's plan requires only one Seed per planet. Both Seeds should know this and it could be assumed that they would fight for the right to propigate this world.

But would they both? What we know of the Seed's original personalities can only be inferred form their respective avatars. Lilith, in the form of Rei, appears to be the type to follow guidlines given to her, namely the FAR's wishes. But Adam, in the form of Kaworu, seems more likely to consider other posibilities, perhaps one of cohabitation.

The Spear senses this radical thinking and reacts in an instant, disabling Adam.



I tend to like the second theory better because it further portrays the Angels and the good guys and the Lilim as the bad. Indeed, it could make one sympathize with Kaworu even more seeing as he was eliminated not once, but twice, so that the Lilim could survive.

Originally posted on: 07.02.2006, 09:32 PM

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:33 pm

I like both of those myself.
However;

Jabberwok wrote:Lilith, in the form of Rei, appears to be the type to follow guidelines given to her, namely the Farr?s wishes.


Rei's usual "blank" personality as Lilith's avatar seems to be more a result of her being replaced, with only certain "memories" bang preserved and downloaded into her psyche.
You may recall her behavior as Rei I was more attuned to Kaworu's free thinking(as she was probably as close to Lilith as she could be, in that new body). She took delight in breaking down Naoko by using Gendo's taunting,(she actually brings to mind the EMK and his, the way that 'ol manga Kaworu operates and all..)
which to me, makes it seem like at this stage, she was doing more then following an order. But, we don't actually know if Gendo ordered her to ruffle the Doctor's feathers, I personally am not so sure about that

Do we even know if Rei II at any point cared that much for Gendo at any point before Gendo came to her rescued her? That event really left great impressions on her...I imagine beforehand that she was truly, in the full sense, blank. Her obedience to Gendo before was merely because she knew nothing else, as was the case with Shinji, imo, but now(after the incident) perhaps, she delighted in it serving her savior...at least noted in episode 05.
It's only when another point of influence on the part of the younger Ikari, Shinji(that first Aremesial alerted her to), that caused Rei to follow her truest heart. And that's where Rei III decides for herself. I'm not sure how much of Lilith's will was left in her, if any. Rei was probably trying to find herself when she decided to grant Shinji's wish, influenced by, this time, Kaworu(since she doesn't remember the events of '23) So, this may just show how the Sol's may have been slightly different, just like all of we humans, they may have had the same tendencies So, I wouldn't consider Lilith and her lilum the "bad guys" or "terrible invaders, in that part of your theory, but just very much attuned to her life preservation.

With regards to cohabitation possibilities that Adam might've considered, I'm personally not sure if such an idea could come from Adam herself, but more from in PoV during Kaworu's experiences as Seele's trump. Shinji might've impacted him more then we think, as Reichu said, he showed his material side to him that derived from Adam. It's like a reverse role in the way Rei was affected by both Shinji and Gendo, as it was her being saved and her receiving "revelations about herself. It seems only with actual contact that angels/Sols ever thought about the possibility of humans being able to live with. But even Kaworu said in the end, "Only one life form will inherit the future. And you are not the life form that should die.?. or something of that sort.
Personally, it always irked me a bit why Mistato in EoE wasn't more clear as to why the two life forms couldn't be, I mean, I have plenty of my own possibilities, but hearing the shows logic obviously would've been preferred.

Originally posted on: 07.02.2006, 10:16 PM


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