Reichu wrote:GoldArmy, read this thread. All of it. Please. And if I remember any of the various other threads where we had to deal with previous incredulous "Nuh-uh! Rei doesn't have Lilith's soul!!!" folks, I'll throw those at you, too. The topic is too obnoxious to have to start over every time we get a disbeliever.

Reichu I am sorry to say this but that thread was a complete waste of time. I don't need to read explaination of series using Rei=Lillith theorem taken as universal law. I need to see the scenes that prove Rei's soul is of Lillith. Also please direct me to the necessary posts so that I don't have to wallow through irrevelant words.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 22:58 GMT

Goldarmy wrote:I need to see the scenes that prove Rei's soul is of Lillith. .

You are not going to find it. They never say flat out in the series that "Rei has the soul of Lilith". They do however give us a series of clues so that we might piece things together for ourselves.

It's like being unable to convict someone of murder because there isn't a high-definition color video showing the crime. But there is however a bloody knife on the suspect with the victims blood. This isn't proof, just evidence that leads us to the reasonable conclusion that he did it.

Goldarmy wrote:Also please direct me to the necessary posts so that I don't have to wallow through irrevelant words.

Irrelevant....words?

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 23:11 GMT

Goldarmy wrote:Reichu I am sorry to say this but that thread was a complete waste of time. I don't need to read explaination of series using Rei=Lillith theorem taken as universal law. I need to see the scenes that prove Rei's soul is of Lillith. Also please direct me to the necessary posts so that I don't have to wallow through irrevelant words.

While I believe Goldarmy is less tactful (I was once too [wait ... I still am]), I agree with him on this to some extent.

Much of the Rei=Lilith theory is circular logic.
Much of its defense rests on some universal, assumed principle that Rei=Lilith.
So one therefore proves Rei=Lilith by sheer fact of the principle that Rei=Lilith without a proper defense of such an argument.

For instance (this is one of the biggest fallacies in the argument [philosophy enters the argument, and this {in other posts} is my point about philosophy — like science, you can't just throw it out to meet your whims]):
Rei 01 is in EVA-00
Rei 02 is the pilot of EVA-00
Theory: Rei (all three) have the soul of Lilith
Problem: How can this be when it's in EVA-00 and Rei 02 (and Lilith as well if you consider the "Welcome Home" dialogue).
Answer: Oh ... well it's because Rei is Lilith and Lilith can be in multiple places at once.

[New problem]:
A.) "Rei is Lilith because Rei is Lilith" is circular.
B.) Assumption that a soul can be in multiple places at the same time (not defended — [and no, "We know souls can be in multiple places at once because Lilith's soul is in both Rei 02 and EVA-00" is not a valid defense — that's the same circular logic as what is present in "A"]).

So.

In short, yes I agree with you Gold Army. But until there's a solid, cohesive defense stated as to the defense of Rei (my intention eventually), they'll continue to hold this as an evident and universal principle, despite the backwards logic which leads them to it.

(no offense guys )

>EDIT
And again ... this is a topic for a whole other discussion _
>End EDIT

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 00:12 GMT

Knives wrote:Answer: Oh ... well it's because Rei is Lilith and Lilith can be in multiple places at once.

Your sneering reference to this concept indicates nothing so much as a certain obstinate cluelessness on your part. With the very first instance that we see Rei in the series (her enigmatic appearance/disappearance in the street in #01), Anno is establishing that Rei's existence is paradoxical (that is to say, her existence is manifested in ways that do not conform to the normal constraints of time and space). When the next WTF paradox involving Rei is presented (#14, in which we discover that Rei exists both as herself (Rei II), and an other self within Unit 00 (who is identified in the script for #25 as Rei I), Anno replays the 'Rei in the street' scene to remind us of her multiplex existence. Of course, in EoE, we get scads of Reis all over the place.
When I see something going on in NGE, my first instinct is to accept what I'm seeing, and go on from there. I believe that one should seek to explain NGE, not explain it away. There is plentiful evidence that Rei is, in fact, existing in more than one place at a time thru most of the story, so your treating the idea as risible seems to reflect a stubborn refusal to face the facts as presented in the series...

