Why I Don't Like Mari

[robersora]

How does porn work in Japan. Like does anno and co get any money from hentai manga based off their stuff?

Normally they wouldn't, as most hentai featuring characters of proper properties get's released in the shady business of doujinshi.

[Bagheera]

B-But all that porn!

But Asuka has more. More porn, more fanservice, more merchandise. Your entire premise fails because Asuka is simply better at it.

[NemZ]

Nonsense cleaned up.

[Kendrix]

@Ray:

I overall agree Mari is what Anno and Gainax promise, fan service The issue isn't her bust size persay, but that she acts and looks similar to a mid-teenage girl like the others, yet has far larger breats and booty compared to Asuka or Rei or the norm, thus voluptuous fan service lol They emphasize her knowing this and the jiggle as they move *drools alittle*.

So, she simply has a different body type that sets her apart from already established characters?
People do have different body types, and mature at different speeds. Mari would be an early bloomer by but that level of developement is quite usual for, say, someone with hispanic genes who might have full-on- boobs or stubble at that age. She even finds them pretty much as annoying as they'd be IRL.

The only thing about her actual personality that could be considered fetishy is maybe her slightly teasing streak and the scent fixation, but those are just potentially, not inherently sexual, she doesn't even have a love interest or anything, (mostly because the situation in-universe is dire, it's not a romcom and she's just a supporting character) the drafts had her vaguely interested in Shinji and some things in 2.22 could still be read to imply the vague beginnings of such a thing I suppose, but then the time skip came and it's off the table pretty much.

She's pretty much a born hero & warrior, & for all the clamor of people that such a person as a pilot could solve the plot, she's not that much more powerful against the conspiracy than anyone else, but that she still tries & fights as much as her circumstances allow her, well, that does make a point. It was because of her - in part, not exclusively - that Shinji went back, she ended fourth impact & spared his life, I think her impact on the story is not more or less than that of any other roughly comparable supporting character.

We have Misato who's curvy , Rei who's medium/ dainty, Asuka who's athletic & petite with plenty of butt, so, tall hourglass-ish chick seems like someone who'd stand out and widen the "sortiment".

[Bagheera]

So, she simply has a different body type that sets her apart from already established characters?
People do have different body types, and mature at different speeds. Mari would be an early bloomer by but that level of developement is quite usual for, say, someone with hispanic genes who might have full-on- boobs or stubble at that age.

I know women who looked like she does when they were 12, so yeah.

[Kouzou]

Even though she shows the least amount of skin in the whole film series

She isn't a main character so she doesn't show as much. Ritsuko is in the movies far more, yet she shows far less. Rei and Asuka, especially in the series, are already well established in depth. We know their histories. They are more than the sexy trio, as they serve more as love prospects for Shinji.

Mari is fulfilling her niche of being an additional side chick. Asuka leads her around and she hasn't done anything meaningful with Shinji aside from a sexy intro and the fighting Rei some.
Now for Kendrix's=

So, she simply has a different body type that sets her apart from already established characters?

Nope, beyond that. While she is above average in voluptuousness despite the rest of her body being super athletic, it is the combo with her personality. Anno has always promised fan service. And since Mari has done nothing but fight and use humor to hid her inner weakness, we haven't seen her inner struggle like Asuka and Misato. Until then, she stays full fan service. I know all about maturation rates, and her age is a mystery, but I also know what is the norm and what is exaggerated. Asuka and Rei are realistic...usually lol And although Misato and Ritusko's bust are above average for where they would normally be, it isn't too far fetched. But Mari's body fat allocation is very concentrated on her bust and bottom. Realistically, for that body fat %, barring extreme exception in genetics, some of it would go to her thighs and hips and stomach. It is simple directional stability in evolution and nutrition.

