NGE2 Classified Information

Over time, notable threads from ANF will be preserved here for the Benefit of All.

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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:20 pm

Thanks.

See Reichu, all is not lost. Image That new bit of info you provided clears up a few ambiguous issues (ambiguous to me, anyways), like how the Evas are the 'keys that open the path to divinity.'

Originally posted on: 06.22.2006, 09:18 PM

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Postby CanonRAP [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:20 pm

Speaking of Eva-related games, can the stuff from the N64 game count as canon at all?

Maybe I just suck at fighting games, but I can't even get pass Sachiel Image

Originally posted on: 06.23.2006, 02:16 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:20 pm

No real progress with Dummy Plug. The Spear entry has created a heavy sense of "weariness" (I'm showing my age), and at the moment I'm being wrung fairly dry by my other obligations. Will do more when I can.

(How does a fan get rid of bile salts, anyway?)

Originally posted on: 06.24.2006, 03:27 PM

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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:21 pm

(How does a fan get rid of bile salts, anyway?)

Huzzah!
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...s&ct=clnk&cd=1

OT: rockthing is actually in the states atm (he is mysterious!), he's on a tight schedule but since he's flying out of Pittsburgh when heading back to Nagoya, he'll stop by and I'll ask him to look over the spear entry again, maybe

Originally posted on: 06.24.2006, 03:44 PM

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:21 pm


Image

OT: rockthing is actually in the states atm (he is mysterious!), he's on a tight schedule but since he's flying out of Pittsburgh when heading back to Nagoya, he'll stop by and I'll ask him to look over the spear entry again, maybe

A second opinion is always good.

Okay, kids. Here to exhumate long-neglected theories and deliver another dose of "WTF?!?" (albeit one I don't mind that much, since the Dummy Plug never made sense anyway Image ), I humbly present...

*****

Image

23. Dummy Plug

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

An entry plug developed for use with the Dummy System. Even if no pilot is present, it can activate an Eva by making her think that a pilot is there.

C. Confidential Information

A copy of a personality is made in the Dummy Plug, but a soul cannot be copied. Why can't it be done, or how would it be done? As far as the technology branches of Seele and Nerv are concerned, it is a theme of research integral to seeking out the Path to God, and study into how to deal with the problem has spanned many years. Examples of failure include Yui and Asuka's mother. The Dummy Plug is something that came about in the midst of that research.

D. In-Depth Information

The Dummy System is an artificial soul that was developed at the end of the research. In terms of functionality, however, the Dummy System was severely subpar: Although it could make Eva activate, that was the limit of its capacity.

Footnotes for 23

23-D: "In terms of functionality..." (Tada kinouteki ni wa oohabateki ni otori, Eva o ugokasu to iu teido no kinou shika motoserarenakatta: This sentence wasn't tackled by rockthing, for some reason. It literally goes something like (according to Lothe), "But it [the Dummy System] was functionally extremely poor, only having enough functionality to make the Eva move." I.e., " the Dummy System had an amount (/limit, teido) of function that was enough to make the Eva move, but it had only (shika) that much function." I reworded things somewhat with the hope that the meaning would be more clear, but if you have any suggestions for improvement... There may be a nuance missing in the second half ?- I've asked a question about how the passive causative verb here (motaserarenakatta) is working, just to be sure.

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 12:01 AM

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Postby NAveryW [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:24 pm

An... artificial soul? I thought all those dummy Reis had no souls, so apparently it's referring to the system that accepts the plug itself? Does that mean that there are two souls total within the Evangelion (three in the manga)?

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 12:05 AM

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Postby CanonRAP [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:24 pm

Reichu wrote:Okay, kids. Here to exhumate long-neglected theories and deliver another dose of "WTF?!?" (albeit one I don't mind that much, since the Dummy Plug never made sense anyway Image ), I humbly present...

Ah, here we go...

23-B wrote:An entry plug developed for use with the Dummy System. Even if no pilot is present, it can activate an Eva by making her think that a pilot is there.

The sentence "even if no pilot is present..." also seem to conveniently point out that there is nobody inside the Dummy Plug.

23-C wrote:As far as the technology branches of Seele and Nerv are concerned, it is a theme of research integral to seeking out the Path to God, and study into how to deal with the problem has spanned many years.

I do have to ask at this point...why are the Dummy Plugs so important to the HIP besides the fact that they can control the Evas without pilots?

23-C wrote:Examples of failure include Yui and Asuka's mother.

Why didn't they just say Kyoko???

23-C wrote:The Dummy Plug is something that came about in the midst of that research.

