Yet another EoE Questions Thread

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Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:12 am

THE TREASURY OF SOULS

The souls of all those who have yet been born are kept in the Guf, the Treasury of Souls, also known as the Chamber of Creation. There each soul waits for its turn to be born. ... As soon as the soul leaves the Guf, it divests itself of its heavenly garment, and is clothed in a garment of flesh and blood.

... When the time comes for a soul to leave this world, the Angel of Death strips off the worldly garment, and at the same instant the soul is clothed in the holy garment that was stripped away when it descended to this world. Then the soul delights in having been stripped of its worldly body and in having its original garment restored. And the souls who have departed from their earthly bodies return to that same treasury, and fly before the Throne of Glory in the presence of God. And when the time comes for a human to be born, the angel Gabriel puts his hand into the Treasury of Souls and takes out the first soul that comes into his hand. If the person is fortunate, a great soul comes into his hand; if not a spark of a soul inhabits the body.

... There are those who says that the Guf contains an infinite number of souls, while others insist there is only a finite number of souls in it, and that the Messiah will not come until the Guf has been emptied of every soul. ...

And when the last soul has descended and the Guf is empty, the first infant to be born without a soul, born dead as such an infant must be, will herald the death of the world and so is called the final sign. Then ... the world, as we know it, will end, and the End of Days will begin.Also, Lilith/Rei in the show can be intimately associated with the kabbalistic version of Shekinah (female aspect of God, and the bridge between God and the earthly realm). In my overanalytical way, I was amused here by a note, "...Rabbi Moshe describes the soul as a spiritual light that emanates from the Shekinah." There was something else I read in one of my books with regard to Shekinah that reminded me of NGE, but I can't find it right now.

Anyway. The idea of the Lilith's Guf in NGE needing to provide a soul for every human being that's born doesn't seem to work very well, since in the original version God had a bunch of Angels who would take care of the whole "getting souls to embryos" part. Who the heck knows how it works. Since souls in NGE are living things, maybe they can reproduce, and once Lilith got the initial batch of human souls out there they could handle matters from there. Mayhaps "metabiological genetics" is one of the factors in Eva-Pilot Mother-Child stuff. </blatant>

Oh, right. So I figure that we let NGE tell us what parts of the myth are used, not have the myth tell us how NGE works. Suppose that the Guf is indeed some kind of pocket space, a reservoir if you will, containing unborn souls, and it is attached to a curatress-soul. Under certain circumstances, the Guf manifests in the world-as-we-know-it as a blackish thing, and souls are released from the Chamber into the world through the palms for some cryptic reason. Under other circumstances, souls can go back into the/a Guf through the Doors. (If a soul wants to be REborn, say.)

When Ritsuko said that the Evas do not intrinsically have souls, I've guessed that maybe she is referring to something about their innate nature as Adam-based life. Under the raw speculation that Adam birthed the Apostles (as eggs) before she was speared, and only gave them souls in 1999, that means that they, well, intrinsically lack souls. If this is just the way they are, I suppose it would go to follow that the Evas would be the same way. Since their bodies don't depend on souls to exist, they can all get away with it.

But with Lilim made out of LCL stuff, the same doesn't seem to apply. If your body can't exist without a soul (...how does that work with dismemberment?), or some such thing, the soul needs to come first, and the body follows.

Originally posted on: 08.04.2006, 06:28 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:12 am

That would sorta mean that the soulless child marking the end of the world cannot so much as be BORN in the NGE world, since it would be, in theory, impossible. Maybe the Chamber of Guf being emptied means something completely different here.

Suppose...

Lilim can provide souls for their offspring, as Lilim, by their very nature, are meant to come into existence ('be born') with them. Adam's children (natural and artificial) do not, and they are given souls after the fact: by Adam herself (#03 ~ #16), or salvaged in artificially (Tabris with Adam's, and then Adam's back into Adam; Lilim into Evas). Under the premise that EVA-01 is simply a regular Eva "fashioned from Lilith's flesh", the surrogate daughter theory, her intrinsic lack of soul is accounted for in the same way, and she would not be expected to come out of Lilith already having one. (But if you don't like that bit of fanwank, what I'm writing right now isn't any better.)