The only thing about her actual personality that could be considered fetishy is maybe her slightly teasing streak and the scent fixation, but those are just potentially, not inherently sexual

I will admit she has some importance as the voice of the veteran eva audience, i.e. Anno's head specifically in terms of what he might like to say to them or imagine someone doing in that role that would truly enjoy it and know far more than the average characters do. But that still relegates her to fan service and not a realistic struggle for a young woman to be going through.
Now, as we know, Anno does his research. Women have more sensitive noses than men, and as with all things different about a female versus male with primates, this is related towards safety for a child; nurturing and child rearing. That being said, she likes the lcl which is like the womb, and Shinji's scent mixed with it. One could wonder if she isn't some kind of Aunt figure lol

She's pretty much a born hero & warrior

I get what you want out of her. You like the female warrior thing not as its intended sexual fetish for the young adult to adult male demographic, but as a symbol for feminism. I get the Western perspective. But that perspective is based in sexual fetish as a primary. See Aatalanta, Artemis, Athena, all the way to Wonder Woman(made by a classic studiest who had SNM fantasies and 2 wives basically). Men like warrior women in the short term for fantasies, but it is a woman's nurturing self and ability to augment and care that wins the long run. Same with men in terms of extremes. Girls don't go for guys like Kaworu in the long run, they go for Kaji. Guys go for Rei or a more settled Asuka or Ritsuko, not Mari, normal Asuka, or modern Maya.
I was stationed in Vilseck, so I get your culture too. But that leads me to my point. I was Infantry in the US Army. I choose my MOS. I did see combat in Afghanistan(2012-2013). And I can tell you, when you have guys who abuse humor, they are hiding their fear. The two guys who joked the most where the most insecure and did the worst in combat.
What saved them was discipline, following orders (if lawful/moral), staying in shape, training, checking your equipment and if you have joes your joes before a role out. Going over the plan if worst comes to worst. We built them up. Mari is not a warrior, nor is Asuka. Shinji when he brings himself to it is. Rei is as well, but she lacks violence of action/passion. Asuka and Mari get results through anger and assertiveness, but this fails as often as it succeeds, both in the series with Asuka, and in the movies for Asuka and her lesser doppelganger Mari.
As for mindsets, Gendo and Fuyutsuki are supreme, as is SEELE. Misato and Ritsuko at times are as well, but they vary. The bridge crew are far better soldiers than the pilots, including when under combat. They stay disciplined in the Rebuilds(remember Maya failing compared to Aoba and Hyuga?, same thing Asuka did compared to Rei and Shinji near the end of the series). Shinji is the most successful eva pilot in history. Fact is fact, AWOL and struggles aside.
EDIT 2: Fixed quote box lol Forgot to use Preview, my bad. Still getting used to forum writing again.

We have Misato who's curvy , Rei who's medium/ dainty, Asuka who's athletic & petite with plenty of butt, so, tall hourglass-ish chick seems like someone who'd stand out and widen the "sortiment".

I agree, she balances out the pallet. But that helps my argument more than yours. We both agree she has significance, but I assert fan service, not meaning.
EDIT: It was Kaworu who stopped 4th impact with the impaling and sacrificing himself as a Christ figure, NOT Mari's little ejecting Shinji out thing.

[pwhodges]

EDIT: It was Kaworu who stopped 4th impact with the impaling and sacrificing himself as a Christ figure, NOT Mari's little ejecting Shinji out thing.

The film went to the trouble of telling us otherwise quite explicitly.

[Kouzou]

The film went to the trouble of telling us otherwise quite explicitly.

Elaborate. Kaworu impaled the eva and allowed himself, the now 13th angel to die. Mari only did the follow up action. Even in the core fight, Mari was support for Asuka.
Further, given that Kaworu's image was shown briefly before Shinji was ejected, and how he can resist both in the original series and in the rebuilds, it is logical to assume that Kaworu's soil is now in the 13th/ his influence is why Shinji allowed himself to be ejected.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Kaworu in that I think, even as an angel/alien immortal lifeform/sexless kinda of, he is too effeminate of a character. That being said, he died as Shinji's brother. "Am I my brother's keeper?"~ Cain Why yes Kaworu, you are and died as one. That brotherhood and sacrifice is what stopped fourth impact. Shinji, working with Yui's soul and whatever essence his eva has at the time, unconsciously decides wether he leaves the Eva or not, not Mari.