So someone (a complete guess...Akagi 'baasan'?) just came along and said, "screw making an artificial soul, let's just copy the brainwave patterns." (or something to that effect).

23-D wrote:The Dummy System is an artificial soul that was developed at the end of the research. Functionally, however, the Dummy System was severely subpar: Although it could make Eva activate, that was the limit of its capacity.

I'm still assuming that the Dummy System (inside the D-Plug) just basically emits brainwave patterns...

I suppose that the dummies in Seele HQ and Terminal Dogma were simply replacement bodies in case anything happened to either of them...since they both seem to be so important to their respective 'owners'.

23-D footnote wrote:I reworded things somewhat with the hope that the meaning would be more clear, but if you have any suggestions for improvement...

Maybe something along the lines of "functionality-wise".

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 12:19 AM

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:25 pm

CanonRAP wrote:The sentence "even if no pilot is present..." also seem to conveniently point out that there is nobody inside the Dummy Plug.

The "even if" sounds kind of weird, though. I should ponder -te mo some more.

I do have to ask at this point...why are the Dummy Plugs so important to the HIP besides the fact that they can control the Evas without pilots?

Good question.

Why didn't they just say Kyoko???

Because Asuka's mother has no name. At least, none worth speaking of. Image

So someone (a complete guess...Akagi 'baasan'?) just came along and said, "screw making an artificial soul, let's just copy the brainwave patterns." (or something to that effect).

The technology used for the MAGI and the Dummy System appears to be closely related... Incidentally, there's also this:
Episode #13

Misato:
Hey, tell me a little about the Magi.

RITSUKO (OFF):
It's a long story. And not a very interesting one, at that.
Do you know about personality transplant OS?

Misato:
Yes, it's a system that implants an individual's personality
into a seventh generation organic computer so it can think.
It's the same technology used for operating the Evas, right?

RITSUKO:
I've heard Magi was the first of them.
My mother developed the technology.Figure that part out, and maybe...

I suppose that the dummies in Seele HQ and Terminal Dogma were simply replacement bodies in case anything happened to either of them...since they both seem to be so important to their respective 'owners'.

The existence of Kaworu clones (assuming that's what you're alluding to) is just an assumption, isn't it? I'm too lam0rz on this topic to form any sort of opinion on its validity -- just playing devil's advocate.

And I am still totally flabbergasted by those Reiquarium clones, and how the stuff about Adam and Evas (which seems to make sense to my brain on its own, more or less) somehow ties back to them...
Episode #23 (Platinum)

Misato:
So, this is the source of the dummy plugs?

RITSUKO:
I will show you the truth.

Shinji:
Rei Ayanami?

Misato:
You're not saying the Evas' dummy plugs are...

RITSUKO:
That's right, the part that becomes the core of the dummy system,
and this is the manufacturing plant for it.

Misato:
This is?!

RITSUKO (OFF):
These are just dummies.
And nothing more than parts for Rei.
Man found God and in their joy, tried to make Him theirs.
That's why there was divine retribution.
That was fifteen years ago.
The God they found had also disappeared by then.
But then, they tried to resurrect God on their own.
The result was Adam.
And imitating God, they created people from Adam.
The result was the Evas.

Shinji (OFF):
People? They're human?

RITSUKO:
Yes, they're human.
The Evas do not intrinsically have souls,
but they have human souls embedded in them.
They were all salvaged.
The only vessel that contained a soul was Rei.
She was the only one born with a soul.
The Chamber of Gaf [sic] was empty, you see.
These things here that look like Rei have no souls.
They're just vessels.
That's why I'm going to destroy them.
Because I hate them.

Misato:
Do you know just what you're doing?!

RITSUKO:
Yes, I know. I'm destroying them.
They're not people. They're things shaped like people.
Maybe something along the lines of "functionality-wise".

...hmm?

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 12:36 AM

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Postby CanonRAP [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:25 pm

Reichu wrote:The technology used for the MAGI and the Dummy System appears to be closely related... Incidentally, there's also this:


..I really need to watch NGE again.

The existence of Kaworu clones (assuming that's what you're alluding to) is just an assumption, isn't it? I'm too lam0rz on this topic to form any sort of opinion on its validity -- just playing devil's advocate.

Oh right...forgot about that. Probably saw that in another thread.

And I am still totally flabbergasted by those Reiquarium clones, and how the stuff about Adam and Evas (which seems to make sense to my brain on its own, more or less) somehow ties back to them...


Mostly, I was just plucking the new stuff from C-23 and trying to somehow find out what exactly the Rei-tachi are for, in regards to the D-Plugs. Wasn't really thinking about Adam or the Evas yet Image.


