Can you stop Gendo and SEELE's plans and defeat the Angels?

[LordThaeon]

snip

From your point of view. But feel free to keep it.

[Gob Hobblin]

Bags has a point; everybody on the show had the talents you described, but they still weren't able to put the pieces together themselves.

[LordThaeon]

Bags has a point; everybody on the show had the talents you described, but they still weren't able to put the pieces together themselves.

Hence why it would be extremely difficult, but not impossible.

In fact, I didn't see anything in the show that was stopping Kaji or Misato from leaking information to the public and turning the world against SEELE apart from them not thinking about it for some reason.

I suppose rather SEELE and Gendo's plans could be stopped depends on how powerful you believe that SEELE is. Considering what I saw on the show, SEELE doesn't seem smart enough to cover all angles and thus, there would be opportunity to stop them if the plot hadn't railroaded SEELE into winning despite their incompetence.

[Bagheera]

From your point of view. But feel free to keep it.

It's not a matter of my point of view, dude; it's what the show actually shows us. The counters you describe don't match up with what we're given in the show at all.

In fact, I didn't see anything in the show that was stopping Kaji or Misato from leaking information to the public and turning the world against SEELE apart from them not thinking about it for some reason.

How about "they didn't have a clue as to what was going on until matters were well past the point where public opinion was worth a damn"? Exposing the bad guys when you're in the midst of the apocalypse is kinda pointless.

I suppose rather SEELE and Gendo's plans could be stopped depends on how powerful you believe that SEELE is. Considering what I saw on the show, SEELE doesn't seem smart enough to cover all angles and thus, there would be opportunity to stop them if the plot hadn't railroaded SEELE into winning despite their incompetence.

Seeing as how they did cover all angles (or at least, all that they could influence), that seems to be a rather spurious notion.

[Gob Hobblin]

In fact, I didn't see anything in the show that was stopping Kaji or Misato from leaking information to the public and turning the world against SEELE apart from them not thinking about it for some reason.

You're saying this like it never occurred to SEELE that someone might actually do that. They've been keeping secrets for a very, very long time. You'd have to have a true, magic bullet to be able to reveal something that would turn the world en masse against them.

Besides, if they did release it, what would differentiate what they say from the varied crackpots out there raving about conspiracy theories? If they do that, they're just disgruntled employees with mental issues (who also make themselves convenient targets to disappear).

[LordThaeon]

You're saying this like it never occurred to SEELE that someone might actually do that. They've been keeping secrets for a very, very long time. You'd have to have a true, magic bullet to be able to reveal something that would turn the world en masse against them.

Besides, if they did release it, what would differentiate what they say from the varied crackpots out there raving about conspiracy theories? If they do that, they're just disgruntled employees with mental issues (who also make themselves convenient targets to disappear).

Still not hearing how it's impossible.

And remember that SEELE are the ones who trusted the crux of their plans for instrumentality with a man who they know is going to betray them.

They're far from omnipresent and all-knowing.

[Reichu]

With a level of confidence like that, I'm left wondering why you're not out there effortlessly fixing all the utterly mundane problems in our non-fiction world... Better yet, you should go tell all of the people who are struggling to make the world a better place that they're not doing it right and to try harder.

[LordThaeon]

With a level of confidence like that, I'm left wondering why you're not out there effortlessly fixing all the utterly mundane problems in our non-fiction world... Better yet, you should go tell all of the people who are struggling to make the world a better place that they're not doing it right and to try harder.

Personal passive-aggressive insults already?

We're talking about an anime, not the real world. Stay on topic.

[Gob Hobblin]

Well, if you want to say what's possible in the anime, then look at End of Evangelion: there was a hint of rebellion against SEELE. A hint. What happened?

...lots and lots of bloodshed. SEELE didn't hesitate for a SECOND to sic its proxies onto NERV when they felt they could not longer control the situation. Frankly, the fact that Instrumentality happened the way it did at all is a sheer miracle.