[pwhodges]

After Kaworu dies we hear (and see):

"The Gates of Guf aren't closing yet!"
"Our little doggy must be Seele's insurance policy!"

Then Mari ejects Shinji, the Eva goes dull, and the impact stops. This makes it clear that Shinji is still an impact trigger in his own right even after Kaworu's sacrifice. Although it is made clear that the dual pilots were required to break through the barrier and to remove the spears from Lilith, it is not stated that the impact requires that, and the film shows us otherwise.

[BlueBasilisk]

^Which is why Rei Q was ordered to kidnap him in the first place. Kaworu's death was honestly kind of pointless. All it did was cut off Unit 13's ability to fly, which carries some unsavory implications about what he was doing during all of this.

[Arcadia's legacy]

What kind of implications exactly?

[BlueBasilisk]

He's the one causing or enabling the Eva to fly and manifest those halos, and he's able to take control of it and make it impale itself with the spears even though his controls are disconnected and it's completely unresponsive to Shinji for some reason.

He's either letting Eva 13 do what it's doing, or he's the one doing it.

[Bagheera]

She isn't a main character so she doesn't show as much. Ritsuko is in the movies far more, yet she shows far less. Rei and Asuka, especially in the series, are already well established in depth. We know their histories.

This is incorrect, and quite explicitly so in the case of Shikinami (who was confirmed by Anno to be a different character than Soryu, and was given a different name to drive the point home). We actually don't know any more about Shikinami than we do Mari.

[BlueBasilisk]

What we do know about Asuka's backstory:
*She's an ace pilot and captain in the Euro Air Force
*She and Unit 02 were evaluated for deployment after the 4th Angel's defeat.
*She knew Misato before coming to Tokyo-3 but they haven't seen each other for a while.
*She doesn't have any close friends and doesn't like being around other people. Misato's the exception.
*She pilots Unit 02 because she wants to and feels like it's the only place where she belongs.
*She thinks aloud by talking to a hand puppet that has her name stitched on its dress.

It's not a lot but it paints her as a very different character than Asuka Soryu.

[Kouzou]

After Kaworu dies we hear (and see):

"The Gates of Guf aren't closing yet!"
"Our little doggy must be Seele's insurance policy!"

Then Mari ejects Shinji, the Eva goes dull, and the impact stops. This makes it clear that Shinji is still an impact trigger in his own right even after Kaworu's sacrifice. Although it is made clear that the dual pilots were required to break through the barrier and to remove the spears from Lilith, it is not stated that the impact requires that, and the film shows us otherwise.

While there are things Kaworu knew not revealed yet, and also resulted in his allowing himself to die in Shinji's place, and also removing himself as a threat to mankind/ use as a tool to combine with Adam or Lilith, it is also well established that an Eva with Shinji in it can deny his ejection from said Eva. Kaworu convinced Shinji to stop with the use of the spears and that they had been deceived. If not for this, Shinji and Kaworu could have simply either killed all of humanity save maybe Shinji, or combined all of mankind into one....again perhaps lol All Mari did was leg work. In fact, as messed up in the head as Shinji was, given he is the chosen "Judge of mankind" as he was in EoE and the main protagonist, if Shinji didn't want "4th Impact" then even IF the Gates of Guf HAD stayed open, SEELE would have still failed...possibly AGAIN if this is a continuation and not a true Rebuild.

So sadly, I must give credit where it is due, and that Kaworu and Shinji combined almost caused AND PREVENTED 4th(or another attempt at 3rd) Impact. All Mari did was play fetch She is a good lil' doogie. Now, what do we call female dogs?

[pwhodges]

Kaworu convinced Shinji to stop with the use of the spears and that they had been deceived.

The point is rather that he didn't, and Shinji went ahead regardless!

