Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Ray » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:55 am

I'm not going to dignify everything here with a response because I've gone on length about how Marvel ISN'T about war on terror etc. or nearly as deep as you say it is.

They DO need a clean slate. They bad vibes from the past movies are going to carry over unless they signal 100% 'hey we're doing things differently now and what happened before doesn't'.

If they really want to differentiate themselves from Marvel they need to abandon the "CU" part of the equation and just make good solo movies that showcase the characters.


and they are doing what you're saying. They're going to focus on Standalones for the next few years (two solo movies before and nothing but solo movies for the forseeable future after Flashpoint), and then try to make a Cohesive Universe with crossovers again once they've got enough solo movies out. They've learned they can't go any direction except Marvels direction.

But the fact is you only get ONE first BVS and Justice League movie, and when you mess up the FIRST justice league movie, nobody is going to go see the follow ups. That's gonna be a mark held against them by audiences forever.

Trying to make DC the dark and edgy Mature answer to Marvel is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.


Because Imitating the competition 100% right down to tone and goofiness doesn't make you seem desperate at all or condemn you to being trapped in their shadow FOREVER. They were trying to market to a different audience who wanted more mature Superhero material, it didnt pan out. So now they're just going to be diet-Marvel forever. You got what you wanted Chuck. I also fundamentally disagree that making a darker story with a non-batman character instantly compromises that character. But that's something we're never going to come to an accord over.

and yes. Audiences DO care about continuity between movies because it's all that's keeping them coming back to the theater.

compelled the big two to pander to the kind of completely worthless person that writes letters to comic books demanding an explanation for how Spider-Man was in Alaska with Wolverine when he was in Queens going curtain shopping with Mary Jane or some shit. The DCCU embraced all the shit that drowned the fun out of comic books.


AND THERE IT IS!

Because God forbid we care about what the people who buy the books think right? We should totally make everything samey and generic and not try to make stories for fans. God forbid stories try to be ABOUT something deeper right?

Also. Things aren't like that at DC anymore. Rebirth has pretty much managed to find the balance between the dark/gritty and silver age idealism.

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:28 pm

Marvel Comics and DC Comics only exist because of the market value of their IP. Comic book fans alone aren't enough to keep the lights on a the big two. You know why Marvel's intellectual property was a mess, cut up between multiple studios and distributors to the point that it took Disney becoming a monopoly to even start bringing them under one roof? Because Marvel was so close to completely going under that they had to desperately sell off the film and television rights to their iconic characters. The MCU exists because they managed to scrape up enough capital to try making movies with second tier properties like Iron Man, who until the MCU came along was less familiar to the general public than the Black Sabbath song of the same name. DC and Marvel are IP farms for the respective corporate overlords.

Comic book movies appeal to mass audiences or they fail. Period. So you take these characters and you make niche movies that appeal to comic book readers, the kind of hardcore fans that make "No one hates Star Trek as much as Star Trek fans" geekdom look mild and forgiving, and guarantee they flop, or you rediscover what made the characters iconic in the first place and work it.

I actually typed a much longer reply but went back and deleted it. I'm done having the same circular argument with you that has killed any interest in actual discussion of movies in this thread. That problem is as much me as it is you and I've perpetuated it by responding. Everything I could say about this has been said except this:

I can't judge your actual attitude about this from text and I am extremely hesitant to project because I may be wrong, but you sound really upset and strained about an imaginary battle between multinational conglomerates that don't give a fuck about you. The constant strum and drang posts about how DC is doomed or whatever, as if it actually matters, has gotten really repetitive and unhealthy. If you feel as stridently about this as you seem to, I really think you need to take a step back and take some deep breaths and just go focus on something else for a while. Get thee to a weedery and go chill with some real humans. Then grab a Wattpad or FF.net account and write your ideas into fiction or something. Go create, procreate, and recreate.

