The Nature of Rei. Again.

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The Eva Monkey [ANF]
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Postby The Eva Monkey [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:24 pm

Reichu wrote:I personally suspect we all just need to be more patient and less hostile. We're talking about a friggin' cartoon, after all.


Finally!!!

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 23:07 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:24 pm

Knives wrote:You do care Image



Well... I do have ulterior motives. It's easier to dig up old threads when the discussion within actually pertains to the original subject. Obviously, this rarely ever happens... (That's the advantage that mailing lists have; you just change the subject as soon as it goes off-topic, and, BANG, new 'thread'.)

And it's because of this that I want to make sure the argument is cohesive, defended and clear, rather than arguing point by point in post and counter-post.



I suppose that would be advantageous. Just don't deliberate the way that Shin-seiki does. I think the one-year anniversary of his Ritsuko thread is coming up, and he's been promising a follow-up this entire time. Image

seeing as it's been in the forefront of a lot of discussion lately.



And it's all your fault!

TheEvaMonkey wrote:Finally!!!



Don't get hypocritical, now. You obviously consider NGE to be a bit more than a mere 'cartoon'.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 23:36 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:24 pm

Reichu wrote:And it's all your fault!


Hey, I didn't bring it up this time. I was content to waiting until I got around to writing the Defense when GoldArmy started talking about it.

I only came to his defense because people were basically calling him stupid for believing anything other than "Rei=Lilith".

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 23:48 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:24 pm

knives wrote:[New problem]:
A.) "Rei is Lilith because Rei is Lilith" is circular.



Could you give us some examples where anyone says this?

Shin-seiki wrote:Your sneering reference to this concept indicates nothing so much as a certain obstinate cluelessness on your part. With the very first instance that we see Rei in the series (her enigmatic appearance/disappearance in the street in #01), Anno is establishing that Rei's existence is paradoxical (that is to say, her existence is manifested in ways that do not conform to the normal constraints of time and space).



Knives wrote:It's less paradoxical (this particular scene) if you're in the camp that this image of Rei is of the "Rei" during 3I (that is to say that the "Rei" of that moment can transcend time and space).



Actually, most of us here do believe that that is Rei III after she gains god-like powers. I'm not sure, however, what you mean by, "that moment". Are you saying that she only had those powers temporarily? I think it's more likely she had them permanently from that moment onward.
Shin-seiki wrote:When the next WTF paradox involving Rei is presented (#14, in which we discover that Rei exists both as herself (Rei II), and an other self within Unit 00 (which is identified in the script for #25 as Rei I)



Knives wrote:Actually ... this is the case (though in different degrees) for all the characters [a la "There is the Shinji in the mind of Misato, the Shinji in the mind of blah blah blah, and the Shinji in the mind of Shinji himself"] (I'm being very rough in that quote because (a) I'm really not in the mood to look it up and (b) it's going to be used in my defense of Rei later anywayz).
So it's hardly a paradox as you claim it to be (especially if you take the position that I do, which is that each Rei holds an individual soul).



I don't get the connection here. Are you saying that the Rei in Unit-00 is different from the other Reis only in that she is someone else's idea of Rei?

Shin-seiki wrote:, Anno replays the 'Rei in the street' scene to remind us of her multiplex existence. Of course, in EoE, we get scads of Reis all over the place.
When I see something going on in NGE, my first instinct is to accept what I'm seeing, and go on from there. I seek to explain NGE, not explain it away. There is plentiful evidence that Rei is, in fact, existing in more than one place at a time thru most of the story, so your treating the idea as risible seems to reflect a stubborn refusal to face the facts as presented in the series...



Knives wrote:Again .. I'm not disagreeing with this idea of this particular form of Rei appearing in multiple places at once.
I'm disagreeing that a single soul may be in multiple places at once in a given moment of time.


Isn't this a distinction without a difference?
In the case of the Rei which we are speaking of (Rei 3I [o.O a fourth Rei to add to the fray]) time and space are not a factor, and so she can be anywhere and every where at "once" (this is sort of how many Christians view God for instance, as being outside of time [Christ's sacrifice for instance, while taking place in time, transcends it]).