So what about Rei? One theory for Rei's origin is that Rei 1 was an incidental creation, what Gendo got instead of Yui when he attempted to pull of a salvage op. Yui didn't budge from EVA-01 and allow her old body to be reconstructed from the juice in the entry plug, nosirree. "Dear, you just don't understand. I can't do that. I want to live and make sure that everyone else doesn't die, and that's why I'm staying here. Fuyutsuki-sensei, why haven't you told that silly man yet?" Perhaps, instead, Lilith's soul was somehow channeled out of her body -- made possible by the fact that EVA-01 and Lilith were connected at the time -- by Gendo-tachi's efforts and put into a brand-spankin' new Yui facsimile. And this is why "Rei was the only one born with a soul", implicitly referring to Rei 1.

Then, there is a lot of stuff yet unexplained with this take, like the stuff about Rei being born in that room. If she was born with a soul inside EVA-01's entry plug, how could that decrepit room also be the room where she was born?

I forget where I was going with this.

Originally posted on: 08.04.2006, 07:24 PM

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Postby Tidusauron12 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:12 am

Reichu wrote:and then Adam's back into Adam;
.

You always lose me here...

Originally posted on: 08.04.2006, 07:28 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:12 am

Tidusauron12 wrote:You always lose me here...

You would need to elaborate.

Originally posted on: 08.04.2006, 07:37 PM

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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:12 am

Reichu wrote:Totally off-topic, but I just noticed this... Buh?

Heh... I got that from here. It doesn't seem like bochan_bird's an advocate of the "partial soul theory" and expressed that through a parody (kind of) of the #21' script.

But it made me laugh. Image

Reichu wrote:On-topic, I'm not quite sure how to address your question, kaos, since the Black Moon is still something I'm full of questions about. Sticking to the basics of the Guf and the Moons, on their own, first seems more approachable.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the idea of the sphere inside GNR (the one that all the Reis swim towards) as to being Lilith's CoG. The Black Moon alone being the Chamber of Guf doesn't make much sense, especially since Fuyutsuki only says that the CoG is unsealed after Lilith spreads her wings, not after the Black Moon is ripped from the Earth.

Reichu wrote:I'm not sure how Ritsuko makes the jump from Rei clones to Adam to Evas to Rei and finally back to Rei clones. (In the full rant.)

Her rant is, basically, on the nature of 'living' things that don't have souls at birth (which is exactly what Rei is - part of the reason why Ritsuko hates her). Both the Evas and Reis are similar in this regard, in that they are created without initially having souls (this is because the Chamber of Guf is empty - there weren't any unborn souls left to give to the Evas or Reis). As a result, both the Evas and Reis have to live off salvaged souls.

Reichu wrote:Why the hands would be in-doors and out-doors for some dark quantum pocket-space (I actually proposed this a little while back without explaining the idea; don't feel like reposting it ATM) in the core is a little odd. For whatever reason, I'm reminded of the way that the hands are used as focal points for certain kinds of ATF Magic. For example, when Yui pulls Sachiel's field apart like curtains, and Zero does similarly with Sahaquiel; Yui "throws" her ATF at Zeruel and slices through his arms, his barrier, and then rips up his body; and Kyoko "catching" the VTOLs in a cast of her ATF and them exploding. Of course, the ATF itself originates from the soul, which is inside the core. Could it be something similar with the Guf and its "Doors"?

Personally, I don't think the idea of the Doors being on Adam/Lilith's hands is worth heavy duty analysis. Hands are essentially Anno's trademark as a director, and only are used to associate certain scenes with others (for the purpose of parallelism, irony, etc).

Reichu wrote:So what about Rei? One theory for Rei's origin is that Rei 1 was an incidental creation, what Gendo got instead of Yui when he attempted to pull of a salvage op. Yui didn't budge from EVA-01 and allow her old body to be reconstructed from the juice in the entry plug, nosirree. "Dear, you just don't understand. I can't do that. I want to live and make sure that everyone else doesn't die, and that's why I'm staying here. Fuyutsuki-sensei, why haven't you told that silly man yet?" Perhaps, instead, Lilith's soul was somehow channeled out of her body -- made possible by the fact that EVA-01 and Lilith were connected at the time -- by Gendo-tachi's efforts and put into a brand-spankin' new Yui facsimile. And this is why "Rei was the only one born with a soul", implicitly referring to Rei 1.

That's what I think. Part of Naoko and Ritusko's jealousy towards Rei is that she's just another human (albeit, one who looks like Yui) that Gendo seems to favor more. If they knew she contained the soul of humanity's progenitor, they'd probably be less... hateful, towards her.