I'm going to follow my own advice. This thread has degenerated into you and me going back and forth with me writing long detailed essays that no one reads and you repeating the same points over and over and over, with the occasional driveby comment from someone stopping by to let us know how sophisticated they are because they watch Real Movies™ and are thus above the fray. Any actual discussion has been killed by the toxicity in this thread. There's a comic book movie in theaters right now that's on pace to beat Avengers at the box office with a majority black cast and there's maybe five posts about it in the whole thread while we go on and on and on perpetually disagreeing about a movie that came out in 2016 or some shit, not to mention the other half dozen superhero flicks coming out this year.

Fucking let it go.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:18 pm

You know what my favorite moments are with the DC and Marvel comics? Not the big, grand stories, but the little, focused ones. Things that gives us images like this:

SPOILER: Show
Image


Or remind us that the characters, for all of their 'godliness,' are humans:

SPOILER: Show
Image


These days, I find myself turning more and more to fan-art for those moments:

SPOILER: Show
Image


I wish we had more moments like these. That doesn't mean eliminating the high stakes, or even the darkness of the stories (I love a dark Gotham, with evil things scratching beneath the surface), but a story becomes more effective when we have something to connect to in it. They kind of realized that for Justice League, but it was implemented poorly. I think that's one of the things the Marvel movies do well, which is to add in the silly moments with the serious moments. That's real life: for every picture of a Soldier guarding a street corner, serious and scared, I can find you a picture of the same Soldier getting duct taped to the pipes for his birthday.

The comics do that well. I think the films will realize that you can do that, too. It may take some time and another franchise attempt, but we'll see what we get.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:28 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:You hate Zack Snyder. Stop scratching the scab and let it heal.

Actually, I've always seen Snyder as being one more movie away from finally making it as a coherent auteur. Maybe he would have finally gotten there if it wasn't for WB dragging him down with a franchise he wasn't ever really interested in to begin with.

Like... all of the elements needed to be a truly great filmmaker are all present in the entire collection of his current filmography, but they just aren't ever present in the same movie. He'll get one thing really right in movie movie, but drop the ball with another thing, and then vise versa for the next film he does. He's really good with fight scenes in The Watchmen, but fails at story progression and pacing. Sucker Punch is really good at pacing and story progression, but sucks at making fight scenes feel impactful. 300 doesn't have anything to write home about within terms of action and its pacing it just terrible, but the visuals are stunningly iconic. (And relatable human drama was never his strong suit by any stretch of the imagination, but I think very few of his works need it to begin with. So, you know... no harm, no foul for the most part, I guess.) You get the idea. That greatness is all there within that man, he just can't seem to muster it all together to work for a single film.

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:33 pm

He's basically Michael Bay, with talent.

He needs to pair up with a decent screenwriter, and an editor and producer that can reel him in, and he'll make some amazing stuff.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Guy Nacks » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:He's basically Michael Bay, with talent.


Bay has talent, he just lets it go to waste with those Transformers films.

The Rock is a great action film and Armageddon is dumb as hell, but it's extremely watchable.
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Postby silvermoonlight » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:00 am

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:He's basically Michael Bay, with talent.

He needs to pair up with a decent screenwriter, and an editor and producer that can reel him in, and he'll make some amazing stuff.


I agree with that as when Synder has a good script he can make it work but when he goes off on one we get things like Sucker Punch and I still cringe at that film to this very day though I am one of those people who likes Watchman but I heard the Watchman script was good because it had written over a number of years and had been really polished before it fell in to Synders hands.
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Postby Cybermat47 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:05 am

Snyder is a skilled director, but he’s only good at making things that are gritty and violent.

Watchmen? Great movie, fits the tone of the comic. Batman VS Superman? Butchers the title characters and the villains.

Speaking of Snyder, I wonder if he would have filmed the sex scene in 300 if he knew it was incest? Or maybe he’s into that. I won’t judge him.
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Postby silvermoonlight » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:19 am

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:Speaking of Snyder, I wonder if he would have filmed the sex scene in 300 if he knew it was incest? Or maybe he’s into that. I won’t judge him.


