Shinji and Asuka

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Postby Ironfoot [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:27 pm

Well, this would explain the entire beach scene in EoE, if true.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 03:26 GMT

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Postby DufFuS101 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:28 pm

OMF, all I can really say that while your post is well thought out you're rather obsessive over the "platonic love" Shinji has over Asuka, considering the numerous sexual references in the series and the movie. Also lets keep in mind that the last thing the Shinji saw before went into instrumentality.

As for imperfect love, I fully agrea with you.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 03:40 GMT

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Postby Joeshie [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:28 pm

OMF wrote:I think Asuka may have desired the mythical "Undefeatable Shinji-sama", a fantasy she came to realise would never exist, which would only made her more bitter towards him. He comments are often quite revealing of her internal thoughts. Episode #16:
Asuka : I lost!
He exceeded me easily!
To be honest, he did it so easily that I feel just a bit annoyed.
Great, wonderful, strong, too strong!
Huh! Undefeatable Shinji-sama!
Now our job will be easier, right?
But, we'll have to do our best not to be just left behind.

Dispite her obvious sarcasm, there are elements of honesty in her speech here. I feel just a bit annoyed. Watch her gestures during the scene as well. Like many comments in evangelion, I think this was another "mental slip". I think on some level, she does admire and desire this mythical Undefeatable Shinji-sama, who of course exists only in the back of her own head. She desired the "Third Children", the hero, the man, with the amazing piloting skills, enough to rival her own. What she got however, was a rather dull, uninteresting boy, who to cap it all off, did not seem interested in her.



Problem number one in your reasoning: you THINK that Asuka desires an unbeatable Shinji. There is very little evidence to support such a statement and what little evidence you do give is very abstract. Trying to prove a characters feelings simply through their gestures is hard enough, but trying to prove it when their speech indicates a contrary feeling is even more difficult. In the passage, Asuka clearly indicates that she does not like the undefeatable Shinji. Whatever gestures she does use is up for interperation. So what do you think would be more reasonable to believe: that Asuka did not want an unbeatable Shinji through the obvious use of sarcasm in her voice or that Asuka does want an unbeatable Shinji simply because she used some gestures, which could in fact could have meant nothing at all? I'll stick with the sarcasm.

OMF wrote:What about Shinji? I'd argue that Shinji didn't want Asuka as a lover at all! Shinji is an arch-prude, who represses his libido. An eighty year old nun, trapped in a fourteen year old boys body, so to speak. He is quite conservative and disapproves of sex and sexual matters. However his repressed libido eventually bursts out, twice I'd argue, and both with Asuka. Once in epsiode #09, when he tries to kiss her, and again in #25' when he is overwhealmed by his pent up hormones in room 303. After both these incidents, paticularly the second, he is overcome with guilt and shame for letting his lusts overcome him, reinforcing his negative attitude towards sex.



I think this must have been my third time stating this, but Shinji DOES NOT DISAPPROVE OF SEXUAL MATTERS. You try to use the attempted kiss in episode 9 to support this when there is NO indication whatsoever that Shinji does not approve of it. He calls Asuka a child and that was it. I REPEAT, NO FEELING OF REMORSE OR DISGUST. Also, Shinji knew exactly what he was doing in that scene, so blaming the attempted kiss on his "repressed libido" is just ridiculous.

When Shinji becomes disgusted with himself after masturbating over Asuka, I would sincerely hope that he does have some feeling of disgust. I would feel disgusted with myself if I were to do that to someone I knew. But does that mean I "supress my libido" and disapprove of sexual matters? Umm, no.

OMF wrote:So what did Shinji desire from Asuka(Here it comes).
To dredge up that old Evangelion Freudian argument, Shinji's Id desires Asuka. His Superego, denys and refuses these desires, considering them inappropriate. His ego likely resolves this conflict by seeking Asuka-senpai, viewing her as a figure of respect and guidance. He wants her as a parent I think, and I go so far as to say, he wants her as a father.



What exactly is your point here? The entire purpose of the Superego is to try to repress the Id. It's the same for everyone (if you even believe in Freud's theory). Assuming we take Freud's arguement to be true, then I also contain a Superego and an Id. My Superego also denys and refuses inappropriate actions that the Id might have. EVERYONE'S Superego trys to override the the desires of Id. So trying to prove that Shinji disapproves of sexual desires simply because his Superego is trying to supress Id just doesn't work. Unless of course you firmly believe that everyone else on the planet disapproves of sexual matters the way you claim Shinji does.