It was always my idea that Gendo was never made privy to Yui's true and final goal: to create a living monument out of Eva-01 (with Yui as the resident soul). This would explain Gendo's week-long grieving period, as well his determination to be reunited with her, while Yui would rather not see him again (kind of).

So basically, after Yui was swallowed into the Eva's core, they attempted a salvage operation. However, when attempting to rebuild Yui's body, they created Rei instead. More than that, due to the Eva being connected to Lilith (and Yui's own determination to stay in the Eva's core), they extracted Lilith's soul by accident. So the op is deemed a failure (since they didn't rebuild Yui, and got a byproduct of her instead), and only Gendo and Fuyutsuki are aware of what Rei is.

Although that doesn't explain why and how Rei was born in the room in Terminal Dogma. Maybe only an egg, or embryo, of Rei was created in Eva-01's entry plug, and they had it transferred into the aforementioned room where it grew into Rei?

Originally posted on: 08.06.2006, 05:55 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:12 am

Blader5489 wrote:It doesn't seem like bochan_bird's an advocate of the "partial soul theory" and expressed that through a parody (kind of) of the #21' script.

He doesn't seem to be an advocate of certain other things... Sigh. If they're going to chew me out behind my back, I might as well go and chew them out for chewing me out. (NO PLACE IS REICHU-SAFE!!!)

But it made me laugh. Image

I didn't get it, really. Why did he use me and Aaron?

And what kind of reputation do I have on the ML, anyway?

Personally, I'm leaning towards the idea of the sphere inside GNR (the one that all the Reis swim towards) as to being Lilith's CoG.

The sphere is called a "dark-red moon" in the script. The image that came to my mind was of it representing Lilith's core, in a way, and all of her myriad incarnations returning to their source. Innumerable naked, human corpses are floating around in this vast space -- what do these represent?

http://www.evageeks.org/episode...nim_7frame.gif

The Black Moon alone being the Chamber of Guf doesn't make much sense, especially since Fuyutsuki only says that the CoG is unsealed after Lilith spreads her wings, not after the Black Moon is ripped from the Earth.

I certainly don't think the CoG is something of this world as we know it -- more weird quantum stuff. Pursuing the astrological Black/Dark Moon and the lead with Kether seems like it may yield some helpful tidbits.

Her rant is, basically, on the nature of 'living' things that don't have souls at birth (which is exactly what Rei is - part of the reason why Ritsuko hates her). Both the Evas and Reis are similar in this regard, in that they are created without initially having souls (this is because the Chamber of Guf is empty - there weren't any unborn souls left to give to the Evas or Reis). As a result, both the Evas and Reis have to live off salvaged souls.

If there were no unborn souls to give to the Evas or Rei, that means that the Chamber has been empty since, like, they started putzing around with Evas, and that is quite falsifiable in the show. (There are children younger than their teens in the NGE universe, who would not be able to exist without souls.) Interpreting the lines this way requires strict adherence to the myth-version, and that probably isn't a very good idea.

Personally, I don't think the idea of the Doors being on Adam/Lilith's hands is worth heavy duty analysis.

Well.. okay. Forget I said anything.

That's what I think. Part of Naoko and Ritusko's jealousy towards Rei is that she's just another human (albeit, one who looks like Yui) that Gendo seems to favor more. If they knew she contained the soul of humanity's progenitor, they'd probably be less... hateful, towards her.

Are you proposing that Ritsuko doesn't know who Rei is...? Image

It was always my idea that Gendo was never made privy to Yui's true and final goal: to create a living monument out of Eva-01 (with Yui as the resident soul).

What is a "living monument" supposed to be? Evolving Eva into a Seed seems to make considerably more sense when all is considered. Do you REALLY turn yourself into an uber-being, take the Spear of Longinus, and float off into space in order to do... nothing at all?

This would explain Gendo's week-long grieving period, as well his determination to be reunited with her, while Yui would rather not see him again (kind of).

Then why does she go with Kaworu and Rei to Heaven's Door, have a brief chat with him, and leave only his lower half behind? (...and at the end of EoTV, Yui and Gendo are shown standing together.)

More than that, due to the Eva being connected to Lilith (and Yui's own determination to stay in the Eva's core), they extracted Lilith's soul by accident.

But one wonders how Lilith's soul could be extracted by accident -- wouldn't Lilith have a desire to be in her own body, as well?