She's everywhere at once, but her soul isn't? If she isn't Lilith, why does she have god-like powers?

Reichu wrote:(C) A "piece" of Lilith's soul remained in her. [Uhh... I think only Wayne buys this one.]


And if your, "soul neccessary for regeneration theory is correct, I can't be right. However, though it probably hasn't occured to him, Shin-Seiki's, "falling to pieces", theory supports me. (Apparently he has hit a dead end and can't decide what his observation means, so probably he won't post this. So maybe I'll get Scott to let me tell you what he told me.)

Mr. Tines wrote:E) or perhaps (C') Most of Lilth's soul remained, and the Ayanami series only had a human-sized portion enough for such a motile unit (and possibly another measure in 00).


So you think that souls in EVA take up space?

F (restated) Rei is only Lilith's flesh, but has been given form and animation with some recovered part of Yui (of course this doesn't answer "who's in 00", but does explain the reunion scene).



Flesh isn't sentient. It was Rei, not her flesh, that said, "I'm home".

Magami No ER wrote:Wasn't there something posted here awhile ago about a Kabalistic belief that some of the soul remains in the body after it is dead? I'm just curious? If this is true then maybe they somehow used parts of the soul(somehow)for each the Reis.



knives wrote:I refuted this awhile ago (using the same document that was used as defense of the theory), but it was subsequently ignored (as per usual [playful sarcasm disclaimer]). I'll find it later (gotta go to class).



You refuted it by badly overplaying a disclaimer that stated that this was a lay sight, and you should consult you Rabbi for more guidance. This does not = "Our sight sucks, don't believe it." When you watch a drug commercial that says you should consult your doctor before using their product, do you interpret that as meaning, "Don't take our product, it sucks!"? The article listed references for its assertions, and seemed quite valid. If you insist, I would be glad to dig up some sites with supporting info. You furthermore listed one idea on that site that stated that the piece of the soul that remains in the body stays only one year as undermining my theory, "Everyone would turn into LCL after one year.", ignoring the alternate notion stated earlier in the article that part of the soul remains in the body until the end time, awaiting resurrection.

Mr. Tines wrote:soul is a shorthand for "the software that makes up a person".



Upon what in the show is this based?
knives wrote:[Other things while I'm thinking .... my theory holds that Rei (and Kaworu) while not containing the same soul as Lilith (and Adam) do have facets of their power



It is explicitly stated the Kaworu has Adam's soul.

Knives and Mr. Tines: Aren't you using the straw man argument here, stating the Rei=Lilth case in the weakest possible fashion? The preponderance of evidence is against you, and it just doesn't work to explain it all away piecemeal. You sound like lawyers with a patently guilty client trying to explain away the mounds of evidence against them. Even if you succeed in refuting one or two clues, the evidence is still vastly in favor of Rei=Lilith. (For my money, "I'm home." Welcome home.", clinches it.)

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 00:39 GMT

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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:24 pm

Wait, so the most popular theory in AN(Rei=Lilith) claims that Lilith's soul was extracted to be given to Rei???

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 00:42 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:24 pm

Gaizokubanou wrote:Wait, so the most popular theory in AN(Rei=Lilith) claims that Lilith's soul was extracted to be given to Rei???


... I know I'm generally the sarcastic one, but is this sarcasm or did you not realize this was the popular belief?

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 00:48 GMT

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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:24 pm

that wasn't sarcastic, I just never really bothered looking into Rei so this whole thing is new to me Image

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 00:50 GMT

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Postby Goldarmy [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:25 pm

Okay one reply at a time.

MDWigs wrote:"Tadaimai" ("I'm back")
"Okaerinasai" ("Welcome home")



With all movies and novels I have seen or read that depicts soul's returnto body, I find the soulless body saying "Welcome Back" unbelievable.

MDWigs wrote:Statements made when Rei merges with Lilith's body in EoE.



You miss a palm sized detail. Rei doesn't merge with Lilith in EoE.

Adam and Rei merge with Lilith in EoE.

Am I the only one that ponder upon the reunion scene of Adam and Lilith containing a dialogue that usually passes between Mr. A and Mrs. A in Japan when he returns home?

MDWigs wrote:Not to mention the fact that the EoE Theatrical Program states that all the Rei's have the same soul and links that soul to Lilith.