OMF wrote:getting these crazy notions
Firstly, I'll say that while I feel Shinji's seeking for Asuka-senpai, in a chaste relationship, is a conscious decision, his paternal seekings towards her are subconscious! He does not think "I want papa Asuka to like me". He wakes up thinking "I want Asuka to help me".



[sarcasm]Boy, I'm sure glad you have the rare ability to look into the subconscious of a fictional character.[/sarcasm]

OMF wrote:Second, I think it's fairly reasonable to say that Shinji looks up to Asuka. In a way, she's the pilot he'd like to be. Confident, brave, headstrong. Qualities Shinji lacks. I think he's drawn to this. He seeks her support, to be like her, for her to help him be stronger. Nowhere is this more evident than in EoE, however you can see him seeking guidance from her in various places throughout the series. I think he views Asuka, at least as a senpai, a senior or superior, who he can learn from and who he respects, and as a source of courage and inspiration.



Huzzah! We agree on a point! I also believe that Shinji looks up to Asuka. He admires hers confidence, bravery, and personality simply because these are the traits he lacks. Although, I might remind you that looking up to someone does not automatically label them as a parental figure.

OMF wrote:Thirdly, I think there is subtle visual evidence for this. This is what first got me thinking along the paternally seeking Shinji lines. It stems from the tone of Asuka's rejection of him during the kitchen scenes in #26'.

Compare these two shots.
ImageImage
I think the similarity of these shots is meant to convey something. Both are staring coldly down at Shinji. Most of Shinji's encounters with Gendou follow this line. His father staring down at him, rejecting him. And here we have Asuka, again coldy staring down, rejecting him utterly. Note the trouble gone to to make this shot. I don't think it is accidental. The two are of a height, and so Shinji is bowing his head here, nessesarily so if Asuka is to stare doen at him in this way. I think Shinji's desperation for Asuka's help, had paternal connotations, and her rejection of him therefore, is a repeat of Gendou's rejection. He subconsciously desired her as a father figure.



I partially agree with you. These shots indicate thier rejection of Shinji. They are "looking down" at him in a literal and mental sense. But that is all it is, rejection. Shinji provides no indication that he sees Asuka as a father figure in these scenes.

OMF wrote:This isn't all though. Here's another "coincidence". Both are shots of Shinji's slowly grasping hand. The left shot is from episode #19, during Shinji's last face to face encounter with Gendou in Shogoki's cage. The rightmost shot is from the scenes before complementation, just before Asuka lashes that kick at Shinji, after he says "I do understand"
Image
Meaningless coincidence? Maybe. But I'm convinced these must mean something! I think they are meant to show a link between Asuka and Gendou in Shinji's mind.



Shinji's hand reflex is used numerous times throughout the show. You would need to come up with a way to link all of the hand reflex scenes before I accept this as being a link between Asuka and Gendo.

This is all I can write for now, but I will be back later to finish this up.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 16:47 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:28 pm

OMF wrote:She goes on to reject him utterly in the following moments. not because of a percieved rejection by him, but because of a very real rejection by him, of her as an object of, I suppose, feminine worship. Might be going to far here. As a woman, might be less overstating, but then again, Asuka always desired attendtion and praise.



Worship might overstate what she wants, but she clearly regards herself as a cut above the common herd, and expects deference from them. Chosen from an early age as an "elite pilot", one of a handful in the three billions on Earth would do that.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 18:36 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:28 pm

^And this is greatly personafied more in the manga, her being a special genius "test-tube baby" and all. Image But based on vol. 8 of the manga, we know that her being that has nothing to do with her being chosen, as she was picked for simply being Kyouko's daughter, and more importantly, at the same age as the anime, around 4, 5, whatever.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 19:39 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:28 pm

OMF wrote:I think, by the end of EoE, a Shinji/Asuka relationship isn't predestined. They may at best have a love/hate relationship. I don't think Shinji and Asuka ever actually loved each other. At least, they never fell in love with one another, nor were they going to.