Originally posted on: 08.06.2006, 08:02 PM

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Reichu wrote:He doesn't seem to be an advocate of certain other things... Sigh.

He seems a little confused on some issues. He doesn't realise that "Adam is female" and "Koworu is female" are two separate premises. While I support the first, I regard the second as being provably false. Even leaving aside my own beliefs, it's clear that the matter of a female Adam is open to significantly more debate than the matter of a female Kaworu.

Leaving that discussion aside, though, I'm pretty sure you still regard those as being separate matters. It offends me that Bochan regards the "female Adam" theory as yours, though. In truth, it is as much my theory as it is yours, and I was the one to bring everyone's attention to what I regard as proof.

EvaML seems to be opposed to most of the theories that have been put forward on this board over the last couple of years, not to say openly hostile to those theories. I suppose it's nice to have a balance.

Originally posted on: 08.06.2006, 08:13 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Image But I like femme-Kaworu!!! She makes me feel all warm and fluffy inside!

But via careful partitioning, I may attempt to maintain some level of professionalism when required. Although this sectioned-off bit of grey matter would inevitably view him as a strange transgender personality.

"Shinji-kun! I am a billions-years-old mother trapped in this horrible, wrong-sexed body! Please, kill me now so that I might legally manifest with a pleasantly androgynous-looking groin later!!!"
"I don't know what the hell you're talking about, Kaworu-kun...!"
"Um, okay, how about this... Kill me, or, uh, my continued existence will destroy all humanity. Yeah."
"Oh crap. I'll have to think about this one."
"Just do it before the battery runs out, okay?" :smile:

Nevermind.

Regarding hostility: Seeing instances where people are talking about me outside of my "territory" in ways that could be nicer often makes me think twice before I do something similar.

Originally posted on: 08.06.2006, 08:40 PM

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Reichu wrote:Image But I like femme-Kaworu!!! She makes me feel all warm and fluffy inside!

I understand that, and I understand why. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of you liking it, but you're just going to have to accept that you've assumed a position at the forefront of Eva geekery, and whatever you say carries a certain weight. That brings with it responsibilities. If you'd been content to confine mention of such things to threads labelled "fanfic", then perhaps there would not be such a furore about it.

I know perfectly well that you weren't in your ideal frame of mind at the time you mentioned these things for the first time, and you probably feel that it is unfair that things said at a time of weakness are still held against you, but there is a saying of which I am rather fond.

"The bell does not un-ring quite so loudly."

But via careful partitioning, I may attempt to maintain some level of professionalism when required. Although this sectioned-off bit of grey matter would inevitably view him as a strange transgender personality.

I understand that this is your position at the present time, and I was pleasantly surprised to see that the "Gender" page of the Commentary includes no mention of F--K. However, your "revelations" will have made a lasting impression on some.

Regarding hostility: Seeing instances where people are talking about me outside of my "territory" in ways that could be nicer often makes me think twice before I do something similar.

Touche.

Originally posted on: 08.06.2006, 08:54 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Soluzar wrote:but you're just going to have to accept that you've assumed a position at the forefront of Eva geekery, and whatever you say carries a certain weight.

In this case, it carried... er... no weight at all? I know of one person at EMF who somehow came under the impression that f-K was "popular" over here, and I was all, "WTF...?"

If you'd been content to confine mention of such things to threads labelled "fanfic", then perhaps there would not be such a furore about it.

I think confining so much as idle musings to "fanfic" threads would be a bit, erm, con/restrictive. I'm pretty sure it's the way f-K debuted that heated up the irons, and soon after (if not immediately) branded it with its stigma.

I understand that this is your position at the present time, and I was pleasantly surprised to see that the "Gender" page of the Commentary includes no mention of F--K.

The "Gender" page has been totally unedited in eons and I probably need to zap it dead or something. (Or...) Dr. Nick kanchoed even the slightest intimation towards femme-K in the Geektionary. She still gets to nag Asuka in the girls' bathroom, though.

However, your "revelations" will have made a lasting impression on some.

Sad, but true. Not the best lenses to be persistently viewed through.

EDIT: Hmm, you're right. It only just registered with me that bb is, indeed, treating the "Adam = female" and "Kaworu = female" arguments as if they were somehow the same thing. I guess he didn't notice the fact that I called Kaworu "he" in the CI translation, either.

Originally posted on: 08.06.2006, 09:29 PM

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Hmm, you're right.