The 300 film is based on a Graphic novel by Frank Miller so if your referring to the Oracle of Delphi and the inbred priests having sex with her that is historically inaccurate but Miller is not known for his historical accuracy as he has the Spartans throwing around weird jarred comments about Greeks being boy lovers when Spartans were very in to homosexuality from what I've heard.I think the thing to take from 300 is a fun violent movie and pure popcorn fun but is very much in the realm of fantasy and based really, really loosely on real history.
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:43 pm

I just got back from Infinity War.

They did it. The crazy sons of bitches, they did it. A true epic of scale and scope not seen in Hollywood for a long time. Easily dethrones any of the other entries for best Marvel movie, and the best post-credits scene too.

Every member of the cast absolutely killed it.

IW was the first superhero movie to really capture the feel of comic books. No toning down powers, no walking back wild melodramatic plots, no fear of silliness and bright colors and a full range of drama, humor, and emotion. It’s a big movie with big characters and it goes balls to the wall in a way that’s utterly refreshing in an era when producing ~art~ apparently requires crawling up your own ass wrapped in fourteen layers of irony and self awareness to prove how aloof you are.

I know it won’t happen because it’s not a movie about a cobbler struggling with he sex addiction he developed to deal with the ennui following the death of his beloved poodle, but this movie seriously deserves a Besf Picture nod and nominations for the cast, as much or more than *Logan* did.

Marvel has had a lot of ups and downs in quality but the post-Perlmutter era is proving to be an exciting time when they’re ready to take some risks and let the sheer joy that is the madness of comic books shine, unbound and wild as it should be.
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:29 am

Chuckman wrote:Every member of the cast absolutely killed it.


It's a spoiler tag, and you have been warned  SPOILER: Show
Speaking of killing it, I like how Marvel didn't hold back on killing off characters left right and center, and I think it added to the movie's gravitas. Sure the Infinity Gauntlet can undo all sorts of shit, and we saw that Wanda has the power to bust Infinity Stones to nothing, it was nice to see them not hold back on just how serious shit can get. Though I will admit I really loved that there was a trial to go through of killing someone you love to get the Soul Stone, which was absolute genius.
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Postby chazthesilencer » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:59 am

Infinity War. Thanos was a cool villain; got a good dose of the Guardians, though I do wish the joking around was dialed back a little; action scenes where I could see what was going on were good (I hate nighttime action scenes); I had to chuckle at the ending. "Wow, they really went there!"

Thought it was rather lame how they got the Giant-Dwarf's forge burning again; a tiny spacecraft (or "Pod" as they called it) is all it takes to re-ignite a star? Why couldn't Thor use his zappy-powers to kick-start it?

When the King says "Get this man a shield", you should get the man a cool-looking, shiny new shield; not a pair of crappy wrist-guards.

Did anybody notice Hawkeye was missing? Me neither.
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Postby Chuckman » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:58 pm

View Original Postchazthesilencer wrote:Infinity War. Thanos was a cool villain; got a good dose of the Guardians, though I do wish the joking around was dialed back a little; action scenes where I could see what was going on were good (I hate nighttime action scenes); I had to chuckle at the ending. "Wow, they really went there!"

Thought it was rather lame how they got the Giant-Dwarf's forge burning again; a tiny spacecraft (or "Pod" as they called it) is all it takes to re-ignite a star? Why couldn't Thor use his zappy-powers to kick-start it?

When the King says "Get this man a shield", you should get the man a cool-looking, shiny new shield; not a pair of crappy wrist-guards.

Did anybody notice Hawkeye was missing? Me neither.


SPOILER: Show
The forge needed to be opened, not started. The dying star is just contained, not snuffed out. It was a feat of strength, not a lightning thing, as was holding the aperture open.

Since you asked it made me realize that this movie is continuing the chain of retcons that makes Thor magical again in the MCU and drops the aliens crap, kind of a flip to sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology, which is Kirby as fuck.