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 00:43 GMT

Shin-seiki wrote:Your sneering reference to this concept indicates nothing so much as a certain obstinate cluelessness on your part. With the very first instance that we see Rei in the series (her enigmatic appearance/disappearance in the street in #01), Anno is establishing that Rei's existence is paradoxical (that is to say, her existence is manifested in ways that do not conform to the normal constraints of time and space).

It's less paradoxical (this particular scene) if you're in the camp that this image of Rei is of the "Rei" during 3I (that is to say that the "Rei" of that moment can transcend time and space).

Shin-seiki wrote:When the next WTF paradox involving Rei is presented (#14, in which we discover that Rei exists both as herself (Rei II), and an other self within Unit 00 (which is identified in the script for #25 as Rei I)

Actually ... this is the case (though in different degrees) for all the characters [a la "There is the Shinji in the mind of Misato, the Shinji in the mind of blah blah blah, and the Shinji in the mind of Shinji himself"] (I'm being very rough in that quote because (a) I'm really not in the mood to look it up and (b) it's going to be used in my defense of Rei later anywayz).
So it's hardly a paradox as you claim it to be (especially if you take the position that I do, which is that each Rei holds an individual soul).

Shin-seiki wrote:Of course, in EoE, we get scads of Reis all over the place.
When I see something going on in NGE, my first instinct is to accept what I'm seeing, and go on from there. I seek to explain NGE, not explain it away. There is plentiful evidence that Rei is, in fact, existing in more than one place at a time thru most of the story, so your treating the idea as risible seems to reflect a stubborn refusal to face the facts as presented in the series...

Again .. I'm not disagreeing with this idea of this particular form of Rei appearing in multiple places at once.
I'm disagreeing that a single soul may be in multiple places at once in a given moment of time.
In the case of the Rei which we are speaking of (Rei 3I [o.O a fourth Rei to add to the fray]) time and space are not a factor, and so she can be anywhere and every where at "once" (this is sort of how many Christians view God for instance, as being outside of time [Christ's sacrifice for instance, while taking place in time, transcends it]).

>EDIT
And yet, again we are completely off topic. How does this happen?
>End EDIT

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 01:36 GMT

"Tadaimai" ("I'm back")
"Okaerinasai" ("Welcome home")

Statements made when Rei merges with Lilith's body in EoE.

That seems fairly straight forward to me. Not to mention the fact that the EoE Theatrical Program states that all the Rei's have the same soul and links that soul to Lilith.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 09:24 GMT

MDWigs wrote:"Tadaimai" ("I'm back")
"Okaerinasai" ("Welcome home")

Statements made when Rei merges with Lilith's body in EoE.

That seems fairly straight forward to me. Not to mention the fact that the EoE Theatrical Program states that all the Rei's have the same soul and links that soul to Lilith.

Wigs, you might elaborate on how those words have a cultural connotation in Japanese that doesn't readily translate into English; the idea is that Rei has been away, but now she's back where she belongs.

I should also mention that the use of the telop for "Okaerinasai" by no means necessarily indicates that there was some other entity welcoming Rei home; it is simply a cinematic device that Anno is utilizing here to make it clear to the audience that Rei is returning to her "true" self. A Japanese audience would tend to 'get' that idea more readily than an English speaking one, again because "I'm back" and "Welcome home" just don't quite convey the nuance that the words have in Japanese.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 10:31 GMT

Plus it's a repetition of what Shinji says when he gets to Misato's house.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 10:54 GMT

Bow before Sharp-kun's modly powers! This thread was obviously waiting to happen -- again -- so... let the games begin! :maniacal laughter:

Goldarmy wrote:Reichu I am sorry to say this but that thread was a complete waste of time. I don't need to read explaination of series using Rei=Lillith theorem taken as universal law. I need to see the scenes that prove Rei's soul is of Lillith. Also please direct me to the necessary posts so that I don't have to wallow through irrevelant words.

Well... okay. That thread was probably a bad choice. But you have to admit, it was worth it for the "Eva-themed wedding" stuff at the end.