She brought herself back right where Shinji is for a reason.

What about Shinji? I'd argue that Shinji didn't want Asuka as a lover at all! Shinji is an arch-prude, who represses his libido. An eighty year old nun, trapped in a fourteen year old boys body, so to speak. He is quite conservative and disapproves of sex and sexual matters.



As I said before, you are completely misjudging Shinji's attitude in these scenes. He is afraid of any sort of interaction with others. He sometimes even looks uncomfortable hanging out with Toji and Kensuke. He's not recoiling from Asuka out of prudishness, or because he finds her behavior offensive, but because he is frightened of starting a relationship with her.

His ego likely resolves this conflict by seeking Asuka-senpai, viewing her as a figure of respect and guidance. He wants her as a parent I think, and I go so far as to say, he wants her as a father.



The "Well done, Shinji" scene in ep. 12, and the cemetary scene in ep. 15 demonstrate that the father figure that Shinji is searching for is actually his father, not Asuka.

I think the similarity of these shots is meant to convey something. Both are staring coldly down at Shinji. Most of Shinji's encounters with Gendou follow this line. His father staring down at him, rejecting him. And here we have Asuka, again coldy staring down, rejecting him utterly. Note the trouble gone to to make this shot. I don't think it is accidental. The two are of a height, and so Shinji is bowing his head here, nessesarily so if Asuka is to stare doen at him in this way. I think Shinji's desperation for Asuka's help, had paternal connotations, and her rejection of him therefore, is a repeat of Gendou's rejection. He subconsciously desired her as a father figure.



His extreme timidity has triggered a disdainful reaction in both of them, shown by a similar look on their faces. In no way does this mean that because one is his father, the other is also his father.

Shinji is a prude, and does not approve of sex. Note his disapproval of Touji and Aide's libidinousness. And of course his disapproval, and almost anger, at Misato's sexuality

Shinji:
This is Misato? She does... this?

Misato:
Yes, this is also me... The melting into one another's hearts...
The me that Shinji doesn't know.
Reality does involve pain, but you just have to accept it.

Shinji has a very immature and negative attitude towards sex. To him it is simply taboo, not to be discussed, talked about, and as far as he is concerned, even engaged in.



It's interesting that you make an incorrect point about Asuka, but then fail to make the same point about Misato in this scene when it would be correct. Shinji actually does see Misato as a surrogate parent, and this is why seeing her in this fashion upsets him. In no way does this make him prudish or puritanical. I'm suprised you missed this because in the other thread you pointed out that this is why Shinji is so upset when Misato offers herself to him in Ep. 23.

Shinji:
I want to help you in some way... and to be with you forever.

... despite its sincere poignancy, is simply not going to satisfy Asuka. This is a far as Shinji is going to go, and for Asuka, it is not nearly far enough. She goes on to reject him utterly in the following moments. not because of a percieved rejection by him, but because of a very real rejection by him, of her as an object of, I suppose, feminine worship. Might be going to far here. As a woman, might be less overstating, but then again, Asuka always desired attendtion and praise.



Actually, by Shinji's standards this is an amazingly explicit confession of love, and I can't see how you can interpret it as offering anything less. All I can say is that you are wrong. It is just a perceived rejection. He loves her and wants a romantic/sexual relationship with her, but is incapable of doing anything about it out of his inability to interact with others.

Remember, what Shinji ultimately learns in the end is that he must engage in relationships with others in order to validate his own existence. His problem is clearly social disfunction, not sexual repression.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 19:49 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:28 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:Worship might overstate what she wants, but she clearly regards herself as a cut above the common herd, and expects deference from them. Chosen from an early age as an "elite pilot", one of a handful in the three billions on Earth would do that.



I wonder if she would have felt anywhere near as special if she knew WHY she was eligible? Image

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 08:50 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:28 pm

Reichu wrote:I wonder if she would have felt anywhere near as special if she knew WHY she was eligible? Image



We'd probably skip the boring preliminaries and head straight for the bath-tub scene. But since it was all "pas devant les enfants", all she would have seen was her importance to all the adults around her - validating her existence that way, even while she was being pushed to her limits.