If not for this, Shinji and Kaworu could have simply either killed all of humanity save maybe Shinji, or combined all of mankind into one....again perhaps lol. [...] messed up in the head as Shinji was, given he is the chosen "Judge of mankind" as he was in EoE and the main protagonist, if Shinji didn't want "4th Impact" then even IF the Gates of Guf HAD stayed open, SEELE would have still failed...possibly AGAIN if this is a continuation and not a true Rebuild.

We don't know the full effects of an impact in the Rebuild universe yet, so that's mostly guesswork.

Kaworu and Shinji combined almost caused AND PREVENTED 4th(or another attempt at 3rd) Impact.

Then why didn't it stop before Mari took action?

Now, what do we call female dogs?

Resorting to gratuitous sexist insults does not improve any argument.

[Kouzou]

The point is rather that he didn't, and Shinji went ahead regardless!


We don't know the full effects of an impact in the Rebuild universe yet, so that's mostly guesswork.


Then why didn't it stop before Mari took action?


Resorting to gratuitous sexist insults does not improve any argument.

1. Kaworu's death lowered the speed at which it could progress and took him out of the game as a pawn for the Angel's or SEELE.
2. Assuming the Rebuild universe is separate from the series, we know that it is so far apparently the same Human Instrumentality Project seeking oneness and completion. We know Shinji is the judge in this new Gospel. We know he has a connection to an Eva with the fruit of life, and he, being a Lilim/Human has the Tree of Knowledge's power by simply being intelligent. Kaworu merely was worried, but Shinji was desperate to fix things.
3. It didn't finish either. We don't know how long the process is, only that Shinji is the overseer/judge. It is all up to him, not Mari. If Mari hadn't ejected Shinji, Asuka would have or Rei or Shinji himself. And once again, Shinji can resist if he has a the will to. Kaworu's shocking death took away that will.
4. Mari is a modern day servant in a degrading status having no choice over matters but following orders (she is Asuka's lap dog currently, we saw this throughout 3.0). Is she angry, aggressive, overbearing, self righteous, and fan service? Yep, my ad hominem against her stands She acted as a dog and played fetch. I will not bow to political correctness when the situation warrants the truth about her Remember, this thread is based on SUBJECTIVE TRUTH(Why I Don't Like Mari), not a formal debate.

[Bagheera]

The fact that it is not a formal debate does not mean the things you are saying are not flatly wrong. The fact is that Kaworu did not stop 4I, while Mari clearly did. It is also true that she has more autonomy than most other characters in the series, the only real exception being Kaji. She is far from being Asuka's lapdog -- she is her subordinate in a military organization, but that is not the same thing. She clearly knows more about what's going on behind the scenes than the other characters do, and that both enables her within the framework of the story and allows her to serve the narrative purpose of revealing things to the audience that otherwise wouldn't come to light.

So no, not a debate, but you're wrong anyway.

[pwhodges]

1. Kaworu's death lowered the speed at which it could progress

How do you know that?

we know that it is so far apparently the same Human Instrumentality Project seeking oneness and completion. We know Shinji is the judge in this new Gospel. We know he has a connection to an Eva with the fruit of life, and he, being a Lilim/Human has the Tree of Knowledge's power by simply being intelligent.

You're reaching like anything here. The tree of knowledge hasn't been mentioned, nor Shinji's position in Instrumentality, nor any detail of the aim of Instrumentality for that matter.

4. Mari is a modern day servant in a degrading status having no choice over matters but following orders (she is Asuka's lap dog currently, we saw this throughout 3.0). Is she angry, aggressive, overbearing, self righteous, and fan service? Yep, my ad hominem against her stands She acted as a dog and played fetch.

The film shows her as no more a servant than anyone else. And not insulting servants is not merely "Political Correctness", but simple humanity.

[Kouzou]

The fact that it is not a formal debate does not mean the things you are saying are not flatly wrong. The fact is that Kaworu did not stop 4I, while Mari clearly did. It is also true that she has more autonomy than most other characters in the series, the only real exception being Kaji. She is far from being Asuka's lapdog -- she is her subordinate in a military organization, but that is not the same thing. She clearly knows more about what's going on behind the scenes than the other characters do, and that both enables her within the framework of the story and allows her to serve the narrative purpose of revealing things to the audience that otherwise wouldn't come to light.

