According to #12, the "dome" is still there after the wings spread:



But, fifteen years later, the South Pole looks like this from orbit:



I'll let you people think about that one, since I don't wanna.

So... At any rate. To get back on track, some points:
Opening of Adam's Doors is prognosticated by Katsuragi Team; when it happens is unknown.Shortly after the above forecast, we *do* get closeups of Adam's hands roving across the screen.After formation of "dome", Adam is seen with "black core".Tree of Life flies away from the epicenter of the explosion.
Back to Yui in the Sky... momentarily.

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 06:55 PM

Soon after her ascent, Yui is "crucified" by the Eva Series:


(click for ani-gif)

Earlier, I suggested that the stigmata were created to serve as Doors of Guf, as part of EVA-01's yorishiro function. Now, you boys have been good and dutiful, and reminded my naughty brain that the events unfolding are Seele operating as if THIS was gonna be it -- so a number of things troubling me have made a bit more sense as a result. The harpies' apparently uneventful AATF, for example. And you've come up with a take on my Stigmata=Doors idea that fits the context much better (far as I can see).

According to this premise that the medium function and the stigmata are connected, EVA-01's planned role (in Seele's eyes) was supplanted by Lilith -- in, I believe you've suggested, this manner:



So, did Yui get holes punched through her hands for nothing? Let's go back to this scene:





One question that has not been seriously addressed, IMO, is "Just what the hell is GNK actually doing?" This isn't just a giant Kaworu -- it's Adam, appearing in the (ghostly white) image of her dead Lilim persona. The part of this scene that most people see is the brief interplay between Kaworu (GNK Edition) and Shinji. (And, even then...) But isn't something also happening between Adam and Shinji's mom, on another level entirely?

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 08:28 PM

Reichu wrote:

Apparently, there's something dark and round inside her core that shows through the outside as a two-stage gradation. (The gradation is noted in the storyboards.) This is rather weird, as EVA-01 has never exhibited such a nuclear feature before. Also strangely, if you look really closely, the Spear's shadow doesn't fall upon this dark circle as if it were spherical; but when the core closes, the dark circle actually seems to be physical, and flexible.

That is an awesome clip.

Is it just me or does that black core look like it's actually reaching out for the spear just before it closes.

Is this supposed to correlate to the "It's sinking in" part from 2I?

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 08:47 PM

(I'll be addressing GNK as "Adam" for the following, so don't jump and snap if you see a "she".)

Aside from how strange the Giant Naked Dyad is, in and of itself...



...doesn't anything else here strike you as being a bit... odd?



Nya?!?



"You've been hiding something in those all along, Kaworu-kun?"

And another curiosity: Once Adam begins the "sweep", her hands take up a rather strange gesture.



And that's not something these eyes forget.

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 09:00 PM

While Yui is being "wrung" by the Spear, not only do they draw attention to her palms, and the gaping holes marking their centers...



...but there's that gesticulation again.



Are they trying to link Adam and Yui hand-to-hand here?

Recall the things I highlighted from the 2I ensemble. And here in the 3I one, we revisit the cut of Adam's "roving hands" -- but, in this case, they emerge from the sides of her hips (?!?) and their target is EVA-01. We have a variation on "black core". We have stigmata (Doors of Guf?) and emphasis upon them. The scene ends with EVA-01 "returning" (or whatever) to the Tree of Life (which last existed on 2I, apparently), with the "aid" of the Spear.

Considering what we've learned about hands in NGE... Is it possible that something 'passed between' Adam and Yui, off-camera? And is that dark form within Yui's core something we have, in fact, known about all this time, but not matched up to any visuals -- even the ones right under our very noses? (Something, say, intimately connected to the palms?)

Phew. Let's see what you guys make of all that.

kaos wrote:That is an awesome clip.

Thanks. Much suffering went into the preparation of all these visuals.

Is it just me or does that black core look like it's actually reaching out for the spear just before it closes.