I prefer to take what happened in series and movie as canon, not a pamphlet saying "Look guys, you probably won't be able to figure it out while you watch the movie, Rei's soul is of Lilith".

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 00:55 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:25 pm

Wayne, I didn't see any problems with Knives' rebuttal of the 'soul severibility' theory, to be found here. In that case, he wasn't disproving it with disclaimers; he was using the principles advocated on that site to show why the assumption that Anno was using those ideas doesn't work.

If we want to push the Kaworu-Rei parallels farther, since Adam's soul became exclusive to Kaworu, it could be considered that Lilith's soul is exclusive to Rei (whichever one is up and about at the time, anyway). EVA-00 is, again, another matter...

Gaizokubanou wrote:Wait, so the most popular theory in AN(Rei=Lilith) claims that Lilith's soul was extracted to be given to Rei???



Here's how I see it:

In 2005 (hey, that's next year!), the operation to salvage Yui back into her original body fails. Once this sinks in (later in 2005), Gendo figures that he can "be with Yui again" if he can find a way to control the Human Instrumentality Project. As Lilith is, for Seele, the cornerstone of the project, Gendo decides to puppet Lilith herself by putting her into a form he can exert influence over, by salvaging Lilith's soul into a human body. (All without Seele's knowledge, of course.] For the vessel, who else should he chose but his beloved Yui -- he makes clones (albeit with messed-up pigmentation), and lots of them [I guess because he was really devious and thinking ahead about how useful they would be... Image ]. Lilith's soul is salvaged into one, and, deep underground in the Third Annex of the Artificial Evolution Research Lab, Rei 1 is "born".

Not that the above represents any kind of popular opinion. We seem to disagree on a lot of the little details.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 01:01 GMT

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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:25 pm

But Rei is 14 years old and it seems to me that the clones couldn't be created as grown up(or with some age)... otherwise he could have made a full adult clone for... you know... Young children are surely more suseptable to influence, but why make her 4 years old at the start if that's true?

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 01:09 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:25 pm

Goldarmy wrote:Am I the only one that ponder upon the reunion scene of Adam and Lilith containing a dialogue that usually passes between Mr. A and Mrs. A in Japan when he returns home?



Bu why would Liliths body be a home to Adam?

Gaizokubanou wrote:But Rei is 14 years old and it seems to me that the clones couldn't be created as grown up(or with some age)... otherwise he could have made a full adult clone for... you know...



He had the Akagi's for that. Image

Gaizokubanou wrote:Young children are surely more suseptable to influence, but why make her 4 years old at the start if that's true?



He probably wanted to keep in line with the ages of the other pilots. It would be odd if all of the other pilots were 14 and Rei was an adult.

In the series Ritsuko says they need 14 year old children to be the pilots. But the idea that age has anything to do with the mother child connection always seemed odd to me (And others as well I'm sure), and might have just been an attempt by Anno to throw the audience off. Or perhaps by that early in the show he wasn't quite sure about it himself either.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 01:16 GMT

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:25 pm

tv33 wrote:In the series Ritsuko says they need 14 year old children to be the pilots. But the idea that age has anything to do with the mother child connection always seemed odd to me (And others as well I'm sure), and might have just been an attempt by Anno to throw the audience off. Or perhaps by that early in the show he wasn't quite sure about it himself either.



It has to be something with Third Impact. The fact that they are all 14 and third impact happened 15 years ago can't be just because Anno felt like it, especially since he went to the trouble of pointed it out. We know that Shinji had to be born very near the date of Third Impact, because Gendo returns home to tell Yui that third impact had happened when she was pregnent.

Add that to the fact that Misato made it a point to say that Kaworu was born ON THE DAY of third impact.

But the number 14 could also mean something. We know that Misato was 14 when third Impact happened. This could mean something deeper, or it was set up so that Misato would feel closer to Shinji. (the latter is most likely correct)

Going into a different direction we know that all the students in Shinji's class are potential pilots, they are all 14. But we don't know if they all have lost thier mother. We know that Toge and Kensuke have, and perhaps The class Rep (brain fart) since she makes lunch for her and her sister could be a hint that she has no mother.