So no, not a debate, but you're wrong anyway.

1. Without Kaworu, 4th would not have started, but it also would not have ended. Kaworu's death shocked Shinji and took his desire to try and use the spears. All Mari did was something Shinji allowed her to do, and 3/4th Impact is not over, look at the planet, it has already partially occurred. SEELE and Gendo probably already planned that Shinji would stop mid-way again. It is almost certainly occurring over and over with subtle changes(remember Kaworu in the first Rebuild movie?) Without Kaworu dying, Shinji would have continued, and would not have allowed ejection. This is almost certain.
2. Mari is working with Asuka and Misato obeying them because they have resources she needs. Maybe she will betray them with a secret agenda, maybe she will take Shinji's virginity this time or kill Misato, hard to say(no pun intended), but until then, she stays fan service
3. Asuka does what she wants regardless of Misato, she serves Asuka, not Misato ultimately. Therefore no continued chain of command, therefore lap dog
4. She does have some hidden agenda and info, but for now she is not unique. The story is about Shinji and Asuka with Rei and Misato in the backdrop truthfully. Even though Rei is in the lead this time, Asuka probrably will dominate the love story narrative again. Mari does 2 things: make guys happy(the main demographic) with yet more sexy pilot goodness, and make the minority of fans that are female happy in having an alternate to Asuka. The female warrior thing was never meant to be realistic either, but as usual is a sexual fantasy of the young male audience. It is always about love between a man and a woman in Seinen. Even in Shonen, there are love stories. Vegeta and Bulma, Goku and Chi Chi, Gohan and Videl from Dragon Ball(Z and Super too...I will not mention the evil of GT lolz). Kenshiro and Yuria from Fist of the North Star. Naruto and Hinata from Naruto with Sakura and Sasuke(even Asuma and Rei eyed girl), even Bleach with Ichigo and Orihimie(or Rukia, your pick). Same base formula that has always worked, with rare exception. Personally, I ship Mari with Toji.
5. Misato told the audience in the series and EoE, plus Ritsuko. They can always do what Mari is doing, she is the confident, know it all very much like us who have watched the show over a dozen times
6. We simply do not agree. Only the 4th film will solve the debate to some degree at least. I don't see Mari beating Asuka or Rei for Shinji.

How do you know that?


You're reaching like anything here. The tree of knowledge hasn't been mentioned, nor Shinji's position in Instrumentality, nor any detail of the aim of Instrumentality for that matter.


The film shows her as no more a servant than anyone else. And not insulting servants is not merely "Political Correctness", but simple humanity.

1. Did it not start falling from the sky and losing power(Shinji's current Eva)? I Shinji not the protagonist and decider? Is not Rei loyal to Shinji ultimately? Remember her keeping his Walkman thing? Remember her sacrifice? Remember how she is drawn to be with him, one way or another? Remember Yui's soul and being part of the Architecture of deciding mankind in the face of the Angels? Angels test mankind. You fail: Sodom and Gamora lol
2. Fair enough, but the tree of knowledge is implied heavily. How can you have Adam, Lilith, Rei being like Eve and the fruit of life mentioned without the knowledge? Again, we will see, but my theory is well funded here
3. Why is Shinji the only one who can be used as a pilot and Gendo makes him so key? Yui would naturally want her son(who is what she did it for) to be the instrumentor. Would you care so much about another offspring that you had not had biologically or adoptive? Yui is a mother. She is still in Unit 01 and influences everything. Gendo talks to her even.
4. Human Instrumentality might go a different path, but I doubt it will diverge much. Shinji is always the key, why else would Gendo need him so badly despite acting otherwise? Gendo and Fuyutsuki said it was all going according to plan. Even Shinji getting close to Rei. It is there game of Go.