Now that you mention it, I guess it kinda does. (Actually, the way the black form suddenly jumps forward right before the core closes kind of bothers me somehow. ; )

Is this supposed to correlate to the "It's sinking in" part from 2I?

Dunno. I'm having a hard time getting my head around the idea that it "sank into" Adam, anyway, since the ToL is "up there", and the Wings of Light are "down there", and Adam already has the requirements of blowing up and becoming an egg (however that works) to satisfy, let alone becoming a Tree. Not to mention that the Spear was "sinking in" around 00:33, and Adam didn't even start walking until ~ 01:00. </inarticulate>

Well, there *are*, at least, those fifteen* unborn individuals whose involvement in 2I remains largely unaccounted for.

* Israfel counts as two.

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 09:33 PM

Let me interject really quickly with something:

Reichu wrote:According to this premise that the medium function and the stigmata are connected, EVA-01's planned role (in Seele's eyes) was supplanted by Lilith -- in, I believe you've suggested, this manner:

Given such a premise, could it be the same purpose that Lilith was always seen with nails through her hands? To allow them to open for the purposes of instrumentality (the stigmata)? Forgive me if this was already stated (or implied), had very little time to lurk forums over this last month.

BTW, an awesome exposition.

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 09:55 PM

I REALLY don't see a black core anywhere personally. I doesn't seem relevant enough for it to mean anything either.

Reichu wrote:

I'd have thought it would have a dark spot/shadow especially considering that a part of the core is indeed inside EVA-01. And it seems to be "moving towards the lance" because of the way the core is opening a closing, effecting its shadow.



Here, the core may very well be just a normal core, but because of the lighting (and the fact that Adam is just a big massive light source) it makes all of her features appear darker. Plus, it gives a really good visual effect making her look brighter than she really is.

And we need to photoshop some headphones onto her head in this picture.

Originally posted on: 08.02.2006, 03:20 AM

Which angel did Yui obtain the S2 engine from? I can't remember... maybe... I don't know...

Originally posted on: 08.02.2006, 06:23 AM

TS-Scorpio wrote:I REALLY don't see a black core anywhere personally.

"Black core" is an informal way to refer to it. I'm more or less suggesting that this unusual "dark roundness" associated with Yui's core is not something that's normally there, but has temporarily manifested itself under the current bizarre circumstances. The glow of her core going out may mark its "arrival".

In Adam's case, that the core would not be glowing along with the rest of her (save the eyes) seems rather counterintuitive, considering that this sphere is bioluminescent by its very nature. If it's dark to set it off from the rest of the body, then they've made some rather strange choices about the size/shape (see earlier).

EVA-01's unusual core seems to be dismissed quite easily -- but I really do think that this is potentially rather important and wasn't included for no reason. That the "red to red-violet gradation" is noted at the storyboard stage -- which is extraordinarily scrimpy on details -- is another alert that this is something "special".

And we need to photoshop some headphones onto her head in this picture.

Slowed it down a little.

Tidusauron wrote:Which angel did Yui obtain the S2 engine from?

Zeruel (the one with toilet paper for arms).

Originally posted on: 08.02.2006, 06:48 AM

(Please forgive me, I couldn't resist... I'll see about adding in the headphones later )

Originally posted on: 08.02.2006, 09:57 AM

TS-Scorpio wrote:I REALLY don't see a black core anywhere personally.

Nor I; in motion, it looks more like blackness at the back of the core, seeing through the red transparency into an unlit void beyond; a hole into which the core is fitted as if into a shallow socket.

Originally posted on: 08.02.2006, 10:14 AM

Reichu wrote:...doesn't anything else here strike you as being a bit... odd?



Nya?!?



"You've been hiding something in those all along, Kaworu-kun?"

I really don't think that can be taken as evidence of Adam/Kaworu being female (a fan theory that, apart from Dr. Katsuragi's connection to Kaworu, I've always had a huge problem with).