But 14 is a big number. 14 is the age between childhood and adulthood where you are starting to take on more of an adult attitude and yet still act like a child. We can see a lot of this in Kensuke and Toge. Kensuke is very serious when it comes to millitary things, he is a hacker and wants to become a warrior as an Evangelion pilot. Yet he still plays war in the fields. Shinji is so serious he doesn't understand at first. Toge acts very childish and lazy, and yet with his sister he has taken up a degree of responcbility. With this reason using 14 years old adds this extra sence of drama to Evangelion.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 01:45 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:25 pm

... I've said it before, and I say it again at the end of this post — but it would be helpful if people would wait until the Defense of Rei is clearly laid out, rather than have me answer scattered questions in regards to this issue [which as Wayne points out {and I later address} makes for a poor defense — one which is not being thrust forward by me, but by the never-ending questions {I may just soon ignore them ... which is still a catch-22 ... either I answer and seem to make no sense (a la Reichu's frustration of my comments) or I'm said to be unable to defend myself or my theory ... whatever}].

[1](because "I" makes it Italics)
thewayneiac wrote:Could you give us some examples where anyone says this?


I pointed it out elsewhere, but using the principle of "Rei=Lilith" to explain why Lilith can have her soul and Rei can have Lilith's soul.
(1) If Rei is Lilith and Lilith is Lilith, how can this be?
(2) It must be because Lilith's soul can be in multiple places at once.
(3) Why do we know this? Refer to point (1).
[Although, I will point out, this particular matter is in regards to the "single soul, multiple locations" theory — which relies on either the assumption or conclusion that Rei and Lilith must necessarily be one in the same]

[II]
thewayneiac wrote:Actually, most of us here do believe that that is Rei III after she gains god-like powers. I'm not sure, however, what you mean by, "that moment". Are you saying that she only had those powers temporarily? I think it's more likely she had them permanently from that moment onward.


Rei III, after she gains god-like powers. Different, therefore from Rei III. And no. I didn't say "temporarily," did I? I believe I said "transcend time and space" making her essentially "eternal" though even that's not the right word for it (it's beyond "eternal" ... it's existing outside the bounds of time and space).

[III]
thewayneiac wrote:I don't get the connection here. Are you saying that the Rei in Unit-00 is different from the other Reis only in that she is someone else's idea of Rei?


No ... this isn't exactly what I'm saying ... but it's something I'm planning (and have been planning) on addressing when I get around to the Defense.


[IV]
thewayneiac wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Knives Again .. I'm not disagreeing with this idea of this particular form of Rei appearing in multiple places at once.
I'm disagreeing that a single soul may be in multiple places at once in a given moment of time.

Isn't this a distinction without a difference?
No. It's not. See my response to Quote [II] and you'll understand how it's not.
My saying "this particular form of Rei appearing in multiple places at once" may be throwing you off, because in real terms, she isn't appearing in these places in any given moment of time, because (as I state in response to [II]) she (Rei 3I as I called her once) is outside of time.

[V]
thewayneiac wrote:She's everywhere at once, but her soul isn't? If she isn't Lilith, why does she have god-like powers?


Again, first question answered by response to [II].
Second question: she and Lilith are merged as one, thereby giving her god-like powers (I suppose that's the simplest way I can answer such a complex question [that's like asking "Why does God love babies?"]).

[VI]
thewayneiac wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Knives I refuted this awhile ago (using the same document that was used as defense of the theory), but it was subsequently ignored (as per usual [playful sarcasm disclaimer]). I'll find it later (gotta go to class).


You refuted it by badly overplaying a disclaimer that stated that this was a lay sight, and you should consult you Rabbi for more guidance.
Ah .. I see. It was your theory (hence the animosity in regards to the refutation I provided [using your own source I might add].
Actually, I used that defense (that defense being the disclaimer) [once] when you first brought up the issue and [a second time] on the "Angels/Cores" thread when you brought it up again.
The [second time] however, I included a further and more thorough refutation, which you seemed to have glossed over and I will point it out after the next quote (see directly below).