This movie prompted me to do something I've never done before: See it in theaters twice. Part of the reason, I admit, is that I had a terrible seat near the screen at the IMAX and 3D movies, if you're not sitting in a narrow band of the middle of the theater, can be painful to watch. The combination of bad angle that kept separating the 3D images and the enormous screen being so close made this a tough one. Plus, the audience reactions drowned out a bunch of dialogue after the jokes/big reveals.

Even so I'd normally wait for it to be on home video before seeing it again. Actually, since I have MoviePass and this movie will be in theaters as long or longer than Black Panther, it's entirely likely I will see it several times. The only other time I've been even tempted was Godzilla in 2014, when a shitty theater with a washed out projection and bad sound hampered my experience.

I actually didn't mind all the noise, etc. at the opening night showing. I went to an opening night showing for that very reason. There's something magical about seeing a movie with a bunch of sassy black ladies (Made Rampage more fun than it had any right to be) and the raw energy of a crowd that's as invested in the happenings on screen as I am. A really invested, emotional crowd that laughs and claps and cheers and cries turns a movie into a kind of communal performance art.

A second viewing in a quieter theater made me like it even more.

Most of all, this movie has made Dr. Strange my favorite MCU character.

SPOILER: Show
They did more than lift the whole "magic is kung fu" thing and throw out some half-baked inconsistently appropriated eastern philosphy ala George Lucas. Strange embodies humility, patience, and understanding, and the Russo brothers deserve special credit in this movie for trusting the intelligence of the audience enough not to turn Strange into a detached mystic stock character and show, rather than tell, his outlook and approach to problem solving. As much of a gloriously sassy bitch he is, his actions are driven by a powerful humility. He's the only character that focuses on defeating Thanos rather than beating him. Everyone else is focused purely on hitting the enemy harder or faster and he's on a whole other level.

Plus the aesthetics of his big fight with Thanos are absolutely beautiful and a step above the action scenes in his solo movie, I hope his next one takes it a further level beyond that.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:13 pm

Wow, that movie was a lot to take in. I will say that I was very impressed by Thanos. My biggest fear going in to this movie was that they could not possibly deliver on the 6 years of build up he's had, and I am very happy to say I was completely wrong. Brolin absolutely nailed it with his performance. It's not a very high bar to clear, but I think he is far and away the best villain from the MCU. I won't get into details but the change in his motivation from page to screen really helped to make him a more compelling character, I thought.

Maybe someone more familiar with the comics can answer this for me, because it left me scratching my head.
SPOILER: Show
Does Thanos have some kind of healing factor, or get one from the gems? He got the shit beat out of him and stabbed and shanked on top of that, but he always seemed to be fine shortly after. Gamora stabbed him in the neck but you'd never know it by the end.


As for the rest:
SPOILER: Show
I am not the LEAST bit surprised they did the finger snap. I've expected that since he first showed uo in Avengers and the announcement that IW would be two parts. No point doing this Big Iconic Comic Story if you aren't going to commit to the big moment.
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:48 pm

View Original Postchazthesilencer wrote:Did anybody notice Hawkeye was missing? Me neither.

Honestly, with the amount of character saturation, if Nick Fury and a few others didn't show up, I really wouldn't have noticed.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:04 pm

I agree about his motivation. I went back an read the original Infinity Gauntlet comic and... frankly, it's terrible, even by standards of the day. Maybe I'd need more context from Thanos backstory and the lead up to it to "get it" but as a standalone story it's not very good at all and the way it's executed...

Spoilers for an old comic book  SPOILER: Show
The whole book is just Thanos standing around yelling on a big platform floating in outer space.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:01 pm

Movie was fine. Enjoyable because it never stops moving. Though I feel like A LOT of these bigger Marvel team-ups films it will lose most of its magic when/if I ever revisit it as a home viewing experience. The best thing about it is the unexpected relationships created by characters bouncing off each other. I wish the movie spent more time with just the characters interacting with one another but the plot never stops.