...hmm?

I was referring back to your footnote, and basically saying that "Functionally, however..." might sound a bit better if it was worded "Function-wise, however..."

Now that I actually say them out loud, they sound pretty much the same...

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 01:17 AM

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:25 pm

So, not a lot more than a citation index added to Ritsuko's statement in ep#17. The ep#23 Reiquarium ranting remains unreconciled with it - no suggestion that there are organic components in the emulator or involved in MAGI-related technology.

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 02:35 AM

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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:25 pm

CanonRAP wrote:I do have to ask at this point...why are the Dummy Plugs so important to the HIP besides the fact that they can control the Evas without pilots?

SEELE needs nine 'complete' Evas to open the Path to Divinity (kami e no michi). The Evas are the key to bridging the gap between Man and God; they're the catalyst for SEELE's scenario of Third Impact. The rest of SEELE's scenario entails that Lillith spreads her anti-AT field, takes over the Evas as a result (that might explain the infinity symbol they form in EoE), and has the Evas crucify themselves. These crucifictions combined with Lillith's anti-AT field reduces individuals to a sea of LCL and allows the various souls to complement each other, which is manifested in the souls merging together with Lillith, resulting in Adam Kadmon - mankind's original form, the state in which Man and it's Creator are one.

According to the CI, SEELE wants the "immortal soul" (i.e. Adam Kadmon) to come into being on their terms. This means that no one else can be allowed to shape this divinity in their own way (which is what Gendo was planning on doing, creating his own personal vision of divinity). If there's a human soul inside Eva, then SEELE runs the risk of having that soul control the outcome of Third Impact (which is what Yui did - because Lillith was unusable, SEELE's hand was forced into using Unit 01 as a substitute, which allowed Yui, the soul inside Unit 01, to ultimately control Third Impact). It's even worse if there's a pilot inside the Eva, like Shinji and how his being inside Unit 01 gave him power to affect Third Impact. The only way to prevent this from happening is to find a way to control the Evas without having to put human souls into the Evas (whether it be the soul residing inside the Eva's core, or the pilot).

Enter the dummy plug.

We know from 24' that Kaworu (which is essentially Adam's soul) can synch with and take control of any Eva so long as that Eva doesn't have an active human soul inside (either the Eva doesn't have a soul in it period, or it simply contains a soul that is "shutting itself up" like Kyoko). This is because Kaworu is Adam's soul and the Evas are clones of Adam's body.

So the dummy plug, which emerged from the research that ultimately birthed the Human Instrumentality Project, was devised as a way of creating an artificial copy of Kaworu's personality (Adam's soul). Therefore, a Kaworu-based Dummy System would be able to activate the completed Eva series, which hypothetically SEELE could then control (I don't think SEELE ever intended to put their souls in the Eva series; I do however think that they wanted to act as remote-pilots for the Eva series, controlling their actions from the comfort of their "Sound Only" monoliths).

*phew* And that's what I've learned from NGE2. Image

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 11:24 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:25 pm

Just woke up, so can't offer any intelligent comments ATM... Hopefully things will clarify a bit more once I make a second pass through the material. There are a lot of places where it can be tightened up due to having the full context available, me getting better, and so on.

But first, I have one more entry to do.

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 12:28 PM

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Postby kaos [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:25 pm

Reichu wrote:And I am still totally flabbergasted by those Reiquarium clones, and how the stuff about Adam and Evas (which seems to make sense to my brain on its own, more or less) somehow ties back to them...

I think the Rei vessels have two backup roles:

(1) They are backup bodies for Rei's soul. So on the off chance Rei's body explodes, her soul can be salvaged and plopped into one of the backup bodies.

(2) They are embedded with backups for the dummy system (ie, the artificial copy of Rei's personality). So if they need to create a new dummy plug, they snag one of the Reis and download the system from her and into the new plug.

That explains Ritsuko and Gendo's conversation in the next episode. Something like:

GENDO:
Why did you destroy the dummy system?

RITSUKO:
It's not the dummy system you're so P.O.'ed about. It's the fact that I destroyed Rei.

Gendo's referring to (2) from above. IE, she destroyed all the backups of the dummy system so they can't create anymore plugs. Ritsuko is referring to (1) from above, saying that if Rei blows up again there won't be anywhere to put her soul. (Though, on a deeper level, she's probably also jabbing Gendo by saying he doesn't have anymore Yui clones to fawn over.)

I think that when Ritsuko calls the "vessels" the source of the dummy plugs she isn't referring to the actual bodies, she's referring to the dummy system (ie, artificial personality) that is embedded within the bodies.