Also, here are some citations regarding my earlier post on the Chamber of Guf and it's alternate things. Since this leads to this, and the latter has a link for "Hall of Souls" that leads back to this, I've come to this conclusion:

Well of Souls = Hall of Souls = Chamber of Guf

Originally posted on: 08.02.2006, 11:16 AM

Blader5489 wrote:I really don't think that can be taken as evidence of Adam/Kaworu being female (a fan theory that, apart from Dr. Katsuragi's connection to Kaworu, I've always had a huge problem with).

What gave you the impression that I was advocating f-K here? If the purpose of the animated GIF slipped past you, look at the file name. (I thought it was something that would speak for itself...)

@Others: I did not literally mean that a black core is inside the main one. The term was being used loosely to refer to a theoretical condition where something round and dark manifests within that is visible from outside.

Originally posted on: 08.02.2006, 01:12 PM

Reichu wrote: What gave you the impression that I was advocating f-K here? If the purpose of the animated GIF slipped past you, look at the file name. (I thought it was something that would speak for itself...)

My bad. *sweat drop*

Back on-topic, Reichu are you suggesting that the 'black core' is supposed to represent the Chamber of Guf?
Also (whether or not black core = Guf), could the Black Moon be considered Lilith's 'black core'?

One more thing to add: in regards to the black eyes that Adam and Lilith share, I thought I should point out that Yui has black eyes as well (after being stigmatized and lifted into the air).

Originally posted on: 08.02.2006, 05:02 PM

Blader5489 wrote:Back on-topic, Reichu are you suggesting that the 'black core' is supposed to represent the Chamber of Guf?

DING-DING-DING!!!

Also (whether or not black core = Guf), could the Black Moon be considered Lilith's 'black core'?

I'll have to get back to you on that one, but I leave you free to play.

One more thing to add: in regards to the black eyes that Adam and Lilith share, I thought I should point out that Yui has black eyes as well (after being stigmatized and lifted into the air).

If you're referring to the "eyes going out", that's nothing unusual; the motif of the stylized eye slits "turning on" and "off" is present throughout the show.

I personally thought of the "black eyes" as Adam and Lilith's answer to the Evas' swollen, glowing-white eyeballs: "intense mode". In the same vein ('inversion'), the Seeds are associated with extreme paleness, while the Evas are a bunch of darkies.

EDIT:

Also, here are some citations regarding my earlier post on the Chamber of Guf and it's alternate things. Since this leads to this, and the latter has a link for "Hall of Souls" that leads back to this, I've come to this conclusion:

Well of Souls = Hall of Souls = Chamber of Guf

My own inclination would be to dig deeper than Wikipedia -- it's not a very good thing to draw conclusions from. Investigating yorishiro more thoroughly could provide some interesting results, as well. (There are some Japanese Google sweeps I want to make, too...)

Originally posted on: 08.02.2006, 05:19 PM

Blader wrote:Also (whether or not black core = Guf), could the Black Moon be considered Lilith's 'black core'?

If so, what would that make the White Moon?

Originally posted on: 08.02.2006, 05:57 PM

kaos wrote:If so, what would that make the White Moon?

Isn't this a trick question?

Originally posted on: 08.02.2006, 06:14 PM

Reichu wrote:Isn't this a trick question?

I didn't intend it to be... Or maybe I did??? Either way, this was basically what I had in mind:

KAMI: ........ GUF:
Eva-01 ...... Black Core
Lilith ......... Black Moon
Adam ........ Black Core
???? .......... White Moon

Originally posted on: 08.03.2006, 06:21 AM

Blader's Sig wrote:Reichu: ML members... they believe too much in their own ideas.
Aaron: Self-flattery?
Reichu: They are too obsessive... That type will never be able to accurately understand reality.
Aaron: Yet people like that seek the truth... How ironic.
Reichu: They are not so noble... Discovery is joy, and understanding leads to domination. All they seek after is their own aggrandizement.

Totally off-topic, but I just noticed this... Buh?