By the operation of the law of averages, it has to happen sometimes. Image

It only just registered with me that bb is, indeed, treating the "Adam = female" and "Kaworu = female" arguments as if they were somehow the same thing. I guess he didn't notice the fact that I called Kaworu "he" in the CI translation, either.

It jumped out at me straight away, and I think that one might safely take that as evidence that he doesn't entirely read the theories that he is criticising.

Originally posted on: 08.06.2006, 10:14 PM

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Postby MagicianCamille [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Hey you guys, stop bypassing the censors! Image

Originally posted on: 08.06.2006, 10:33 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

MagicianCamille wrote:Hey you guys, stop bypassing the censors! Image

Oh, f-K...!

Well, I engaged "M" (bochan_bird no longer exists, apparently) in geek-combat. He put forward a Yin-Yang correlation between Lilith and Adam, ultimately concluding that they're both asexual, and dismisses the literal "mother" meaning of haha (as in "Adam... warera no haha taru sonzai") on the basis that haha can mean many other things, namely a progenitor-organism in more scientific settings. (And thus, his translation is "progenitor".) He also seems to have a rather vehement opposition to what he considers feministic motivators on my part, or some such thing. [But I noted the irrelevance of such to the matter at hand. :cough:ad hominem:cough:other advocates:cough: ] A possible analogy:

"M"/bb : "feminism" :: Dr.Nick : f-K

I was also rather surprised to find that, on the ML, the locals were scoffing at intimations in Chronicle #1 that the S^2 Engine is located in the core. Image

Man. "Internet. Serious business."

...What were we talking about again?

Originally posted on: 08.07.2006, 11:07 AM

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Reichu wrote:Well, I engaged "M" (bochan_bird no longer exists, apparently) in geek-combat. He put forward a Yin-Yang correlation between Lilith and Adam, ultimately concluding that they're both asexual,

I saw. I can't help but feel that there's no actual support for his theory in the anime, and that he simply pulled it out of his arse. Mine being based on actual dialog from an episode seems to place it on rather a more firm footing.
and dismisses the literal "mother" meaning of haha (as in "Adam... warera no haha taru sonzai") on the basis that haha can mean many other things, namely a progenitor-organism in more scientific settings. (And thus, his translation is "progenitor".)

Which ignores Shin-Seiki's excellent principle of analysis, which is to take all things at face value, unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise.
He also seems to have a rather vehement opposition to what he considers feministic motivators on my part, or some such thing. [But I noted the irrelevance of such to the matter at hand. :cough:ad hominem

Quite. It's usually a sign of desperation when your opponent resorts to ad hominem tactics. I'm not impressed with "M" at all.
...What were we talking about again?

I forget, and therefore this thread is now about amusing pictures of cats. Please do enjoy ShowerCat.

Image

Originally posted on: 08.07.2006, 11:25 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Soluzar wrote:I saw. I can't help but feel that there's no actual support for his theory in the anime, and that he simply pulled it out of his arse.

Fu~. Now, while I'm uneasy with this "talking about people behind their back stuff" (and it's more like "under his nose", since he drops in at ANF periodically), I am interested in what others (who don't feel like joing the EML) think of this. In response to the femme-pronouns in the CI (starting here):

Ebj wrote:...please, the "her" bit sounds much like undue feminism at all
costs (after having read other stuff by the same person).

M wrote:For anyone who isn't aware, this is Reichu's "Adam/Kaworu is female" theory, which has garnered a bit of attention (and support) on
various forums.

I have avoided it so far, but since it appears that it will become an
issue with the CI translation (i.e. "the next RCB") and also in the
next manga stage, we might as well deal with it now.

My position is that it is completely without merit.
Reichu's argument is based largely on an incomplete understanding of
a single kanji taken out of context and questionable interpretations
of certain screen shots, and it is also heavily influenced by
Reichu's personal bias which, as EBJ described above, is "undue
feminism at all costs." (She herself has stated that using the male
pronoun "he/him" in the translation of certain passages grates on her
personal philosophy.)

I believe I am familiar with most of the "evidence" for this theory,
and am absolutely confident that I can simply and logically refute
every single one, not to mention building a strong case that Adam/
Kaworu either represents masculine (Yang/Yo) qualities or is at the
very least "gender neutral".