Generally, I tend to find that it's difficult to ignore this dialogue from episode #24':

Kaoru : So you're the First Children?

Kaoru : Ayanami Rei.

Kaoru : You're the same as me.

Kaoru : We've both taken the Lilim's form as our body to live on this
planet.

Rei : Who are you?

But, heck, Kaworu's obviously babbling nonsense, just like Seele is in THIS commonly-dismissed scene:

Seele : But our hopes are materializing...

Seele : In Lilith, progenitor of humanity - the false successors from
the Black Moon...

Seele : And in Adam, progenitor of Angels - the true successors from
the lost White Moon.

Seele : And whose salvaged soul resides only within you...

But taken together with Rei 1's words in #25:

Rei 1 (off-camera) "You are no more than a fabricated object pretending to be human"

Rei 1 "Look within yourself. Is there not a mind so shrouded in darkness you can neither see nor understand it?"

Rei 1: "That is where the true you exists"

and

Rei 1 "Even so, there is another who is the true you"

Rei 1 "It's just that you don't know her"

Rei 1 "Because you don't want to look at it, you're just avoiding something inside you that you don't understand"

Text: "Because you're afraid"

Rei 1 (off-camera) "Because she might not have a human form"

...I'm a bit bewildered that people manage to come to any conclusion BUT "Oh... That's Lilith in there, isn't it?" As Shin-seiki's been trying to get across, the premise that Lilith's soul does some strange things that you, Knives, for whatever reason aren't willing to accept hardly detracts from what the show is clearly telling us. This is Anno's show, and if he wants to do all of these weird things -- well, that's his prerogative. I don't see how throwing all sorts of logic gabbledygook at us will do anything to change that.

I also have no idea where this idea about the three Reis having unique souls comes from. They have unique minds, yes -- but it's not the same thing. Of course, I don't think you bought my ideas regarding that soul/mind matter either -- but whatever. Rei's tripartite nature seems to be another rather basic thing about her nature, and if you don't "get it", you're missing the point. Rei was created to serve as Gendo's tool for HIP:

Gendo "Now, let's go. You have existed for today, this day, Rei."

And Rei herself tells us:

Rei 3 "No, I'm overjoyed"
Rei 3 (right) "I am one who desires death"
Rei 3 (left) "All I need is despair"
Rei 3 "I want to return to nothing"
Rei 2 "But you can't"
Rei 2 "You can't return to nothing"
Rei 2 "That person won't let you return"
Rei 3 "Won't let me return and end it yet"
Rei 2 (off-camera) "I existed because that person needed me"

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, aside from referring to the fact that Rei cannot die because Gendo will simply 'resurrect' her.

Consider also Ritsuko's babble in #23:

Ritsuko : These are dummies.

Ritsuko : And nothing but parts for Rei.

and

Ritsuko : However the vessel which truly contains a soul is Rei. Only
she has a soul.

Ritsuko : None of the other vessels have a soul.

Ritsuko : There was nothing within the room of Gauf.

Ritsuko : These Rei-like things here don't have a soul.

Ritsuko : Nothing but vessels.

While I have a hard time explaining precisely why, this seems to imply that even though the vessel might change from one 'Rei-like container' to another, we are still dealing with something called "Rei". Even though she might change from one incarnation to the next, there IS some continuity; it's not as if we are dealing with three completely different people. (Indeed, episode #25 serves to highlight just how similar Rei 2 and Rei 3 really are.)

Back to the point, I don't see how any other explanation aside from Rei being Gendo's attempt to puppet and influence Lilith's soul fits. If Rei just contains three random souls of no particular consequence, how the hell does this work? Remember, Rei is an artificial being, like the Evas. She is born without a soul -- one has to be PUT there, taken from something else.

Need I mention, the imagery of the Moon does, in the end, serve as another device to connect Rei to Lilith, and does Anno -ever- play this up in EoE.

