Why is Shinji so universally hated?

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Lucretius
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Postby Lucretius » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:17 pm

Manga Kaworu was assigned to keep tabs on Shinji, though this probably isn't relevant to the anime in the least.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby CyberXIII » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:35 pm

NemZ wrote:I was referring to Kaworu's sacrifice, which could be read as being either for Shinji's sake or for all of humanity. Either way hiding under the stairs waiting to die and then choosing to kill everyone is pretty much spitting on his sentiments.


Kaworu died so that the Lilim might live. Somehow Shinji was the one who gave him enough insight into how we exist in order to decide such. Kaworu promptly died for our sins and gave us a chance to win.

Shinji had NO DAMN CLUE that Rei was going to take him literally. He was so full of self-loathing, despair and rage that I'm surprised he didn't kill himself at the beginning of EoE.

NemZ wrote:I see no reason why he wouldn't expect the gigantic uber-Rei who liquified him and put him in direct mental contact with other dead people to have any trouble wiping out the globe. He meant exactly what he said, even if it was only spoken in a fit of anger, and she obliged him.


I see no reason to why he WOULD expect that to happen. At this point, Shinji has no idea what's going on right now, and probably didn't even know he'd been tanged.. Besides, how's he supposed to know that he's technically part of a god right now?
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Postby NemZ » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:59 pm

CyberXIII wrote:Shinji had NO DAMN CLUE that Rei was going to take him literally.


It wasn't just a slip of the tounge. She asked repeatedly and he confirmed.

I'm surprised he didn't kill himself at the beginning of EoE.


He did, right at the beginning. Tried to drown himself.

NemZ wrote:I see no reason to why he WOULD expect that to happen.


He knew the truth about 2nd impact, and clearly Rei had fused with an angel again. What does he need, a giant neon sign saying "3rd impact here"?
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Postby Legendary » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:20 pm

NemZ wrote:It wasn't just a slip of the tongue. She asked repeatedly and he confirmed.


Actually, the only time she asked what he wanted was before the pre-3I sequence, at which point he generated the image of the kids playing and said that he thought that if he came here, he could find something. After everything else (Misato/Kaji, the train, the strangulation), we get this:

Shinji:
Nobody wants me. So, everybody just die.
Rei:
Then, what are those hands for?
Shinji:
Nobody cares whether I exist or not... Nothing will change.
So, everybody just die.
Rei:
Then, what is that heart for?
Shinji:
It'd be better if I wasn't here either. So I should just die, too.

There's no real indication Shinji thought Rei was going to grant his wish. Suicidal people frequently make these sorts of statements, but are doing it as a cry for help. Rei, not really have a firm grasp of human emotions, didn't help.

He did, right at the beginning. Tried to drown himself.


OBJECTION. Your statement is based off of conjecture from one frame of animation featuring Shinji with some liquid on his face while near a lake. When one considers the fact that this attempt is never mentioned again, not even in Instrumentality when several other unfortunate facts are brought up about Shinji in BOTH versions, it's far more likely that he was sweating from the summer heat.

He knew the truth about 2nd impact, and clearly Rei had fused with an angel again. What does he need, a giant neon sign saying "3rd impact here"?


He probably thought he'd finally snapped. Look at those facial expressions. They don't suggest a full awareness of the world around him.
Last edited by Legendary on Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sachi » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:30 pm

Legendary wrote:OBJECTION. Your statement is based off of conjecture from one frame of animation featuring Shinji with some liquid in his hair while near a lake. When one considers the fact that this attempt is never mentioned again, not even in Instrumentality when several other unfortunate facts are brought up about Shinji in BOTH versions, it's far more likely that he was sweating from the summer heat.

That's a lot of sweat.
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Postby Legendary » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:34 pm

Yes, but when you consider that his shirt collar is poofy and not flattened out like wet cloth generally is, it makes much more sense than a drowning attempt.

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Postby Sachi » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:40 pm

Legendary wrote:Yes, but when you consider that his shirt collar is poofy and not flattened out like wet cloth generally is, it makes much more sense than a drowning attempt.

The same argument can be said for Shinji in the Entry Plug while wearing his uniform. It wouldn't be the first animation error EoE; Asuka's blood flows out of her eye as if it were passing through air, even though it should have clouded the Entry Plug.