[VII]
thewayneiac wrote:You furthermore listed one idea on that site that stated that the piece of the soul that remains in the body stays only one year as undermining my theory, "Everyone would turn into LCL after one year.", ignoring the alternate notion stated earlier in the article that part of the soul remains in the body until the end time, awaiting resurrection.


Here is post which we are discussing: Link
I'm quoting the majority of it directly below (since this is the section you seemed to skip over completely) — but linking it in case anyone cares to see it in it's entireity (though I've excluded little).
(Unfortunately, the text under discussion no longer seems available [at least at this time — see link])

Response to "[VII]"
Knives wrote:Now ... to address the site you reference, [it] argues that two of the five parts (those pertaining in particular not to that which primarily seperates man from animal — those three being "Neshamah, Chayyah and Yehidad" — but instead to that of plants and animals) separate from the other three.
One (the Nefesh) "temporarily" remains in the body, while the other (the Ruach) is purified in Gehenna for 12 months, after which it permanently enters the "Lower Gan Eden."

The other three parts (those pertaining to the human person) all immediately leave the body for "Upper Gan Eden" upon death.

*snip [that section pertaining to the "LCL after one year" comments]*

And beyond that, it makes transfer of a soul after death impossible, because the parts of the soul that make a human "human" immediately leave the body, leaving only the Nefesh in the body, and the Ruach "floating" out in Gehenna.



[VIII]
thewayneiac wrote:It is explicitly stated the Kaworu has Adam's soul.


... Yeah ... by SEELE. And we know how trustworthy they are.
Hell, they even lied to Kaworu about why they were sending him to NERV in the first place. You can't take everything they say as Truth.
[I'm not saying this is my end all, be all defense against Kaworu=Adam, but I think it's something you should at least take into consideration].

[IX]
thewayneiac wrote:Knives and Mr. Tines: Aren't you using the straw man argument here, stating the Rei=Lilth case in the weakest possible fashion? The preponderance of evidence is against you, and it just doesn't work to explain it all away piecemeal. You sound like lawyers with a patently guilty client trying to explain away the mounds of evidence against them.


I agree. That is precisely what (I at least) sound like.
And in response, I've been saying over and over, every time I respond to these inquiries, that you'll just have to wait until I get the Defense of Rei into a coherent form.
You're the one[s] (not just you Wayne, but many people) who insist on answers to questions "now" and can't wait.
Every time I've commented on this subject, I've pointed to the fact that as it stands, it's not in a cohesive form, simply scattered defenses and refutations. And in the same token, I've stated that it'd be useless to go about them one by one.
I'm not the one arguing these one by one as you point out (that is to say the "weakest possible fashion"). If you'd prefer I ignore your questions, then that is what I shall do. But it'd be easier if you (and others [again, I don't mean "you" when I say "you" I just mean everyone]) were to simply hold questions until such time as the Defense is given fully.
People seem incapable of this however.

[X]
thewayneiac wrote:Even if you succeed in refuting one or two clues, the evidence is still vastly in favor of Rei=Lilith. (For my money, "I'm home." Welcome home.", clinches it.)


Not to sound high and mighty, but I'm not setting out to refute "one or two clues" ... I'm set on refuting all of them.
That's not to say I don't agree with many of you on the fundamental issue that there is indeed a unique connection between Rei and Lilith (and Kaworu and Adam) for that matter that is not shared by any other characters (be they Angel or Human) in the series.

Furthermore — "I'm home." "Welcome home."
Hm. *sigh* ... I'd rather wait to get into this when I start the Defense, so I'll just state my position and argument against this as evidence that they share the same soul.

>EDIT
In essence, a mini-refutation of one of the most used defenses of Rei=Lilith.
I start here since you seem to think it is so fundamental.
>End EDIT

You reference Misato and Shinji's interaction as evidence that because Lilith and Rei have this interaction, then Rei's soul must be that of Lilith.

This is faulty, because it would suggest then that Shinji's soul is that of Misato. Given that this isn't the case, this particular defense is bunk.

That's not to say, however, that Rei's "true home" is not with Lilith. Again, I do agree that there is a unique link between them. I'm just not for the idea that Rei's soul is Lilith's.

