Comic Books!

[movieartman]

Nick Spencer honest-to-god calling DC rebirth "pandering to the conservative Market"

Ok seriously, fuck that mother fucker.
Not being beaten over the head with SJ so hard your skull caves isn't pandering to conservatism, it's just being normal.

And Chuckman. I recall you stating this in response to Spencer's use of black characters...

What the fuck is this shit?

I was going to start reading cape books monthly again but you know what, fuck this. I read entertainment as an escape, I don't need to be lectured on how I should feel about social issues in a comic book.

Protip for creators: If you want to send a message, do it through symbolism, plot and drama instead of just having the characters line up and tell me what to think.

Edit: JESUS CHRIST WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH MARVEL

[Mr. Tines]

safe spaces at comic conventions

Catching up with where SciFi conventions have been for some years now, in other words.

[NemZ]

Yes, the cancer has metastasized. We shall see if Trump is toxic enough to kill it or if he'll just make us sick.

[Chuckman]

And Chuckman. I recall you stating this in response to Spencer's use of black characters...

In what you quoted I said artists should make political statements through symbolism and plot, not fourth wall breaking lectures at the audience.

All art is political.

[movieartman]

In what you quoted I said artists should make political statements through symbolism and plot, not fourth wall breaking lectures at the audience.

That is what me & Ray are talking about, current Marvel has absolutely no idea of the difference.
1st issue of Waid's Champions had Kamala face the reader after stopping ChoHulk from killing a sex slaver and say she isn't going to give a lecture... and then she gives a blatant lecture about not using excessive force while cops are directly in the background.

[Ray]

The creator of Thanos (Jim Starlin) was sent to the hospital when his Sodastream machine exploded.

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/t ... m-accident

[movieartman]

Behind on almost all comics I was reading. Burned out I think.

Gonna go back and read all the Dark Horse Fire & Stone arc Alien/Predator/Prometheus comics an try and get back into a comic reading mood.

[movieartman]

Salty as it appears Squadron Supreme has been stealth canceled as it wasn't in today's February solications.
Hoping it will get relaunched with a better artist.

[Ray]

[DELETED]

[movieartman]

If anyone can still bring themselves to care about the X-Men, new team line ups & creative teams have been announced.
http://www.cbr.com/marvel-reveals-x-men ... ping-info/

[Bagheera]

1st issue of Waid's Champions had Kamala face the reader after stopping ChoHulk from killing a sex slaver and say she isn't going to give a lecture... and then she gives a blatant lecture about not using excessive force while cops are directly in the background.

Isn't that more a matter of common sense than moralizing? I mean, employing excessive force isn't a hot idea in the best of times, but it seems particularly stupid when the police are standing right there.

[Chuckman]

Have we reached a point where heroes that don't murder in cold blood are preachy?

[NemZ]

Not sure where you're quoting that from, but it would seem to me the complaint is that it's a blatant political message to the reader using the characters as mouthpieces. Whatever happened to the tradition of using relevant issues as plot material but letting the audience draw their own messages from the situation?

[Bagheera]

Not sure where you're quoting that from, but it would seem to me the complaint is that it's a blatant political message to the reader using the characters as mouthpieces. Whatever happened to the tradition of using relevant issues as plot material but letting the audience draw their own messages from the situation?

It is a fiction that never truly existed, like any other "golden age". Or did you think Speedy's (Green Arrow's sidekick) drug addiction in the 80s was subtle? How about Swift's A Modest Proposal? How about (insert any of a bajillion examples stretching back to antiquity)? Plenty of authors are doing subtlety these days, just as plenty of others weren't all along the line. Once you realize that it's just a matter of how much your confirmation bias is kicking in.

Honest to God, it's like everyone's forgotten how insufferably tedious things were when the Comics Code ruled the roost. The very fact that we can actually have a conversation about excessive violence in a comic book these days is a novelty, and here we are treating it like it's some kind of imposition. At least authors have the option to go there if they want to!

[movieartman]

Isn't that more a matter of common sense than moralizing?

Have we reached a point where heroes that don't murder in cold blood are preachy?

She is literally talking directly to the reader/audience (in the context of the comic she is talking to reporters & gathered people with phone cameras)

And no people who have codes aren't preachy, but ones who go on 2 & a half page rants about it are.

I'm fine with Metaphor & politics being in comics but Marvel is almost nothing but that now, they are one sidedly beating us over the head endlessly.
Frank Miller's Holy Terror looks subtle compared to some of the crap coming out of Marvel lately.

[Ray]

@bagheera
Recommended viewing
https://youtu.be/O6G7ontRInU?t=7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toodrD6I-dg

TLDW?

Basically the problem comes down to a combination of lack of audience interaction, and faux outrage on the part of left leaning critics and so called 'fans' alike. Basically, the fans get pushed to the wayside because Marvel lacks the audience interaction it had in the past, and the fan interaction they do have is through the filters of critics. The majority of whom are extremely left leaning.

The fact is the majority of people who read comics come from all over and have varying political beliefs. They come to read a good story. But these people are making it so that fans who would otherwise buy a book regardless of political beliefs are leaving because the books on the rack today outright INSULT them and condemn their political beliefs as wrong, and paint everyone who is opposed to their political beliefs as good. and the creators (from both of the big two) fanning the flames aren't helping.