The Yin-Yang stuff:

Peter Svensson wrote:I expect much angry posting when people read the quite... interesting... backstory for Adam and Lilith. I mean, it kind of makes sense (and even ties back into the original Evangelion proposal a bit) but it does mean that one of the basic assumptions we've had about Adam and Lilith is completely false.

M wrote:Not angry, but more a bit skeptical because it basically makes the
duality (Ying/Yang (In/Yo)) which is stressed so much in the show a
non-issue, which again just seems wrong.

"In the end, we are all fan-wankers." (What strength flows through my veins since I started using that word on myself!)

Which ignores Shin-Seiki's excellent principle of analysis, which is to take all things at face value, unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise.

That's what I said.

Well, if you like, you can see for yourself here.

Quite. It's usually a sign of desperation when your opponent resorts to ad hominem tactics.

WOULD the attack of an idea on such a basis be considered ad hominem? (I've been struggling to use the term correctly for a while.)
I'm not impressed with "M" at all.

First impressions are that he takes himself a bit too seriously. (A mistake anyone can make...)

I'll let Blader restore this thread to on-topicness. Hopefully.

Originally posted on: 08.07.2006, 11:56 AM

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Reichu wrote:WOULD the attack of an idea on such a basis be considered ad hominem? (I've been struggling to use the term correctly for a while.)

I tend to think so. The fact that you hold what might be called feminist views does not have any direct bearing on the gender of Adam. Since there is what I would refer to as compelling evidence - Bochan_Bird's brusque dismissal notwithstanding - for this theory, your own "predjudice" is irrelevant. By choosing to direct his argument at the irrelevant views you hold, rather than the basis of your argument, Bochan_Bird is making a form of ad hominem attack which is called poisoining the well.

As an introduction to unscrupulous debate techniques, I recommend this page, which is a feature on common types types oof fallacious arguments. In much the same vein I also urge you to peruse this section of the SkepticWiki.

Finally, in order that we should not only be able to detect such arguments when employed by others, but also avoid inadvertantly employing them ourselves, I would suggest a read through this page, which offers an introduction to constructing logical arguments.

All of the above is not meant to suggest that I believe you could use a refresher course, though. I'm simply assuming that your interest in the defintion of an ad hominem attack suggest that you share my interest in debate technique and logic. Not every conversation needs to be a logical debate, but it is always wise to be armed for a battle of wits.
I'll let Blader restore this thread to on-topicness. Hopefully.

Meanie. Image

Originally posted on: 08.07.2006, 12:10 PM

Blader5489 [ANF]
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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Reichu wrote:Innumerable naked, human corpses are floating around in this vast space -- what do these represent?

LCL? Since human bodies are made of LCL, and a sea of LCL would essentially be a whole lot of lifeless humans, perhaps Lilith's blood would be best represented by a sea of corpses?

Reichu wrote:If there were no unborn souls to give to the Evas or Rei, that means that the Chamber has been empty since, like, they started putzing around with Evas, and that is quite falsifiable in the show. (There are children younger than their teens in the NGE universe, who would not be able to exist without souls.) Interpreting the lines this way requires strict adherence to the myth-version, and that probably isn't a very good idea.

On the contrary, I think interpreting Ritusko's rant using the original context of the Judaic CoG is the best, and only, way of explaining what she's talking about. I can't imagine how, or why, she would be referring to an SoL's "Chamber of Guf."

Reichu wrote:Well.. okay. Forget I said anything.

Well I'm not trying to just shoot your argument down quickly. It's just the Anno has a habit of using hands to express ideas and concepts throughout the show, and it's probably not worth pursuing as to why the Doors are on an SoL's hands (a better question would be: why does Anno use hands in the first place as a recurring visual motif?).

Reichu wrote:What is a "living monument" supposed to be?

Essentially, a big purple "Here lies humanity..." Image

Reichu wrote:Evolving Eva into a Seed seems to make considerably more sense when all is considered.

How so?

Reichu wrote:Then why does she go with Kaworu and Rei to Heaven's Door, have a brief chat with him, and leave only his lower half behind? (...and at the end of EoTV, Yui and Gendo are shown standing together.)

But wasn't that just Lilith's "messengers of salvation" manifesting themselves as Yui, Kaworu, etc? I mean, that couldn't have been the real Yui or the real Eva-01 as they were both in space.

Reichu wrote:But one wonders how Lilith's soul could be extracted by accident -- wouldn't Lilith have a desire to be in her own body, as well?