Finding that the first male pilot was - in effect - just a draftee dragged in off the street could not help but cause a disconnect on the social level.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 21:19 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:28 pm

Ok, I'm not getting a lot of leverage with the sexually prudish Shinji argument. He's not as open to sex as other characters, I think you'll give me that. My take, is that he's very conservative, quite old fashioned in his morals, and is in fact hostile to sex and sexuality.
I'll present my Shinji the Prude argument here.

My argument is essentially that Shinji represses his sexuality, refuses and supresses his libido, and generally disapproves for all matters concerning sex in any way. He the kind of kid, puritan pastors spend millions on failed abstinence programs trying to create, if you will.

Evidence for his negative attitude towards sex can be see as far back as episode #07. His disapproval of Misato's sexuality is blatently obvious here.
Image
It is obvious (1) that Shinji is embarrassed by Misato's attire and mortified by the thought that she'll actually go out in such revealing clothing. He's overreacting, and Misato is quite perplexed (2). She probobly never met a boy like him in her life! She quite rightly couldn't give a fiddlers about his prudish attitudes and teases him by crossing her arms, pushing up her cleavage(3).
Now watch. Between (4) and (5) Shinji makes a very curt turn, punctuating his disapproval and awkwardness quite well. He disapproves of many of her ways, her drinking, lazyness, slobbishness etc, as was shown thoughout this scene. However, he is most upset by this, very minor, flirtation. Shinji is not comfortable or understanding of this at all. His disapproval is not confined to Misato. He's annoyed by Touji and Aide's drooling over Misato as well (6). He does not regard their behaviour as acceptable or appropriate. He's not a typical teen.

Let's look at some more examples. This time with Asuka.
Image
When Asuka poses her "thermal expansion" problem (1), Shinji becomes visibly tense and awkward. However, note his reaction in (2). He turns away resolutely, rejecting her advances,and denying all knowladge of and interest in her "problem"(i.e. her breasts). He's quite annoyed here, both that she would be so immodest, and that she has put him in such an awkward position. Asuka is visibly put out by his reaction to her flirting, which would have been gauranteed to work on just about any other boy! But not this one.

Now the kiss scene. This is one of the best examples of Shinji's prudishness. When she first directly proposes the kiss to him he is quite visibly flustered(3), and then recoils, physically from her suggestion(4), perplexed as to even why she would want to kiss at all. Are these the reactions of someone looking for romance? His morals are even more offended when he gives bordom as her reasons (5). It's obvious he regards the entire suggestion they kiss as improper. Only some of Asuka's most ruthless teasing finally goads him into compliance. And note that even once he's committed, he still tenses up awkwardly before the kiss. (6) He does not want to kiss her. Asuka is the initiator and mover of the entire incident, and Shinji has to be dragged into it by her. He shows no interest before, during or after the kiss. Are these the action of a typical lecherous teenager. Only practised repression got him to this state.

His unusually negative attitudes towards sex are one of the reasons Misato's detonation of the Big Irony Bomb is so devestating.
Image
Watch his reaction to Misato's still tentative advance(1). He rejects it, instantly, loudly and resolutely(2). Now her advance is so subtle, that some still refuse to recognise as an advance at all! Yet watch his reaction. No Way! This is absolutely unacceptable to Shinji. Now while I'd agree that most 14 year olds would freak if a woman 15 years their senior started making advances, Shinji's uncharacteristically loud reaction here is deserving of some attendtion. He's normally complicit and timid, but not in this. Misato could not have ruined their relationship so effectively by any other method. It's obvious that he's shattered by the whole business(3), curling up on the bed. It's probobly the biggest betrayal of his trust she could have vested on him. So profoundly does is he affected, that he will not even look her in the eye until their final moments in #25', and even then only under duress.

Finally, note his extreme disapproval to the, unsurprising, revalation that yes, Misato has actually had sex.
Image
Shinji:
This is Misato? She does... this?
Misato:
Yes, this is also me... The melting into one another's hearts...
The me that Shinji doesn't know.
Reality does involve pain, but you just have to accept it.
Asuka:
Aaahh... I wonder if I'll act like Misato when I grow up?