But, whatever... I suppose we are all dellusionary and somehow fail to grasp what Anno is trying to tell us with all of this. We are not worthy.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 11:46 GMT

Shin-seiki wrote:Wigs, you might elaborate on how those words have a cultural connotation in Japanese that doesn't readily translate into English; the idea is that Rei has been away, but now she's back where she belongs.

Woops, sorry about that. I was running out the door when I posted.

Those two lines are a traditional Japanese welcoming and they are only used in certain circumstances, specifically, as Shin-seiki noted, when somebody is returning home to where they belong/came from. karerimasu (to return) is very different in Japanese to ikimasu (to go). Here Rei specifically says "Tadaima", which literally means "I have returned just now" and Lilith specifically says "Okaeri nasai", "Welcome home", to her. The literal meaning aside though, it is the traditional use that is important. We see this greeting used in episode 02, when Shinji comes to Misato's apartment.

(From the Literal Translation scripts)

Shinji: Errr... May I come in? (OJAMASHIMASU)

Misato: Shinji-kun, this is your home!

Shinji: I... I'm back. (TADAIMA)

Misato: Welcome home! (OKAERINASAI)

They make a specific point of this here, and again so at the end of episode 04 too. They make a point of it to show that Shinji belongs there, that Misato's home is his home. That he isn't just a guest but a member of the household. This is why it is so important when this greeting is used between Rei and Lilith in EOE. Firstly Rei's use of Tadaima shows that she recognises where she comes from and where she belongs (otherwise she would have used ojamashimasu) and Lilith's response is a specific welcoming home. For Japanese audiences there is really only one way to interpret that welcoming, because it is something they have used all their lives to indicate a returning to a place where they belong.

Aside from this Reichu has posted numerous pieces of evidence from the series that point to Rei's nature.

I should also mention that the use of the telop for "Okaerinasai" by no means necessarily indicates that there was some other entity welcoming Rei home; it is simply a cinematic device that Anno is utilizing here to make it clear to the audience that Rei is returning to her "true" self. A Japanese audience would tend to 'get' that idea more readily than an English speaking one, again because "I'm back" and "Welcome home" just don't quite convey the nuance that the words do in Japanese.

I agree completely.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 16:07 GMT

The skeptic's answer to the "Okaerinasai" bit is, of course, that all humans came from Lilith, so it doesn't have to mean anything special that Rei says it before getting chest-sucked. I figure I'd call that one before the opposing party did (they always do), just to see what you big boys have to say in response.

With regards to telop, this is used heavily in EoTV and oftentimes CAN be assigned to a speaker. (And don't forget Asuka's "telopped" "Iya" from the video version of EoE.) In Lilith's case, there are conflicting arguments:

(A) Lilith has been there all along and no where else [Knives' camp, I imagine]
(B) Lilith's soul is both in Lilith herself and in Rei 3. [An allowance made by "quantum magic"]
(C) A "piece" of Lilith's soul remained in her. [Uhh... I think only Wayne buys this one.]
(D) Rei is just talking to herself -- there's nothing in Lilith and Anno is playing mind games with us. Er, excuse me... using the telop as a 'narrative device'.

I'm rather interested in the logic behind how we are to know when to dismiss a telop as mere 'device' and when it is merely someone's words being presented in written, rather than spoken, form for whatever reason [Asuka in #26' (video), Rei in #25].

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 19:12 GMT

Reichu wrote:In Lilith's case, there are conflicting arguments:

(A) Lilith has been there all along and no where else [Knives' camp, I imagine]
(B) Lilith's soul is both in Lilith herself and in Rei 3. [An allowance made by "quantum magic"]
(C) A "piece" of Lilith's soul remained in her. [Uhh... I think only Wayne buys this one.]
(D) Rei is just talking to herself -- there's nothing in Lilith and Anno is playing mind games with us. Er, excuse me... using the telop as a 'narrative device'.

(E) or perhaps (C') Most of Lilth's soul remained, and the Ayanami series only had a human-sized portion enough for such a motile unit (and possibly another measure in 00).

(F) my own original interpretation - Lilith's flesh with a "ditto's worth" (as per Brin's Kil'n People) of Yui to give it form and separate animation.

