The Kaworu-Katsuragi Connection?

cat42 · Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject:

zeaven wrote:

...so we have to create content for ourselves...

That reminds me, I found out about Beyond Eden's Shores last nihgt, and the picture of "Barb" as Santa. Something about that makes me very happy, but I'm not sure what...
:D

**Reichu** · Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject:

Hmm, seems things are looking up for the remaining 3/5 of the material...

Raw, your position comes across as ineffably bizarre: With the exception of the "Anno's True Intention" (TM) talk from the Reground thread, the only times I've seen you actively participate in discussions (and play a role other than Vehement Reichu Skeptic ^TM) here, said discussions were about NGE Arcana, and even involved your own speculations.

The case for what the show is or isn't about -- and I did hear your rant the first time -- is heavy and convoluted enough that it requires its own thread. But I've been there, done that; I'm not particularly interested in trodding that ground again. If anybody wants to debate the intertwined issues of 'true intention', what types of analysis and discussion are "valid"/justifiable, blah blah blah, please do it somewhere else. If this sort of argumentation forms the body of your objections, Raw, then I don't think there's much more you can say without getting redundant.

Rather than general and vague 'arguments against everything' and various other rhetoric, I would prefer to see the direct addressing of what has been presented, without any kind of antagonism/sarcasm/etc. I've put a lot of work into this, and everything you've said so far, Rawinder, is stuff I've heard before, which is disappointing. Do you have anything new and productive to contribute?

Quote:

Reichu wrote:

Loaded Questions = B.A.D.

When a so-called skeptic asks a question, and you purposely avoid it, that only breeds more skepticism. It's pretty much the opposite of what you want to do when presenting a theory.

The loaded question is an easily-spotted form of logical fallacy. I don't answer them because that's a sucker's game.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

_________________
-- Rachel K. Clark (a.k.a. "Reichu")
Avatar: Dr. Facilier (from The Princess and the Frog)
Every time I get over you you say something to make me love you again. -- ZapalacX

felineki · Israfel Joined: 29 Jul 2006

Rawinder wrote:

NGE is complicated, and there's a lot to solve and get out of it. But it's not The Da Vinci Code, and it shouldn't be treated as such (e.g., a frame-by-frame analysis). Anno wanted his fans to get outside more and not be so introverted, Tsurumaki wanted the fans to move on. Spending the last 10 years going over the show with a fine tooth comb and comparing the eye rolling patterns of certain characters is NOT what Anno and co. wanted.

And that's exactly why they DIDN'T hide a Tree of Life in the corner of one single frame of the 2nd Impact animation, amirite?

cat42 · Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject:

i've seen the frame posted here, but can anyone tell me where it is in the series?

Shin-seiki · Minion Joined: 25 Aug 2004

cat42 wrote:

i've seen the frame posted here, but can anyone tell me where it is in the series?

In the 2I segment at the start of Death; the first frame of the cut where Adam spreads wings. It's not in the equivalent scene in episode 12.

**Reichu** · Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject:

cat42 wrote:

i've seen the frame posted here, but can anyone tell me where it is in the series?

Beginning of DEATH, shot where Adam spreads her wings, very first frame. Haven't checked the visibility in the crappy original release, but it's easy to see in the Renewal version.
[Argh, Shin-seiki beat me to it!]

I'll just do a repost for the hell of it.

http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5773765#post5773765

teh Reichu wrote:

Shin-seiki found this when doing a screencap mission for me, and he basically gave me permission to unveil it. ... DEATH, the overhauled Wings of Light scene. Here's the very first frame of the shot.

Notice anything? To quote sempai (hope you don't mind):

Shin-seiki wrote:

Woah! What the hell is that in the top left corner?!

It seems like it should be some sort of secret clue, being there for just one frame, you know? Anyway, I know this doesn't make any sense really, but the first thing that flashed in my mind when I noticed it was that it looked like a bit like the twiggy end of the Tree of Life in #26'.

I was professedly incredulous in the "WTF?" sort of way at first, until...

And then, once I "admitted defeat"...

Shin-seiki wrote:

I can only say that the connection wasn't something I had to consciously think about, rather it just popped into my head as a sort of 'right brain' intuition. A lot of NGE works that way, and consequently people that insist on everything being spelled out for them are never going to get anywhere in terms of truly understanding what is going on. Also, the fact, that what may be a crucial clue to what was really going in 2I should be hidden as an obscure image that is around for one frame (!), really puts the lie to those claims that Anno-tachi never intended for us to examine the series so closely; this thingy is something that is revealed only when one is step-framing thru the cut, and, needless to say, it didn't draw itself, it was put there deliberately as a clue.