Not every conservative or right leaning person is 'evul'. But the way Nick Spencer writes Captain America, or the way Sana Amanat is writing Ms. Marvel, or the way Marguerite Bennet writes Fem!thor, you'd think the entire Marvel universe HATES anyone who doesn't lean left.

Conservatives buy comics just as much as liberals, and alienating a whole market seems counter-intuitive to making profits. At least to me.

Edit: correction Jason Aaron wrote FemThor. Not Bennet.

[movieartman]

Rebirth Superman news, another damn crossover between titles, that said it sounds a lot more intriguing then Doomed, Truth or The Final Days of Superman.
In DC Comics’ first Direct Currents Magazine, free to consumers and retailers (mostly), they take us inside 48 hours of a Superman Writers Summit held at DC Comics at the beginning of the year with Dan Jurgens, Peter Tomasi, Patrick Gleason and Geoff Johns that set up the current bestselling Rebirth run on the character that has done plenty to rescue the character from DC’s doldrums.
This includes a crossover between the titles kicking off in March next year, dubbed Superman Reborn. And yes, they do know who Mr Oz is. And soon, so will we.
What Clark is will become more unsettling. It involves the multiverse, including the Superman of Mark Millar and Dave Johnson‘s Red Son and the President Superman of Multiversity.
The multiverse comes visiting. Superman and Lex must team up. Godslayers arrive. And at the heart of it, is Superman’s family, Jon and Lois…

The fact is the majority of people who read comics come from all over and have varying political beliefs. They come to read a good story. But these people are making it so that fans who would otherwise buy a book regardless of political beliefs are leaving because the books on the rack today outright INSULT them and condemn their political beliefs as wrong, and paint everyone who is opposed to their political beliefs as good. and the creators (from both of the big two) fanning the flames aren't helping.

Not every conservative or right leaning person is 'evul'. But the way Nick Spencer writes Captain America, or the way Sana Amanat is writing Ms. Marvel, or the way Marguerite Bennet writes Fem!thor, you'd think the entire Marvel universe HATES anyone who doesn't lean left.

Conservatives buy comics just as much as liberals, and alienating a whole market seems counter-intuitive to making profits. At least to me.

This, thank you Ray.
That said as much insane propaganda is in Spencer's Sam Cap book, I was at least pleased that he didn't overly or irrationally demonize Us Agent who he does very much portray as a conservative right wing type.

[Chuckman]

It is a fiction that never truly existed, like any other "golden age". Or did you think Speedy's (Green Arrow's sidekick) drug addiction in the 80s was subtle? How about Swift's A Modest Proposal? How about (insert any of a bajillion examples stretching back to antiquity)? Plenty of authors are doing subtlety these days, just as plenty of others weren't all along the line. Once you realize that it's just a matter of how much your confirmation bias is kicking in.

Honest to God, it's like everyone's forgotten how insufferably tedious things were when the Comics Code ruled the roost. The very fact that we can actually have a conversation about excessive violence in a comic book these days is a novelty, and here we are treating it like it's some kind of imposition. At least authors have the option to go there if they want to!

Authors can go anywhere they want and I'm under no obligation to like it.

[pwhodges]

Conservatives buy comics just as much as liberals, and alienating a whole market seems counter-intuitive to making profits. At least to me.

I thought one approach to competition was to establish your own market and own that rather than trying to spread yourself more thinly over many; it may work better to make choices that alienate some customers but are strongly approved of by others rather than trying to appease all of them and still satisfying none.

If marketing was as simple as a single bullet-point, surely no one would even need to put effort into it?

[Bagheera]

Conservatives buy comics just as much as liberals, and alienating a whole market seems counter-intuitive to making profits. At least to me.

Okay, two things:

First, anyone who talks about "majorities" without sale figures and polling data to support their arguments is making stuff up. It gets awfully tedious hearing people speak for the masses when in fact they're just another voice in the herd, and I really wish more people with YouTube access would recognize that fact.

Second, the only one who should worry about Marvel's profits is Marvel. The rest of us should buy comics we like and pass on ones we don't, and that is what will tell Marvel what people really want. And so far, given the way e.g. Ms. Marvel seems to be raking in both critical acclaim and sales hand over fist, it seems clear that people want Ms. Marvel even if you don't. The same is true of Spencer's Cap and Bennet's Thor.

Now, you don't have to like these things, nobody does. And if you don't like them, you're free to buy other things. That's the wonder of a free market! But acting like people who like these things, and maybe don't like some of the things you like, are somehow not true fans is really shaky reasoning. Has it occurred to you that maybe Marvel and most of its creators actually like the direction they're going in now? That they maybe like being able to tell the stories they want to tell, and that an increasingly expanding fanbase feels similarly? You say fans get pushed to the wayside, but that's hard to believe when Ms. Marvel's graphic novels routinely make the NYT bestseller list. Somebody's buying those books, after all. It might not be you, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

You're free to vote with your dollar, of course, but as always if you're outvoted the remedy is to realize that the book's maybe not for you and move on, not to complain incessantly about people telling stories you don't want told. Buy what you like, and let people who like Kamala, and Jane Foster, and Sam Wilson do the same.