And there are probably more out there at varying degrees of defensibility that aren't outright bogus.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 19:29 GMT

Wasn't there something posted here awhile ago about a Kabalistic belief that some of the soul remains in the body after it is dead? I'm just curious? If this is true then maybe they somehow used parts of the soul(somehow)for each the Reis. I kinda agree with Mr. Tines on "E" theory(but I don't know what his " F" one is suspose to mean, sorry). The telop reminded me of those used in old silent movies,except this time we really don't know who's susposed to be one speaking. I thought it was an interesting way to convey a message.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 19:47 GMT

Magami No ER wrote:I kinda agree with Mr. Tines on "E" theory(but I don't know what his " F" one is suspose to mean, sorry).

On reflection, I was less than coherent.

F (restated) Rei is only Lilith's flesh, but has been given form and animation with some recovered part of Yui (of course this doesn't answer "who's in 00", but does explain the reunion scene).

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 19:56 GMT

Mr. Tines wrote:(E) or perhaps (C') Most of Lilth's soul remained, and the Ayanami series only had a human-sized portion enough for such a motile unit (and possibly another measure in 00).

I am EXTREMELY skeptical about NGE advocating the notion that a soul is somehow 'divisible'. Also, you are making it sound like a soul is somehow of greater 'quantity' the larger an entity is, but the fact that the soul of a giant entity can be fixed into the body of the much smaller one, and vice versa, seems to indicate that all entities are playing with the same deck of cards in this respect.

But that sounds like yet another topic dying to happen, so if you want to pursue that further, make a new thread.

(F) my own original interpretation - Lilith's flesh with a "ditto's worth" (as per Brin's Kil'n People) of Yui to give it form and separate animation.

Then what soul is in Rei?

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 19:57 GMT

Goddamit! Accidentally closed a window before I submitted a post.

This is from the this thread. I'm replying here because I didn't ask Sharp to make another Rei thread for nuthin!

Shin-seiki wrote:Hey Reichu, do you think there'd be any advantage in trotting out "Quantum Magic" at this point?

Considering Knives' current grievances, I doubt he'd appreciate it. No harm in running it past him, though; if nothing else, he'll just refute the entire thing, since apparently the creator of a story cannot create his own groundrules for the universe in which the story occurs and, if he does, the audience are the ones who are mistaken.* Or something like that.

But back to "quantum magic"....

While I'm not sure if it really covers the matter of what Rei 1 (or some facsimile thereof) is doing in Zero, it seems to cover a lot of other "implausibilities" nicely:







Granted, I've got my own questions about this one...

...and this one, too.



*To be perfectly honest, Knives, a lot of your arguments incite this reaction. Or possibly even this.

I personally suspect we all just need to be more patient and less hostile. We're talking about a friggin' cartoon, after all.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 08:25 GMT

Reichu wrote:Then what soul is in Rei?

In that model she is imprinted with an emulation based on Yui, and soul is a shorthand for "the software that makes up a person".

EDIT - For the record on the E(or C') idea - not so much soul proportional to body mass, as that a primal, Signifincant entity (Adam, Lilith) would in some sense have much "larger" soul than an individual human (maybe as much as the whole of the ensemble that makes up the 18th Angel).

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 08:32 GMT

Magami No ER wrote:Wasn't there something posted here awhile ago about a Kabalistic belief that some of the soul remains in the body after it is dead? I'm just curious? If this is true then maybe they somehow used parts of the soul(somehow)for each the Reis.

I refuted this awhile ago (using the same document that was used as defense of the theory), but it was subsequently ignored (as per usual [playful sarcasm disclaimer]). I'll find it later (gotta go to class).

All the other things that have been said so far, I hear you on all the points (again, I've read the old thread and understand everything you're saying).

But taken in addition to other dialogues, it can be refuted.
Shinji's dialogue with "himself" in 26 when taken in conjunction with Rei's dialogue with "herself" in 25 ... the picture painted is a little different.

[And with this point, I apologize for not being able to elaborate further, but I must attend class — furthermore, while I appreciate a new thread for this matter, I personally probably won't invest much time in it because I'd rather put forth my complete theory (which could be a couple hours to post) rather than answer bit by bit, thereby making it confusing for you and others].