And again, this "I'm home" "Welcome home" defense doesn't work unless Shinji's soul is that of Misato's soul. Clearly it is not, therefore, all this proves is that Lilith (like Misato's home) is where Rei belongs (using the same argument - Shinji belongs with Misato, but that doesn't mean he is or is part of Misato).

This post = 10K character long

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 02:06 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:25 pm

Gundampilotspaz wrote:It has to be something with Third Impact. The fact that they are all 14 and third impact happened 15 years ago can't be just because Anno felt like it, especially since he went to the trouble of pointed it out. We know that Shinji had to be born very near the date of Third Impact, because Gendo returns home to tell Yui that third impact had happened when she was pregnent.



I believe we had a debate similar to this last time the issue was raised, but I don't think we ever got to any kind of a solution.

The question is what does 3I have to do with it? And how does that relate to the mother child connection? All the pilots were born after 3I, but I don't see anything in the series that points to that being particularly important.

Anno might have had a reason, but it is never explained to the best of my knowledge.

Gundampilotspaz wrote:It Add that to the fact that Misato made it a point to say that Kaworu was born ON THE DAY of third impact. .



Well there is the theory that his birthday is listed as such because that was the day his body was created as a result of the experiments preformed on Adam.

I haven't seen anyone pushing this theory for awhile though.

Gundampilotspaz wrote:But the number 14 could also mean something. We know that Misato was 14 when third Impact happened. This could mean something deeper, or it was set up so that Misato would feel closer to Shinji. (the latter is most likely correct) .



Probably, but that doesn't explain why they have to be 14 in terms of a necessity to pilot.

Gundampilotspaz wrote:Going into a different direction we know that all the students in Shinji's class are potential pilots, they are all 14. But we don't know if they all have lost thier mother. We know that Toge and Kensuke have, and perhaps The class Rep (brain fart) since she makes lunch for her and her sister could be a hint that she has no mother. .



Considering that they are all pilot candidates (And Misato called his class a "set up" ) I'd say its safe to assume they have all of their mothers souls on tap, so to speak.

Gundampilotspaz wrote:But 14 is a big number. 14 is the age between childhood and adulthood where you are starting to take on more of an adult attitude and yet still act like a child.



Like I said I'm sure there are cultural and character reasons why they are 14, but I don't see why it would be 100% necessary to pilot.

Edit I know Knives doesn't really want to get into an argument about this now. So I'll just say that trying to apply how any religion views the after life and the soul, and how Eva does is a bit of a mistake I think. Anno and the creators of Eva were not religious scholars; and probably did very little research into Judo-Christianity and the Kabbalah. They probably (defiantly) just picked out a few superficial ideas and symbols to add some flair, and nothing more.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 02:10 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:25 pm

What did I tell you, Knives? We're a bunch of rabid dogs straining at the ends of our chains. We just can't wait to rip you apart. A little sadistic, I know, but that's the name of the game around here. Go do your proofs, and in the meantime if anyone says that you are "unable to defend [your]self or [your] theory", you can always retort with this.

Gaizokubanou wrote:But Rei is 14 years old and it seems to me that the clones couldn't be created as grown up(or with some age)...



Rei isn't 14 years old. She was 4 or 5 when Naoko strangled her. Afterwards, the Rei bodies were presumably aged artificially.

Young children are surely more suseptable to influence, but why make her 4 years old at the start if that's true?



She presumably started life as an infant. Or a zygote, if you are one of those people...

tv33 wrote:In the series Ritsuko says they need 14 year old children to be the pilots. But the idea that age has anything to do with the mother child connection always seemed odd to me (And others as well I'm sure), and might have just been an attempt by Anno to throw the audience off. Or perhaps by that early in the show he wasn't quite sure about it himself either.



The latter is the case, I suspect. As has been mentioned before, the age 14 was specifically chosen by Anno for a reason. However, in the end, it obviously isn't a requirement, considering that Rei is neither 14 nor in utero when 2I occurred -- something that all of the "regular" pilots and candidates possibly had in common, but why this would endow one with a mystical ability to synch with an Eva is quite beyond me. At any rate, that the pilots be specifically 14 is not a requirement, as Wigs demonstrates here.

Gundampilotspaz wrote:We know that Shinji had to be born very near the date of Third Impact, because Gendo returns home to tell Yui that third impact had happened when she was pregnent.