"I bow down to thee."

Anyway, have fun getting your brain around that one, cuz I sure haven't!

...and, as the current canon stands, more than likely won't.

I never read/saw The Da Vinci Code.

"Post-modern"... "Weird for the sake of being weird"? Seems to describe the show itself to a T.

(Magokoro o, kimi ni, if you know what I mean.)

_________________
-- Rachel K. Clark (a.k.a. "Reichu")
Avatar: Dr. Facilier (from The Princess and the Frog)
Every time I get over you you say something to make me love you again. -- ZapalacX

cat42 · Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject:

In the crappy old release it's there for 2 frames, though I don't think there is as much of it shown. I'm not sure because I can't find a still of it. Gimmie a bit, andI'll take a screen shot.

EDIT++++

Is it just me, or is Mangle's transfer slightly crooked?

close up

**ObsessiveMathsFreak** · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject:

This new (to me at least) information needs a new thread. Fork please.

_________________
May The Maths Be With You.

slothen · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject:

From what I've read and seen around these boards, you can't really take what Anno says at face value. I'd throw out more unqualified assumptions about Anno, but that would belong in a different thread.

_________________
MAL Profile

**Reichu** · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject:

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:

This new (to me at least) information needs a new thread. Fork please.

Missed it the first few times, eh? ;;p

What kind of fork? A thread about the discrepancies between Anno-tachi's words and Anno-tachi's works? ("Which should we trust...?") A more traditional one about the fucked-upness of 2I? the Tree of Life? the Spear of Longinus? What?

Am I still gonna get that follow-up to your rant?

slothen wrote:

From what I've read and seen around these boards, you can't really take what Anno says at face value. I'd throw out more unqualified assumptions about Anno, but that would belong in a different thread.

I'd be interested in hearing them. (In a different thread.)

cat42 wrote:

...I found out about Beyond Eden's Shores last nihgt, and the picture of "Barb" as Santa. Something about that makes me very happy, but I'm not sure what... :D

Santa Barb and creations of that ilk make some fanboys happy in ways I'm not at liberty to discuss...

Some time after that initial drawing, Barb took to taming wild reindeer (the naughtier, the better). She is currently missing part of her right hand.

_________________
-- Rachel K. Clark (a.k.a. "Reichu")
Avatar: Dr. Facilier (from The Princess and the Frog)
Every time I get over you you say something to make me love you again. -- ZapalacX

**ObsessiveMathsFreak** · Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject:

Reichu wrote:

Missed it the first few times, eh? ;;p

Indeed. Anyway, I was just going to add that perhaps the tendrils in the frame, instead of being an incredibly obsure teaser, might be the remnent of a longer scene, perhaps with the lance/ToL flying outwards from the explosion, which was afterwards cut. Or perhaps they were shots intended to be used for a third impact scene, but recycled for the second impact flashback instead.

Actually, now as I look at it, the tendrils do bear a good resemblence to the "veins" of Adam's wings that we see later in the scene. We could be looking at a simple blooper here, like that fingerprint in #03.

Reichu wrote:

Am I still gonna get that follow-up to your rant?

All in good time. There's a lot to go over, but I should have something ready soon for part A.

_________________
May The Maths Be With You.

cat42 · Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject:

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:

...We could be looking at a simple blooper here, like that fingerprint in #03.

Where in ep 3?

**Reichu** · Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:12 am Post subject:

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:

Actually, now as I look at it, the tendrils do bear a good resemblence to the "veins" of Adam's wings that we see later in the scene.

...you really think so?

Quote:

All in good time. There's a lot to go over, but I should have something ready soon for part A.

I should note that undergoing a critique of Exhibit A by itself (without all of the follow-ups) may have certain fatal flaws. A lot of the material was intentionally rhetoric (just kinda there for the sake of being there) and/or 'teaser', that is, anticipating stuff to come. (Or, in some cases, I really wasn't sure.) Exhibit B is a real mess that I may have to revise later; there are certain elements I hadn't given much thought to until I actually sat down to compose my posts. Just a forewarning. But I'm interested to hear what you have to say, all the same.

(And, ya, I really have been working on future installments over here.)

_________________
-- Rachel K. Clark (a.k.a. "Reichu")
Avatar: Dr. Facilier (from The Princess and the Frog)
Every time I get over you you say something to make me love you again. -- ZapalacX

**ObsessiveMathsFreak** · Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject:

Reichu wrote:

Am I still gonna get that follow-up to your rant?