Well, wasn't Lilith crucified? That's usually enough to stop her from doing anything.



Wow... how disheartening. I just typed up a large post in response to the Reichu/Soluzar/"M"/ML/female Adam issue when I accidentally hit the home key. Image_

I might retype it later, but long story short: I agree with M and Eva Monkey (the Seeds being physically asexual - especially since being physically female would still prevent Adam and Lilith from creating life). The duality argument that M brought up fits extremely well with what the show presents us, not to mention the fact that the translation of the word being "progenitor" (as opposed to a female mother) makes more sense given the context of the NGE universe and the context of NGE being a Japanese show that carries the weight of Eastern, not Western, culture.

And yes, that was the short version. Image

Originally posted on: 08.07.2006, 12:44 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

I make a poor logician, and much of the heavier stuff goes over my head, but many of the debate premises were ones of which I was already abstractly aware and have held "ideals towards". So, yes, you could say that an interest is there, and I do feel it is useful to be able to recognize counter-productive methods, regardless of who is employing them. (I think I already realized an error I've made... crap.)

But when it comes to geek-combat, taking things REALLY seriously is one of the worst mistakes, in the end.

I still wonder WTF "undue feminism" is supposed to mean. (Defending Shinji's character against certain kinds of attacks must surely count, as well.)

Originally posted on: 08.07.2006, 01:04 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Blader5489 wrote:LCL? Since human bodies are made of LCL, and a sea of LCL would essentially be a whole lot of lifeless humans, perhaps Lilith's blood would be best represented by a sea of corpses?

I was thinking more along the lines that they represented human souls.

On the contrary, I think interpreting Ritusko's rant using the original context of the Judaic CoG is the best, and only, way of explaining what she's talking about. I can't imagine how, or why, she would be referring to an SoL's "Chamber of Guf."

What about the various points that I made?

How so?

I thought I already mentioned some of the relevant ideas?

But wasn't that just Lilith's "messengers of salvation" manifesting themselves as Yui, Kaworu, etc? I mean, that couldn't have been the real Yui or the real Eva-01 as they were both in space.

Lilith is appearing everywhere as Rei 3, so why not? And if it isn't EVA-01, then who bites off Gendo's upper torso?

I might retype it later, but long story short: I agree with M and Eva Monkey (the Seeds being physically asexual - especially since being physically female would still prevent Adam and Lilith from creating life).

It wouldn't be an impediment to Lilith, who "bleeds" it (and in a blatantly feminine manner, from the womb). And it's possible that Adam was impregnated in advance. There are other factors unaccounted for, as well.

The duality argument that M brought up fits extremely well with what the show presents us, not to mention the fact that the translation of the word being "progenitor" (as opposed to a female mother) makes more sense given the context of the NGE universe and the context of NGE being a Japanese show that carries the weight of Eastern, not Western, culture.

I am currently skeptical. From what bb said, his take on haha is going into the scientific, which seems a bit inappropriate. I also mentioned in a post to the board how "mother" is completely consistent with one of NGE's most prominent themes, and there's no reason to not take it at face value.

Also, the argument "They are Yin/Yang, and thus asexual" makes no real sense. "Which one is it, M?" I'm not sure how much he's considered Adam and Lilith's status as equals, two peers among many, either. He seemed to dismiss the CI discussing their natures quite readily in favor of the ML's preconception -- what was it? "One SoL + Giant Impact = Two SoLs"?

I suppose I wouldn't consider his formulaic analogy any more "proof" than are considered the parallels I've provided regarding "Kaworu Katsuragi".

Originally posted on: 08.07.2006, 01:18 PM

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Reichu wrote:And another curiosity: Once Adam begins the "sweep", her hands take up a rather strange gesture.

Image

I find most of your juxtapositions highly interesting, but this just screams selective screencap picking. With enough time and patience, I'm sure it would be possible to create a montage of each and every regular character in the show holding their fingers like that.

Reichu wrote:He put forward a Yin-Yang correlation between Lilith and Adam, ultimately concluding that they're both asexual, and dismisses the literal "mother" meaning of haha (as in "Adam... warera no haha taru sonzai") on the basis that haha can mean many other things, namely a progenitor-organism in more scientific settings. (And thus, his translation is "progenitor".)

Is there any other word for "progenitor" Kaworu could have used instead of haha?

Originally posted on: 08.07.2006, 01:35 PM


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