[LordThaeon]

Well, if you want to say what's possible in the anime, then look at End of Evangelion: there was a hint of rebellion against SEELE. A hint. What happened?

...lots and lots of bloodshed. SEELE didn't hesitate for a SECOND to sic its proxies onto NERV when they felt they could not longer control the situation. Frankly, the fact that Instrumentality happened the way it did at all is a sheer miracle.

Only after going through various checkpoints where things only went in SEELE's favor due to a series of miracles beyond their control.

[Gob Hobblin]

What checkpoints? The Angels? So they let some other jerks do their work for them, knowing that they might get betrayed but confident (with fair justification, I might add) that they can handle the situation if it gets too far out of hand. Frankly, it was a great stroke of luck that they DIDN'T succeed.

[NemZ]

Yes, but from a perspective of within the show it's the same thing. You're talking about making world-changing events in spite of well funded, connected, and respected people with few scruples having no reason at all to let it go any way but theirs. On top of that literally nobody knows shit about any of it without being hip-deep in it themselves.

1. Seele CLEARLY didn't trust Gendo and he kept his job right to the end.

2. Nobody knew the eva series was even in existence until it was almost done except the people making them, and they were pretty busy with that whole Kaworu situation at the time to actually do anything about it... not that they had any way to do anything about them even if they wanted to.

3. Telling people the truth is hard when nobody knows it besides those in on the scheme, and as Gob said even if you somehow did there's no reason for people to take you seriously.

4. I'm betting that killing the most important men in the world might be a little difficult to pull off. Especially when even Gendo probably doesn't know who all of them are, so good luck sorting that all out.

5. Yeah sure, just destroy a bunch of stuff that's locked away in a secret vault almost nobody knows anything about that defended by a security force, automated defenses, and two kaiju-scale living weapons. It's not like the JSSDF didn't try that and fail or anything.

[Gob Hobblin]

NemZ hit on a couple of points that hinge around the same idea that are very important: the men leading SEELE are not secret individuals. They are public figures, who are respected and well known in the world. That shields them in a lot of ways, and makes normal methods of attacking or countering them (with the resources that the main characters have, as well as the knowledge they have) literally impossible.

[NemZ]

Exactly. They aren't living in the shadows... it's just their organization that isn't public knowledge. You start rambling conspiracies about generals, industry tycoons, mass media moguls, international philanthropists and whatever else they're commonly known as in their day jobs all being in a secret religious doomsday cabal and you will absolutely and rightly be labeled a nutjob.

Also it's likely that only Keel actually knows who they all are, and with his almost limitless resources and justified paranoia he's sure to be the single most well-protected person on the planet. He probably lives in a nuke-proof bunker a mile below some random compound staffed entirely by cyborg ninjas that looks like a typical block in any other city.

[pwhodges]

Personal passive-aggressive insults already?

She's right, though.

We're talking about an anime, not the real world. Stay on topic.

What is the topic, though - Evangelion, in which these things actually do not happen, or each person's headcanon/fanfic, in which they do because it's actually a different world? That's why arguments like this can never be resolved - they're fundamentally meaningless; even if the true subject is "what changes need to made to the fictional world for this scenario to work", there's still going to be unlimited disagreement over what is realistic (and whether this matters).

[Kendrix]

Still not hearing how it's impossible.

And remember that SEELE are the ones who trusted the crux of their plans for instrumentality with a man who they know is going to betray them.
.

They do discuss that they had no choice but to do this as he was the only one with the required skills, whatever those are, and took precautions to keep him in check, such as sending Kaji and preparing the EVA series to carry out their will.

They DID storm NERV and have their EVAs seize unit one.

[LordThaeon]

She's right, though.