Ask and ye shall recieve.

OK, Part A was the Misato-Kaworu connection. The gist of it was largely that Misato's intense interest in Kaworu over the course of the episode was a hint towards a deeper connection between the two. However, let's review this interest for a moment.

Probably the most revealing snippet as to the true reason for Misato's interest is the following.

Reichu wrote:

MISATO (MONO):
And today, Asuka's replacement, the Fifth Child, arrives.
Everything is just too perfect.

It's clear that even before Kaworu arrives in Tokyo 3, Misato's mind is troubled by his presence. Her doubts here are also voiced during a scene dealing with possible treachery. Her exact word used her is "scenario", that phrase that occurs so often in relation to the "Great Game" being played out by SEELE, Gendou, et al. I would strongly suggest that it is her suspicions as to his part amid the "Great Game" that make Misato so interested in Kaworu.

Let's look for a moment at Misato's reasons for suspicion.

Quote:

1: ( #18 "If we wanted to, we could destroy the world.")
2: (#22 "So, what was the real cause of Second Impact?")

At least as far back as episode #15, Misato became aware that not all was as it seemed at Nerv. There's good evidence she was aware of the possible apocalyptic plans for Nerv quite early on(1). But she, much like ourselves, has only pieces and fragments, but not the whole picture (2). Kaji may not have told her everything he knew before he died(see their conversation in #17), but certainly after reading his information in #23', Misato is aware of the treachery inherent in both Nerv and the Instrumentality Project, as we have:

Quote:

Humanity, having already reached its limit as a colony of flawed and separate entities,
will be artificially evolved into a perfect, singular lifeform by the Instrumentality Project.
Sounds like an ideal world. And to achieve this, the Committee plan to use not Adam or Nerv, but Eva.
Just like Kaji-kun predicted.

Misato knows something big is coming. Quite aside from any concerns about Kaworu himself, the arrival of the backup pilot is a source of worry for her. She does not know what this pilots role in the "Great Game" is. He is an unknown factor, introduced suddenly and very close to the advent of the Instrumentality Project. Her primary worry here is that Kaworu's loyalties are not to Nerv and saving humanity, but to SEELE and the Instrumentality project. His arrival coinciding with Asuka's retrieval and his extraordinary abilities only further fuel her suspicions towards him.

Misato expects treachery from Kaworu, but only of the conventional kind. This is confirmed by her aside during the descent scheme when she is informed that Unit-02 is unmanned

Quote:

Misato: "Unmanned? Isn't it the Fifth?"

Misato knows about the real plans for Instrumentality and the Evas. She also knows that SEELE, etc, will eventually have to make a move to sieze the Evas and/or remove Nerv opposition. She also has very good reason (the timing with Asuka) to suspect that Kaworu's arrival has been arranged by SEELE. As a result, she concludes,correctly, that Kaworu is SEELEs agent.

Her intense interest in him then, is a result of her anticipation of his treachery, acting in the interests of SEELE. She expected him to make a move of this kind, seizing an Eva. This is the reason she tails and watches him. And this is how the episode presents it. No hidden motives required.

As to the link between the lakeside scene and the Terminal Dogma scene, it's worth noting that the roles of all the respective characters in each are substantially different, as are the scenes themselves. There's not a lot to really make Misato's reaction here anything more than surprise at Kaworu's spooky abilities, at least, not in comparision to Rei in Terminal Dogma, who is anything but a mere observer here. The link here is results more for Kaworu's mannerisms more so than themeatic considerations.

One other thing I'd like to point out on the topic of comparing Kaworu's effect on characters. Zoom out for a moment on the whole episode. Kaworu is the so called Angel of "Free Will", and during this episode we do see characters exercising their free wills, or more correctly "breaking ranks". Asuka running off, Gendou's conversation with Yui, Misato and Hyuuga accessing secret records, Shinji leaving home, Rei going to Terminal Dogma, and even Kaworu himself choosing his own death. A lot of scenes and characters can be linked in this episode, but it is through an overall theme rather than for any hidden reason.

I've got some thoughts on part B, but that's for another post.

_________________
May The Maths Be With You.

Rawinder · Lilith Joined: 17 Jul 2006

Reichu wrote:

Raw, your position comes across as ineffably bizarre: With the exception of the "Anno's True Intention" (TM) talk from the Reground thread, the only times I've seen you actively participate in discussions (and play a role other than Vehement Reichu Skeptic ^TM) here, said discussions were about NGE Arcana, and even involved your own speculations.