On-topic, I'm not quite sure how to address your question, kaos, since the Black Moon is still something I'm full of questions about. Sticking to the basics of the Guf and the Moons, on their own, first seems more approachable.

There is that cryptic stuff that Ritsuko mentions about the Chamber of Guf in #23.
The Evas do not intrinsically have souls, but human souls reside within them.
They were all salvaged.
The only vessel that contained a soul was Rei.
She was the only one born with a soul.
The Chamber of Guf had been emptied.
The Rei-like things here have no souls.
They're just vessels.I'm not sure how Ritsuko makes the jump from Rei clones to Adam to Evas to Rei and finally back to Rei clones. (In the full rant.) But one idea I had about the Rei part is that the Chamber of Guf is dependent upon Lilith's soul, and it being present within its rightful body. If my idea about the 'black core' being the Guf manifesting itself is on track, that might mean that the Guf is, in a sense, metabiologically attached to a "curatress", which is why it's manifesting in Adam and Yui's cores -- that's where their souls are.

I've speculated that, at 2I, Adam's Doors open to release souls for her children (unhatched eggs lying around somewhere, close by?), thus "awakening them" and allowing their hatchings 15 years later. The darkness associated with her core is then a sign of an "active Guf", at a time that souls in her care are finally put to use. (It's impossible to say how long the Guf actively manifests, tho.)

Why the hands would be in-doors and out-doors for some dark quantum pocket-space (I actually proposed this a little while back without explaining the idea; don't feel like reposting it ATM) in the core is a little odd. For whatever reason, I'm reminded of the way that the hands are used as focal points for certain kinds of ATF Magic. For example, when Yui pulls Sachiel's field apart like curtains, and Zero does similarly with Sahaquiel; Yui "throws" her ATF at Zeruel and slices through his arms, his barrier, and then rips up his body; and Kyoko "catching" the VTOLs in a cast of her ATF and them exploding. Of course, the ATF itself originates from the soul, which is inside the core. Could it be something similar with the Guf and its "Doors"?

Originally posted on: 08.04.2006, 05:08 PM

As for why Yui's Guf is manifesting (according to speculation, mind) when Adam pulls her hands out of her "pockets" and reaches for her, to be "returned" to the ToL right after... Well, I was hoping that I'd set enough items on the table earlier for ya'll to arrive at the possible implications.

Lilith... The Chamber of Guf emptying... Well, the original CoG and what Judaic lore says about the origin of souls might have some relevance, since NGE does enjoy playing around with the ideas. Some excerpts from Tree of Souls (a ~500-page book that's basically a massive collection of this stuff, with references up the wazoo; so much fun).
TREE OF SOULS

God has a tree of flowering souls in Paradise. ... From this tree blossom forth all souls... And from the roots of this tree sprout the souls of all the righteous ones whose names are inscribed there. When the souls grow ripe, they descend into the Treasury of Souls, where they are stored until they are called upon to be born. From this we learn that all souls are the fruit of the Holy One, blessed be He.

This Tree of Souls produces all the souls that have ever existed, or will ever exist. And when the last soul descends, the world as we know it will come to an end.

Comments: Rabbinic and kabbalistic texts speculate that the origin of souls is somewhere in heaven. This myth provides the heavenly origin of souls, and in itself fuses many traditions. First, it develops themes based on the biblical account of the Garden of Eden. It also builds on the tradition that just as there is an earthly Garden of Eden, so is there a heavenly one... Just as there is a Tree of Life in the earthly garden, so there is a Tree of Life in the heavenly one.

As for the Tree of Life in Paradise, its blossoms are souls. It produces new souls, which ripen, and then fall from the tree into the Guf, the Treasury of Souls in Paradise. ...

The core text of this myth comes from Ha-Nefesh ha-Hakhamah by Moshe de Leon... It is possible that de Leon symbolically identified the Tree of Souls with the kabbalistic "tree" of the ten sefirot. Tikkunei Zohar also speaks of the ten sefirot blossoming and flying forth souls.

Originally posted on: 08.04.2006, 05:27 PM