Ending fell flat for me though. Actually it REALLY annoyed because I know none of the “consequences” from the ending are going to stick. Like CIVIL WAR this is going to be another case where people talk about how “serious this Marvel movie is” and all the “consequences” put in place will be undone very quickly in the following movie.
SPOILER: Show
I.E. Spider-Man: Homecoming 2 starts filming this July.

Maybe I just dislike how the Russo Brothers as filmmakers seem completely devoid of a unique voice of their own & simply do the job the producers want.

Either way, it was still an enjoyable time out at the movies. Josh Brolin did great work with what little he was given, the scene with the Guardians meeting Thor was pure gold and everything with Doctor Strange worked.

It will be curious to see what’s going to happen with Ant-Man & the Wasp this summer.
SPOILER: Show
I’m guessing the movie is going to roll along fine and then in the last ten minutes half the cast will “die” and we’ll get the first idea of what the “survivors” are going to do to get even in Infinity War Part II.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:30 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Maybe I just dislike how the Russo Brothers as filmmakers seem completely devoid of a unique voice of their own & simply do the job the producers want.

True. The Russo Brothers are great in our technical terms. They make solid movies with a consistent tone. But there's nothing unique about their voice. With these multi-film franchises, however, I often wonder if the Auteur Theory couldn't also apply to the producer as much as it could the director to some degree. (Maybe not the theory proper, but certainly the spirit of the theory.) I mean, Kevin Feige has obviously been the one to consistently keep a specific vision in mind throughout the whole franchise, even if that vision was more or less to simply tie in all of the Marvel movies within one big universe. And we've seen this trend of producer-lead franchises before in the past, like in the cases of Godzilla, Dragonheart, and Terminator. (Though, Godzilla has been more or less a studio-lead franchise since the death of Tomoyuki Tanaka.)

I'm not defending the creative decisions made by Paul Feige in any way. I don't think his artistic vision (if there even is one that he has to begin with) is anything that's particularly interesting or anything like that. And I don't think that the finished products will be able to artistically rival the visions of certain directors. But producers tend to be just as important as directors when it comes to making sure the movie actually gets made. They're both as important as each other, just in vastly different ways. If anything, I think that the Marvel movies reminding the viewer to at least consider the producer as "the other wheel in the bicycle" while watching a movie is a good thing.

And, despite the lack of visual or artistic creativity of Paul Feige's involvement in Marvel, he's still able to run a better ship than Kathleen Kennedy's Star Wars franchise. I'm still not sure what's going on there, but every spin-off movie so far has had horrible production complications and every episode release has felt as though it's had extremely confused narratives.

The best example of a producer-lead franchise that I can think of off the top of my head is the original Star Wars movies. George Lucas being a film director as well as the producer of that trilogy helped bring as perfect of a blend of over-arching producer guidance and creative narratives choices as we've yet to see from a non-adaptive Hollywood production. (Maybe Luca's role as director of the first film disqualifies the OT from the list of producer-lead franchises, but, in my opinion, being able to do both simply makes one more qualified for the job.)

Have said all of that, I still haven't seen Infinity Wars yet. So, I'll probably pop back in after this weekend or something to chat about it.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Tue May 01, 2018 6:50 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Ending fell flat for me though. Actually it REALLY annoyed because I know none of the “consequences” from the ending are going to stick. Like CIVIL WAR this is going to be another case where people talk about how “serious this Marvel movie is” and all the “consequences” put in place will be undone very quickly in the following movie.
SPOILER: Show
I.E. Spider-Man: Homecoming 2 starts filming this July.

Maybe I just dislike how the Russo Brothers as filmmakers seem completely devoid of a unique voice of their own & simply do the job the producers want.


I wish more audience members would check meta knowledge like this at the door. The phrase isn't suspension of disbelief, it's willing suspension of disbelief.

SPOILER: Show
You know what else? None of them actually died. They're actors.
the prophecy is true

Statistical fact: Cops will never pull over a man with a huge bong in his car. Why? They fear this man. They know he sees further than they and he will bind them with ancient logics. —Marty Mikalski

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby movieartman » Sat May 05, 2018 6:19 am

Re-Watched almost all Mcu movies and caught up on ones I put off in time for Infinity War.