Okay? I can theorize about NGE, but it's usually building off something else. For example, I speculate about what really happened in 2I as opposed to which Angel is male and which is female.

Reichu wrote:

The case for what the show is or isn't about -- and I did hear your rant the first time -- is heavy and convoluted enough that it requires its own thread.

Not really. In fact, it's probably one of the more concise and obvious points of the series.

Reichu wrote:

But I've been there, done that; I'm not particularly interested in trodding that ground again.

I can tell.

Reichu wrote:

Rather than general and vague 'arguments against everything' and various other rhetoric, I would prefer to see the direct addressing of what has been presented, without any kind of antagonism/sarcasm/etc. I've put a lot of work into this, and everything you've said so far, Rawinder, is stuff I've heard before, which is disappointing. Do you have anything new and productive to contribute?

I thought was waiting until you were done? The only reason I started posting again was because of the "arrogant skeptic" shot. I may've gone a little overboard in responding, but that's because I find it ludicrous to be accused of missing some underlying theme or message here when in fact it's just the opposite.

Reichu wrote:

The loaded question is an easily-spotted form of logical fallacy. I don't answer them because that's a sucker's game.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

I asked what it is that separates your theory from the typical NGE overanalysis. That's not a loaded question because I'm not accusing you of overanalyzing, but asking what the distinction between this and overanalyzing is. You could answer in two ways: you can compare it to overanalysis or you can contrast it. It's not like your (link's) wife beating example, in which both answers box you into a corner.

**Reichu** · Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject:

Rawinder wrote:

Okay? I can theorize about NGE, but it's usually building off something else. For example, I speculate about what really happened in 2I as opposed to which Angel is male and which is female.

I was referring to this:

Quote:

NGE is complicated, and there's a lot to solve and get out of it. But it's not The Da Vinci Code, and it shouldn't be treated as such (e.g., a frame-by-frame analysis). Anno wanted his fans to get outside more and not be so introverted, Tsurumaki wanted the fans to move on. Spending the last 10 years going over the show with a fine tooth comb and comparing the eye rolling patterns of certain characters is NOT what Anno and co. wanted.

Well, I dunno about you, but the minutiae of, say, Second Impact don't seem to have any relevance whatsoever to the central message of the show, and speculating about them certainly does require a fine tooth comb and a blissful disregard for Tsurumaki's desire. We're all sinners here, and you'll be sharing a big, flaming pit with us in whatever Hell awaits those who can't just watch NGE and move on.

On the plus side, Anno, Tsurumaki. Masayuki, Ohtsuki, and many others will be there, too. That'll make eternal damnation worth it, in my book.

Quote:

Reichu wrote:

But I've been there, done that; I'm not particularly interested in trodding that ground again.

I can tell.

I take it you missed the invisible irony tags? Also, "RTFA". Context matters.

Quote:

I asked what it is that separates your theory from the typical NGE overanalysis.

The way you ask your questions could possibly use a little work.

...'What separates it from typical NGE overanalysis?' Well, I'm not really sure. Maybe nothing. (Except that, as Reichu's overanalysis, it would be inherently better than anyone else's. </irony>) I'll have to purge myself of my demons before I can find out.

_________________
-- Rachel K. Clark (a.k.a. "Reichu")
Avatar: Dr. Facilier (from The Princess and the Frog)
Every time I get over you you say something to make me love you again. -- ZapalacX

Szmitten · Israfel Joined: 06 Sep 2006

Less talking, MOAR evidence.

slothen · Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:47 am Post subject:

Szmitten wrote:

Less talking, MOAR evidence.

This needed saying twice.

_________________
MAL Profile

**ObsessiveMathsFreak** · Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject:

OK, I think part B is finished, so here's a few thoughts. Part B was the Kaji-Kaworu connection. Unlike part A, the connections and parallels between these two characters are in fact quite strong. But I'd like to present here an interpretation of these connections outside the K^4 theory.

Let's start with the biggest.

Quote:

Two cuts depicting 'martyr' characters smiling moments before death, both redone for the NPC, producing a similarity that was most certainly not there before? Kaji and Kaworu's facial expressions have been tweaked to become essentially the same – linking them visually once again, at crucial moments for both.

This link is unquestionable. It's beyond doubt that the director has intended to draw a strong parallel between the deaths of these two characters. Even without the redone directors cut, it was a glaringly obvious connection.