I'm not arguing against your belief that he didn't try to drown himself; I'm just saying, that's a lot of sweat and I highly doubt Shinji would be up to an activity that would cause him to sweat that much, even if it were a summer day.
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Postby Lucretius » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:45 pm

I really, really doubt that the viewer is supposed to infer an off-screen suicide attempt (which is for some reason never mentioned again) based on a barely noticeable frame of animation. Evangelion is that subtle.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

Life is a continuous nut-kicking contest where your turn comes last if ever. -majlund

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Postby Legendary » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:45 pm

I dunno. In several episodes it is show cased how much A/C they need to keep at a reasonable temperature in post-3I Japan. Take, for example, Episode 2, where Misato does nothing more strenuous than flipping through channels but is still constantly fanning herself.

Note also that if they were going to make this one and only frame be PROOF that Shinji tried to commit suicide, they'd make sure to get it right, and even consider these things. They act like LCL is air for ease of animation purposes (see, Asuka listening to an SDAT or something in an Eva).

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Postby Sachi » Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:56 pm

Is Asuka's wrist for the "ease of animation" too?
Image
The point is that a lot of EoE's animation is extremely lazy, and his shirt may have very well been wet.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:01 pm

How did they not get it right? His head and only his head is drenched... there's really no good explanation for that other than intentionally dunking himself. It's a rehash of his aborted attempt in ep4.

Yes this is all speculation, but it definately is in keeping with the charecter and Anno's comments on him. That whole "can't even kill himself" line, wherever that was from. Somebody around here knows that stuff.
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Postby Legendary » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:22 pm

It's actually pretty difficult to dunk your head in a body of water without getting your shirt wet. It's pretty easy in tubs, because there water level is higher than ground level, but you can't do it in a lake, they slope. The only point of that scene is to show how completely miserable Shinji is. It's got nothing to do with suicide. Much easier to assume he's just sweating a lot as the day draws on but that the collar of his shirt hasn't been affected yet.


Sachi: One could very easily make the case that Asuka's interiors are slowly converting into LCL as Asuka approaches the 400% mark. :P

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:21 pm

The main argument for Shinji's suicide comes from episode #25 in EoTV. The shot in EoE is supplementary to that evidence, and the connection is admittedly rather loose. Having said that, I tend to think that the insert here is related to the theme of suicide running throughout both endings.
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Postby CyberXIII » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:04 am

NemZ wrote:It wasn't just a slip of the tounge. She asked repeatedly and he confirmed.


No, she asked him a bunch of mind-screwing gibberish. He wasn't listening to her, either, he was too busy monologuing about the fact that he can't stand himself and that no one loves him. (Oddly, that last one's almost true)

NemZ wrote:He did, right at the beginning. Tried to drown himself.


I said KILL himself, not TRY to kill himself. No one could experience that much soul-crushing despair and self-loathing and live for very long. Besides, he tries again when SEELE's mooks storm the base.

NemZ wrote:He knew the truth about 2nd impact, and clearly Rei had fused with an angel again. What does he need, a giant neon sign saying "3rd impact here"?


Yes. He has no idea what's really going on outside, all he saw was a hideously mutated Giant Naked Rei with her brains hanging out. Then she turned into Kaworu.
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."

I am ask-shinji-ikari on tumblr.com. Feel free to ask me questions!

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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:46 am

Legendary wrote:It's actually pretty difficult to dunk your head in a body of water without getting your shirt wet.


Fair enough, though I'm still convinced something pretty important happened there. Shinji has never been drawn in such a manner before, and between his later actions and his current situation (as well as the location he's in) make a suicide attempt a likely answer.

@OMF: What are you referring to in 25?

CyberXIII wrote:No, she asked him a bunch of mind-screwing gibberish.


She asked him what he wanted, and he chose boobs. Then he met up with all the potential candidates for the position and they generally brushed him off, so he decided to change his wish to genocide instead.

Oh, and about needing a "3I in progress" sign... Misato told him in the car that's what people were trying to do and what he had to stop.

You're also getting your Rei's mixed up... the brain-leaking one was a refurbished MPE, not the actual GNR.
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"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
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"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:06 pm

Shinji headwash tangent merged.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:40 pm

This thread appears to be meandering far, far away from the original topic, repeatedly, and probably needs a vacation.
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