I agree that Ritsuko's sudden shift into talking about Adam and Eva seem's kind of out of left field. My only guess would be that she is either trying to go into an overly-detailed explanation of where the Reis came from (ie, she's the only one born witha soul, yada yada); or somehow in her own mind she made a connection between Rei and how Kaworu was born.

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 01:05 PM

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Postby SonGokuQ [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:30 pm

Someone's probably going to stone me for asking this question but here it goes anyway. Who or what is Lilith? I saw somewhere in this thread that Lilith = Rie.

I also saw "The Angels are all heading for Nerv H.Q. so that they can make contact with Lilith, the white giant in Terminal Dogma. They were aiming for her from the start, not Adam." I thought that white giant thing with the seven eyes was Adam. I've went through this entire thread and a couple others and still I'm confused.

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 03:49 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:30 pm

^ Have you seen the entire series? If so, watch episode #24 and EoE again.
If not, watch episode #24 and EoE.

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 04:07 PM

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Postby sheaman [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:31 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:Not really - it's not something I can tie up to any obvious bit of real physics, or even widely known fringe material.

I'm wicked late but helix=dna?

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 11:25 PM

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Postby sheaman [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:31 pm

Reichu from 20 part 2 wrote:Ultimately, because of the phenomenon apparently caused by her S2 Engine artificially going into overdrive, the absolute catastrophe -? the resetting of all life due to A.T. Fields being extinguished ?- prevented the formation of a solely Adam-based ecosystem.* This is called the Second Impact. The incident blew Adam completely apart.

* Troublesome sentence. Working on this.

I'll help with fixing the whole sentence if you want, but try this:

"prevented the formation of an ecosystem solely reliant on Adam"
"prevented the formation of an ecosystem based on Adam"
"prevented the formation of an ecosystem which would grow out of Adam" <- sounds like it's literally growing out of Adam though

and i think you could change this too
"the resetting of all life due to A.T. Fields being extinguished"
to
"the destruction of A.T. Fields, resulting in the resetting/extinguishment of all life"

Originally posted on: 06.27.2006, 11:53 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:31 pm

^ Ah, that's the old crap translation. I posted a better one shortly afterwards... but I suppose I should revise the primary, flashy-looking post.

Originally posted on: 06.28.2006, 12:05 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:31 pm

Yay, the last one...! Even though I probably should (there's one sorta quirky item), I don't feel like typing up transration notes right now. I'll fill you in later. Maybe my latest questions at AL will have been addressed by then, anyway.

But, f**k, the last day of June?!? I better hurry my butt up and get this onto FGC... (I hope people don't care if I can only arrange the most ghetto possible site "relaunch" by the end of July. Image)

*****

24. Geofront

A. Publicly Released Information

The facilities for Nerv Headquarters were constructed in a mysterious, giant, underground space existing beneath Tokyo-3. It is a hemispherical cavity with a diameter of 6 km and a height of 0.9 km, but 89% of it is currently buried. Sunlight is sent in by optical fibers from a light-condensing block on the surface, maintaining a level of brightness comparable to that on the surface. Although Nerv facilities are nearly the only things being constructed, there are also evacuation shelters for civilians.

B. Generally Recognized Information

In addition to the Geofront where Nerv Headquarters is located, there was one at the South Pole. Moreover, the First Angel, designated "Adam", was discovered within it.

C. Confidential Information

The Geofronts' true identities are the "Black Moon", where Nerv Headquarters is located, and the "White Moon" at the South Pole. Lilith is in the Black Moon, and Adam is in the White.

D. In-Depth Information

Initially, the White Moon -- containing Adam -- fell to Earth. The Black Moon, which originally should have gone to a different solar system, was captured by Earth's gravity, and, after it crashed into the Earth's surface and bounced, it became a satellite orbiting the planet. It left behind only its ruins and remained in the heavens, and Lilith, the Seed that the Black Moon had carried, was implanted into Earth. Lilith's landing site is believed to have been in the vicinity of what is now called the South Pole, but it was later moved by tectonic plates, ultimately as far as the Hakone region of Japan. That site is the giant cavern of Hakone, and the future Nerv Headquarters would be constructed here.

Footnotes for 24

Maybe later...

Originally posted on: 06.30.2006, 01:21 PM

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Postby NAveryW [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:31 pm

A quick note; your translation makes it seem like the White Moon is at the South Pole, then changes so that it's in space. Should it say that a cavity caused by the white moon was found in Antarctica?

Originally posted on: 06.30.2006, 04:36 PM


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