The director has obviously decided to give these two characters such a similar "exuent" for a reason. I would say this has to do with Anno killing off two characters who are too "pure", or at least, too mentally stable to exist in Tokyo-3. They are in some sense, the wise-men of the series, giving very sound advice to the lost and lonely, but they themselves being completely self-confident and unburdened by the past. These are two characters who are looking forward, not backwards. In retrospect, they had to go. What's important here also is to look at the effects of their deaths. They each precipitate a further crisis in the characters closely connected to them; Kaji->Misato,Asuka. Kaworu->Shinji. It's a big part of the downward spiral the series takes.

Numerous parallels exist between the two. One big point to note however, is that these two are temporally separated in the series. They never share a scene, not even in either complementation. Bear this in mind, as well as considering that these numerous parallels may not hint at some unstated nascient connection in their characters.

The other point brought up I'd like to talk about is the connections between these two pairs of scenes.

Quote:

KAJI(#08 ):
Well, of course I do. You're famous in our business. The Third Children,
who piloted an Eva in battle with no training.

KAWORU(#24):
Everyone knows your name. I don't mean to be rude,
but I think you should be a little more aware of your position.

There is a connection here, but look for the obvious. The most direct similarity between these two scene pairs is that Shinji is in them all. So let's look at them again.

In the first pair, we have a character, on first meeting Shinji, reminding him of his fame and ability, and moreover Shinji taking the complement well. In the second, we have Shinji obviously "sleeping over", with the same two characters, but during each scene we see Shinji opening up to each and speaking quite candidly with them, especially with Kaworu.

What we have here, is Anno finally giving Shinji, the fatherless orphan surrounded by female role models and immature friends, male role models. Moreover, male role models who have high regard for him. This isn't something to be considered only in passing. The normally distant Shinji warms very quickly to both of them, and is uncharacteristically confident around them. He takes away quite a good impression of Kaji, even despite his innuendo towards Misato;

Quote:

Shinji(#08 ): He seems to be rather lively... Kaji-san, I mean.

And of course he warms to Kaworu enough to leave Misato's and seek shelter with him instead.

An important point along these here is the common topic of conversation brought up in the "sleepover" scenes.

Quote:

SHINJI(#18 ): What's my father like?

SHINJI(#24):But I did hate my father.

I don't believe that this is a mere coincidence. Gendou is brought up very deliberately in both cases by Shinji, in a conversation with a mature male he trusts. I think the presentation of both of these characters in a "confidant" role with Shinji is very deliberate, and something to ponder over, especially with regard to his non-relationship with Gendou. Shinji's relationship with Kaji especially is I think, an often overlooked factor in analysis of the show.

Anyway, alternative thoughts on these connections. In paticular the "male role model" connection betwen these two for Shinji. Though I'm aware that may conflict with another of Reichu's thoughts on these matters.

_________________
May The Maths Be With You.

**Reichu** · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject:

PART IV

The Little Quirks (continued...)

Now, as if that mind-numbingly suspicious design decision wasn't enough, here is another bizarre coincidence to inundate the senses!

Both Kaji and Kaworu die with their hands in their pockets! Forsooth, it be true!

Right before he looks his assassin in the eye, look where Kaji's hands are...

And, well, following the sleepover scene, Kaworu's hands are not once removed from his pockets, rather bizarrely. So, of course, they remain in his pockets at the moment of death. The last time they are sighted:

This parallel is, of course, of incredible significance – perhaps the most significant of any yet highlighted! If you asked me why, however, I wouldn't be able to tell you. Fanwank something to your liking.

Actually, Kaji and Kaworu share a general fondness for the hands-in-pockets gesture, and they can both be sighted multiple times engaging in it, far beyond the point of "enemy action" – both within the show, and without. Not to be brushed aside, considering how much enemy action these two are already guilty of! To save myself the trouble of posting lots of pictures individually, I went to the trouble of making an extravagantly unextravagant wallpaper instead.

Mmm, anybody feeling hungry?

Another character associated with the hands-in-pockets gesture is Ritsuko, but she is of absolutely no relevance to this analysis, so she shall be conveniently ignored.

Now, on the other hand, there is Gendo. On the rare occasions that he is not sitting there with steepled hands, he can sometimes be caught with one or both hands in his pockets. We can flag this, since Gendo, unlike Ritsuko, IS quite relevant to this analysis, as we shall see in Exhibit C.

<insert relevant Gendo screenshots and illustrations here>

*****

Didn't come out the way I wanted, but, considering that long, ugly interim, it doesn't really matter.

Something actually serious and productive next time.

_________________
-- Rachel K. Clark (a.k.a. "Reichu")
Avatar: Dr. Facilier (from The Princess and the Frog)
Every time I get over you you say something to make me love you again. -- ZapalacX