[To address other points while I have time — I have not said that with Lilith is where Rei belongs; I've merely said I don't believe them to be the same person/contain the same soul — I'll address this matter and the matter of the "quote" (welcome home) at a later date]

[Other things while I'm thinking .... my theory holds that Rei (and Kaworu) while not containing the same soul as Lilith (and Adam) do have facets of their power {this is the part of my theory which has the least substantial defense at this time, since it's largely supported only in Christian theology (sort of like the Trinity) — in other words, it needs work and adjusting and clarification}]
So ignore the [ ] above, because, as I said, I have no substantial argument there yet ... asking about it and refuting it at this point would be futile.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 21:06 GMT

Knives wrote:I refuted this awhile ago (using the same document that was used as defense of the theory), but it was subsequently ignored (as per usual [playful sarcasm disclaimer]). I'll find it later (gotta go to class).

It originally appeared here.

You refuted it here. For my part, I wasn't "ignoring", I merely had nothing to say, as you had said it all already.

But taken in addition to other dialogues, it can be refuted.
Shinji's dialogue with "himself" in 26 when taken in conjunction with Rei's dialogue with "herself" in 25 ... the picture painted is a little different.

The Case of Rei Ayanami is subtly different. The participants are Rei 1, Rei 2, and Rei 3 -- the three incarnations we meet in the show. Her "case" is essentially in a vacuum, without commentary from other characters. It is merely Rei, Rei, and Rei. In many ways, it stands out from what the other characters go through.

With the more 'normal' characters, they encounter a "child" version of themselves (or themselves as they are seen by others). Considering that Freudism is referenced extensively in NGE, this seems to make some degree of sense. I might venture some wild guess (I've only taken one psychology class so far ) that this is supposed to represent the 'primitive self' of a given character. Although you grow up, what happened to you in your childhood shapes what you become and forever influences you; in that sense, the 'primitive self' never really leaves. That these characters' 'current incarnations' are communicating with the children that they are, deep down inside, does not seem like an altogether wild device for Anno to use when exposing what is at the core of these characters.

I really just made all of that up on the spot, so feel free to toy with it...
Shin-seiki probably has something to add.

Well, Knives, I nagged Sharp-kun to create this thread for you -- so it's here when you're ready. I suspect when it comes to things like this, we have the zeal of slobbering, jaw-gnashing dogs barely able to be restrained.

Mr. Tines wrote:In that model she is imprinted with an emulation based on Yui, and soul is a shorthand for "the software that makes up a person".

You seem to be suggesting that the soul in NGE has some kind of 'mechanical' nature... By all indications, it is nothing of the sort. It is a mysterious force that humanity can manipulate somewhat with technology, but that's about it. Ritsuko seems to make this rather implicit:

Ritsuko:This is the prototype dummy plug.
Rei's personality was transfered,
although the human mind and spirit are not digitalizable.
This is nothing but a fake, a copy
which imitates the pilot's thinking. It's nothing but a machine.

A related bit:

Misato: Mmmmm... Will you tell me about MAGI? Just a little?

Ritsuko: It's a long story. But not much fan. Do you know of the personality
transfer OS?

Misato: Yes. It is a system to transfer a person's personality, making a
7th generation organic computer able to think by itself. It's used
to operate EVA, too.

Ritsuko: I heard the MAGI were the first one to use it. My mother
developed it.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 21:51 GMT

Reichu wrote:Well, Knives, I nagged Sharp-kun to create this thread for you -- so it's here when you're ready.

You do care <--- [not sarcasm] Thanks !

Reichu wrote:I suspect when it comes to things like this, we have the zeal of slobbering, jaw-gnashing dogs barely able to be restrained.

And it's because of this that I want to make sure the argument is cohesive, defended and clear, rather than arguing point by point in post and counter-post.

I'll get on a proper start to the issue this week (as soon as I get my DVDs back [lent them to a friend]) ... seeing as it's been in the forefront of a lot of discussion lately.

Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 22:56 GMT