He's visibly angry here(2)! What possible reason should he have to be angry? Because it's Misato? I think it's more than that. He disapproves of sex entirely, he sees it as "wrong". He would prefer to keep a chaste illusion of the people around him in his head. He can't accept that they are human beings, wanting them instead to be asexual beings rather than facing reality. It's interesting to contrast his reaction here, to Asuka's much more matter of fact attitude to sex(3). Asuka knows what sex is, and accepts it. While she does not have a fully mature attitude, her attitude is at least more mature than Shinji's. His views on sex are ultimately self-destructive, as seen in room 303 in Air.

Hopefully, I've made my argument a little clearer. Shinji isn't a typical gagging teenager. He's quite prudish, represses his sexuality, and disapproves of it in others. I think analysis of his relationship with Asuka in paticular, really can't ignore this fact. Shinji is not going to go looking for sex and by extendtion romance. Rather, he will run from it.

Of course, he's still a human being! He has a libido! And this is where the self destructive side of his prudishness come into play. I'll discuss this after a few good bashings of my above ravings! :E

If you need pics of other important scenes(i.e. episode #09), there were some posted earlier in this thread.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 22:05 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:28 pm

Yet Shinji stares at Kaworu in the shower. Oh-ho-ho!

Image

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 22:19 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:29 pm

In the scenes with Misato, it is becasue it's Misato. He thinks of her as a mother figure, and no one is comfortable with seeing his mother engaged in blatantly sexual behavior.

He reacts to Asuka the way he does because her behavior might lead him to engage in meaningful contact with a fellow human being. As much as he would like to, this he cannot do. He would have reacted the same way if she had started off by asking him to take her to a movie, instead of flaunting her breasts and kissing him. His problems have little or nothing to do with sex.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 22:26 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:29 pm

This all begs the question, of course, why Shinji drops all of his prior defenses with Kaworu.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 22:29 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:29 pm

OMF wrote:Evidence for his negative attitude towards sex can be see as far back as episode #07. His disapproval of Misato's sexuality is blatently obvious here.



Because your Mum's not supposed to be being sexy; she's supposed to be about looking after you, getting the dinner, tucking you up in bed, that sort of thing. Misato is not ready to be anyone's mother, as we see; but that's what he is really looking for. And this carries over to the complementation flashback to Misato's bedroom marathon.

It's also worth noting that Kaworu makes exactly the same gesture of sympathy that Misato does, but it only provokes a rather suggestive blush.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 22:32 GMT

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Postby ZeroRyoko1974 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:29 pm

seems like this is all a big "hedghogs delimma" to me. Odd though, in the end of the magma diver episode, when he notices his own "thermal expansion" he doesn't seem upset. He seems to have gotten over his sexual repression enough in End of Eva to get off to a prone Asuka.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 22:49 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:29 pm

Reichu wrote:This all begs the question, of course, why Shinji drops all of his prior defenses with Kaworu.


I would still say it was the way Kaworu treated him from the very begining, mixed in with the fact that he was attractive..

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 23:25 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:29 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:Because your Mum's not supposed to be being sexy; she's supposed to be about looking after you, getting the dinner, tucking you up in bed, that sort of thing. Misato is not ready to be anyone's mother, as we see; but that's what he is really looking for. And this carries over to the complementation flashback to Misato's bedroom marathon.


I'd argue that by episode #07 Shinji has not yet fully accepted Misato as his gaurdian. He's on better terms with her than episode #04 certainly, but he hasn't yet fully accepted her. She is at this point, I think, still his lazy, messy roommate, who he has to put up with.

Reichu wrote:Yet Shinji stares at Kaworu in the shower. Oh-ho-ho!


I knew the whole Kaworu thing would come back to bite me in the rear! At the risk of offending the legions of Shinji/Kaworu fangirls(and boys), I'll brave the thin ice, and retort.

Confusion. I think I stand on fairly firm ground when I say confusion is the word describing Shinji's feelings towards Kaworu. (It does not nessesarily exclude Shinji/Kawrou, so I'm safe from lynching as of yet!)

Kawrou makes I think, three advances, of increasing intensity. Firstly he asks Shinji can he accompany him to the showers. An innocuous request. Shinji is still flustered by it though. Why is for another thread. To be noted here is that he doesn't refuse.
Kaoru: I want to talk with you some more.
May I go with you?
Shinji: Eh?
Kaoru: I mean to the shower.
Aren't you going to shower?
Shinji: Yeah...
Kaoru: You mean "no"?
Shinji: Oh, yes. I don't mean NO.