Shinji was born on June 6, 2001. 2I was on 9/13/00.

Gendo returned home so that he wouldn't get killed! I imagine that Yui hardly needed to be informed as to what had happened.

Add that to the fact that Misato made it a point to say that Kaworu was born ON THE DAY of third impact.



No, Hyuga made it a point to tell it to her. Image

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 02:36 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:25 pm

Seeing how much controversy this buiness of Rei and her soul has caused, I have a new question.(sorry if it goes of topic),but does anything point out any information as to what the definition of a soul in Anno's world is?(which I know relates to ours closely, making this more difficult) It would really help in order to figure out how any kind of processes involing souls would be, making these discussions more fruitful. Not that they aren't entirely, but how exactly will one prove what is right in the end? Strong edvidence in NGE concerning Rei, Angels,and Eva affairs can be hard to come by and sometimes even to understand. If it was easy, then everyone who has seen the full series would know that Evas aren't robots, which for some stupid reason I found hard to believe at first. Don't know why. Image What makes this harder is that Lilith seems to have been kinda stuck in towards the end, futher causing contridictions within the series. Just wondering. I have yet to fully decide what I think makes sense to me,(since not many liked Mr. Tines's theory E), so I'll just keep on reading this until then.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 03:14 GMT

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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:26 pm

Rei isn't 14 years old. She was 4 or 5 when Naoko strangled her. Afterwards, the Rei bodies were presumably aged artificially.



Shouldn't Rei 1 also had to age artificially according to your theory, since first one was also created in 2005?

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 04:17 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:26 pm

Gaizokubanou wrote:Shouldn't Rei 1 also had to age artificially according to your theory, since first one was also created in 2005?


Well .. if you wanted a precise rate of change for the Reis, I'm sure Tines could present us with the mathematical formula ... I probably could too .. but it's 1AM and I'm exhausted.

A rough estimate could be that she ages somewhere around 10%-20% faster than normal humans ... thereby making her around the age of 14 when the series takes place (10-20 is based on nothing other than educated guessing).

But factor in the problem of how long she's been attending the Junior High or whatever it is they go to ... a length I can't recall at this time.

Anywayz ... I don't think the means really matters so much as the fact that we know she was artificially aged (this isn't under debate, is it?).

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 07:59 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:26 pm

Gaizokubanou wrote:Shouldn't Rei 1 also had to age artificially according to your theory, since first one was also created in 2005?



No. Created in 2005, aged 4 or 5 in 2010 (when she was killed).

Knives wrote:But factor in the problem of how long she's been attending the Junior High or whatever it is they go to ... a length I can't recall at this time.



Links for "Timing of Rei 2": 1, 2, and 3.

Anywayz ... I don't think the means really matters so much as the fact that we know she was artificially aged (this isn't under debate, is it?).



I certainly hope not. They obviously have the ability to accelerate the development of organic entities, as I pointed out here.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 13:24 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:26 pm

Magami No ER wrote:Seeing how much controversy this buiness of Rei and her soul has caused, I have a new question.(sorry if it goes of topic),but does anything point out any information as to what the definition of a soul in Anno's world is?(which I know relates to ours closely, making this more difficult)



They're never defined, only depicted. Little red dots (or "particles", according to the script).

If it was easy, then everyone who has seen the full series would know that Evas aren't robots, which for some stupid reason I found hard to believe at first.



Speaking for myself, I thought it was obvious the Evas weren't "robots" by the end of episode #02. Granted, I didn't know what the hell they were instead -- that's one of the things that kept me watching. Image

What makes this harder is that Lilith seems to have been kinda stuck in towards the end, futher causing contridictions within the series.



Tell me about it. It would be nice if they made a Renewal Mark 2 where all of these obnoxious plot holes were patched up. More of them surround Rei than anything else in the series, from what I've been able to tell.

(since not many liked Mr. Tines's theory



Well, I explained why. Image In general, connecting Rei to Yui in anything other than body has many flaws; see the body of evidence I produced earlier. They do make that strange connection between the two in #16, by having them both say "Sou. Yokatta wa ne", but I was never sure what that was supposed to mean.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 15:28 GMT


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