What is the topic, though - Evangelion, in which these things actually do not happen, or each person's headcanon/fanfic, in which they do because it's actually a different world? That's why arguments like this can never be resolved - they're fundamentally meaningless; even if the true subject is "what changes need to made to the fictional world for this scenario to work", there's still going to be unlimited disagreement over what is realistic (and whether this matters).

1) No she's not. It was an invalid and off-topic oversimplification and hidden insult based solely on the fact that I have a different interpretation and opinion about an anime. And is not productive to a discussion.

2) "What If" Discussions can be seen as meaningless, but I disagree that they are fundamentally meaningless. There's nothing wrong with discussing how things could have turned out if a symbolic pebble were thrown into the lake or if events that seem inevitable actually are.

For instance, despite the insistence and assertions of others on this topic, I don't believe that 3I was inevitable nor do I believe that SEELE's plans were fail-safe. I could go into full-detail as to why and point out the numerous holes and risks that SEELE took that only worked because of luck, inaction of the cast or plot contrivance, but I'm not going to bother because the argument would fall on deaf ears due to differing perspectives on the anime called Evangelion.

Not to say that those perspectives are invalid or wrong, just that I don't feel like getting brow-beaten into accepting someone else's speculation and opinion as fact above my own.

[Reichu]

1) No she's not. It was an invalid and off-topic oversimplification and hidden insult based solely on the fact that I have a different interpretation and opinion about an anime.

My comment was based on the fact that you're presenting these grandiose plans as not only plausible, but EASY. What's there to discuss if you treat very complicated issues like they can be solved with the wave of a (laughably omnipotent) self-insert's hand? I don't feel off base in suggesting that you put your overconfidence to better use; trying to apply it to real problems would get it deflated to manageable proportions in no time.

It's like talking to somebody about politics, and they pull out a big list of everything that has to be done in order to "fix" the big issues, without giving the slightest indication that they've put any thought into how the items on the list would actually be carried out.

[LordThaeon]

snip

And the straw-manning debases you from the moment that you assert that I said that my suggestions were EASY.

They were ideas off the top of my head that I came up with based on observed holes in SEELE's plot and execution and since their plan only worked due to luck and plot contrivance, then I believe that there is a chance to stop it though it is a slim one.

I could bother going into detail, but you've lost my interest. Later.

[Bagheera]

It would really help the discussion if you'd stop being so darn combative.

Past that, the main problem here is that some of the things you're claiming are problems aren't, and the "solutions" you propose aren't workable. For example, you claim Gendo's incompetent because he didn't have better options for his pilots, but ignore the fact that that was entirely out of his control -- available pilots are determined by the souls within the Evas, and that left him with exactly two optiions in Japan. He attempted to make Rei the primary pilot, but Unit 00 wen't berserk -- again, an event that was entirely out of his control. So he called upon the only option he had left, an option he didn't want to use because he wanted to keep his son out of this mess.

There is no incompetence here. It's not a matter of interpretation, it's just plain fact. Similar observations can be made for most, if not all, of your other arguments. As another example, you claim Seele only got as far as they did based on sheer luck, when that's obviously not the case -- the show makes it abundantly clear that Seele had multiple contingency plans in place, and were prepared to proceed given any number of potential scenarios. The Eva series was not luck, and if Lilith hadn't intervened everything would have gone exactly as planned. Even with Lilith's involvement things still went as planned -- the only spanner in the works was Lilith's rebellion vs. Gendo, which is something they couldn't have anticipated. It was sheer luck that their plan was foiled, not vice-versa.

Basically, you seem to have an awful lot of assumptions about the show and its story that don't stand up to scrutiny, as you can see by the numerous dissenting opinions you've encountered here. And we aren't dissenting because we're some sort of hivemind or anything -- we find stuff to argue about all the time. But you seem to be operating from a position of pride and ignorance, which leads you to assume all sorts of things are obvious when in reality they're anything but. I'd advise you to step back, examine your assumptions, and listen to the people who are disagreeing with you. They're not doing it just to be dicks.