Kawrou's second advance is when he holds Shinji's hand in the shower. Now this is more overt but given his speech beforehand about human contact, is still fairly ambiguous.
Kaoru: You avoid contact of the first kind at all costs.
do you fear to feel other people?
Being ignorant of others, you will never be betrayed
or hurt, though you will never escape from feeling sadness.
A person cannot erase sadness forever.
Everyone is alone.
However, people can forget, and so they are able to live.

Shinji is startled, but does not recoil as he did with Misato. Perhaps he has not detected or recognised Kaworu's advances? Or perhaps he's dismissing such conclusions as ridiculous? Or maybe he has( fangirl's delight) and has decided not to reject them.

However Kaworu's third advance, is unambiguous and direct.
Shinji: It's time.
Kaoru: It's over?
Shinji: We have to go to bed.
Kaoru: Together with you?
Shinji: Ah... no
, you are provided with your own, different room .

That's the limit. Kaworu has run smack into Shinji the Prude, who is absolutely not going to go to bed with him, or anyone for that matter, for any reason. That would be... inappropriate. Shinji immediately retreats back to decor, giving the polite social reason "you are provided with your own, different room". That's the way we do things in the land of Shinji, Mr Kaworu.

However, Shinji does not recoil in the same way to Kaworu's "I love you".(My ice is very thin now) He does not actually reject this statement, and is not put out by it enough to prevent him asking to sleep(-)over at Kaworu's place. He's doing this to avoid Misato, who he still can't look in the eye. Strange then that he should sleep in the same room as Kaworu, who has made an even more explicit advance only moments before.

Why?

Firstly he connects with Kaworu. Kaworu is the first human being(kind of) since his mother who has actually treated him first as a person, not a pilot or a tool.
Secondly, he's terrified of going home or being alone. The previous incident with Misato, coupled with the loss of Asuka, compounded by his knowladge of Rei, have left him effectively destitude of home or happiness. Then along comes Kaworu, a light at the end of the tunnel. A way out of loneliness.
Thirdly, Kaworu's a boy. If he was a she, then there is NO WAY Shinji would have asked to sleep over. Uncertainty. And confusion. I'll say confusion and leave the situation ambiguous, as it should be.
Fourthly, I think by Kaworu's reconciliatory statements after Shinji's flat refusal of sex(the ice is creaking dangerously now!), there is likely an understanding between the two that the topic is not one for consideration.(*crack*)

These are my thoughts as I plunge to my icy demise. My prude argument has now been applied to Kaworu as well, and as such must now brave tempests few have dared to face! Image

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 23:26 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:29 pm

Reichu wrote:This all begs the question, of course, why Shinji drops all of his prior defenses with Kaworu.



Because Kaworu seems like such an openly honest person, Shinji feels that he would never reject or betray him. Hence Shinji's unusually strong anger reaction when he finds out Kaworu is an Angel.

BTW, that's not really what "begs the question" means, though it seems to be how they use it on the nightly news broadcasts these days.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 23:27 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:29 pm

Well, if I'm using it wrong, feel free to educate me. Image

BTW, OMF, if you want to talk about Shinji and sexuality, here's the thread to do it.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 23:31 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:29 pm

Reichu wrote:Well, if I'm using it wrong, feel free to educate me. Image



Begging the question is actually a term for a logical fallacy meaning the conclusion is based on unproven premises. For instance, someone might construct this syllogism:

A: If Shakespere didn't write his own plays then we need to find out who did.
B: He didn't write his own plays.
Therefore:
C: We need to find out who did.

While this syllogism is correctly constructed, I could say it begs the question if I felt that B was not adequetely proven.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 23:44 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:29 pm

Reichu wrote:BTW, OMF, if you want to talk about Shinji and sexuality, here's the thread to do it.


I've run off on a tangent with the whole Shinji is a prude thing. And then went even further off with it's application to Kaworu. I'll be getting back on track to the Shinji-Asuka relationship discussion shortly, which is what this thread is all about. However, I do feel Shinji's frigidness for want of a better word is an important point to raise here.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2005, 00:01 GMT


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