Black Panther (2018) - First Time Viewing...
- A bit overrated but still full on great, I would put it alongside the 1st Iron Man in quality.
- Jordan gives a fantastic performance & is charismatic as hell but... (and I fully admit this is personal bias) I don't find him sympathetic, he is no different then a school shooter who massacres innocent people because he was bullied, there are thousands of places in the world that are a hundred billion times worse off and yet they treat American ghetto life as some nightmare-ish atrocity that need a genocidal revolution to be free of. It's a morally reprehensible message that audiences are taking in entirely the wrong way.
- Klaw is fun but ultimately wasted in this film and in the general Mcu.
- The updated Panther suit doesn't look quite as good as his Civil War suit and makes him a bit over powered.
- Pleased with Martin Freeman's handling. Was afraid he would be degraded non stop for being the out of touch white man, I loved the moment with him and Shuri were he is looking out into the cave & railway and it dawns on her that despite his awe he is able to fully understand what he is looking at, she becomes enthusiastic to discuss it with him.
- Some of the CGI was surprisingly poor, characters getting thrown especially.

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol.2 (2017) - First & 2nd Viewings...
Pros...
- Ego is a fantastic villain a much much needed improvement on Ronan who was the weak link of the otherwise superb first film.
- Score is fantastic and punctuates the emotional beats in the film almost perfectly.
- Yondu is really great & gets some of the best character work in the mcu.
- Whole 3rd act is really damn epic.

Cons...
- The Tazerface joke wasn't funny at all and was beat into the ground.
- The moment of teaching Groot how to use the nuke was beat into the ground also and was the sole weak part of the fantastic 3rd act.
- Couple very out of place bathroom humor jokes that pissed me off in my 1st viewing but upon reflection (and the much worse material in Thor 3) aren't as big a deal.

Thor - Ragnarok (2017) - First Time Viewing...
Pros...
- Hela is a fairly flat villain but is so utterly badass she makes up for it compared to Ronan/Malekith.
- Odin's send off was nicely done and despite my large amount of problems with the rest of the film I commend them for not going ahead with his original death dying as a crazed hobo in a muck ridden alley.
- Was not down on Valkyrie for them intentionally making her look nothing like the character, but Tessa kinda surprised me. Her mannerisms were fun. She gets a really well shot hand to hand fight with Loki.
- This is far from the best Loki material but he is still fun throughout the film.
- They emphasize Thor being really badass throughout the film which is a bit of fresh air compared to him being a bit neutered in the Avengers films (minus him destroying Sokovia)
- The Gladiator fight is damn good.
- Score overall is decent.

Cons...
- THIS is what I feared when I heard the original Guardians was campy before seeing it. It thankfully proved me dead wrong, this... mother of fuck I spent at the very least half this film cringing hard. The "humor" is awkward, painful, grating and downright weird.
- They had a perfect set up for a warm send off (nicely using the theme from the 1st film) and ruined it with one of the worst jokes in the entire film.
- Hulk's CGI looked notably worse then in Age of Ultron except maybe the Gladiator scene.
- Mark Ruffalo is wasted. I felt a kinda of wise dignity to him in the Avengers films. None of that is here.
- Jeff Goldblum is wasted. (I want to see him as a serious Lex Luther so much)
- Karl Urban is wasted.
- Doctor Strange cameo is blah.
- Almost all the outfits & sets on Sakaar look cheap & un-authentic as hell.

They completely spit on the potential we had for Planet Hulk & Thor's norse apocalypse stories. Fuck Taika Waititi & fuck Marvel for letting him loose on this. Gunn could have done this vastly better. This is the worst Mcu film. It has a few aspects that are better then anything in Thor Dark World & Iron man 2 but it also sadly has a bunch of stuff far worse then anything in those films.

Will watch Homecoming tomorrow. And IW later this week.


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