A very fair review of Evangelion I found

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LealahLupin3
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Postby LealahLupin3 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:31 pm

For evidence that he isn't out of the hole, there's the final scene of EoE. There are many interpretations of that scene, but going with the interpretation above.... deciding to live only to find out you didn't reverse the apocalypse but only stopped it half way? That must've been a slap in the face for Shinji. Running with that, could he be strangling Asuka (who he might not realize is alive at the time) as a form of protest at this farce before him? Does he just breakdown emotionally and start crying upon realizing she is alive, mirroring his reaction to finding Rei alive in the plug at the end of episode 6? Again, heck if I know.


I've always tried but never could reconcile the seemingly happy ending of EoTV with the dark, depressing, Shinji's-right-back-where-he-started ending of EoE, even though I always agreed with the whole "EoTV was what was happening in Shinji's mind during EoE." Your post helped immensely with that. Thank you, The Abhorrent.
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Postby Nightweaver20xx » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:15 pm

I finally saw her review and already commented on it, so I won't say much more here that I didn't already say on the 'Tube. I will say one thing, though, that drives me to love Eva more than anything, regardless of its jumble sale philosophy or sometimes lazy animation: It was the first anime series I saw that grounded real people in an unreal world. It gave us humans who had real problems, not bullshit superficial nonsense that most of anime gave me before Eva.

Human beings are incredible messes. We're far more tragic and disturbed inside than even we give ourselves credit for, let alone other people. We all have little minor psychoses and obsessions which Eva can tap into like a keg and let flow. The darkness of our minds, the cavernous depths of our subconscious, do we proclaim to know exactly what's in them? No, of course not. Not one scientist has come out and said, "We've unlocked the mysteries of the human mind." Anno tried to do that in his own uniquely awkward and piecemeal way in Eva. So I love it, not in spite of its flaws, but because of them. It's a human creation, made by us, to try to explain us as people. And yes, our own perceptions of reality can be changed by the way we interpret them. There's that little bit of hope in Eva, too, that such a thing is possible. That we don't have to be a giant mess of coping strategies; that we can find happiness within ourselves, somewhere.

Each person's journey is unique.

No one can tell you how to feel.

We are shaped by our interactions with others.

Even so, at our core, we are still alone with our thoughts.

How will you choose to live?

How do you view Eva?

That answer is yours alone.
"The tranquil angel's thesis has ended, so now it is beginning/ Clinging tightly to the life you protect/ You will receive an answer from that dream~
--Epilogue of Evangelion

The story is never over as long as humans can still love one another.

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Postby Warren Peace » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:09 am

All this review proves is that an identification with (or at least understanding of) Shinji is essential if you're going to get anything out of Eva. If you can't do that, the show will alienate you. In fact, it seems like parts of it are designed specifically to alienate those people.

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Postby Ornette » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:20 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:All this review proves is that an identification with (or at least understanding of) Shinji is essential if you're going to get anything out of Eva. If you can't do that, the show will alienate you. In fact, it seems like parts of it are designed specifically to alienate those people.

There is nothing about Shinji that I can identify with, and I can understand him as far as a main character in a fictional story. I don't feel alienated by the show.

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Postby Warren Peace » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:40 am

Well, you DO understand him, which is the important thing. You get where he's coming from. These criticisms of "Oh my God, he's a wuss! Why would anyone like him?" may miss the point (and they do), but there's nothing to be done. You can't explain away such visceral reactions. Personal experience informs your relationship NGE - Even if nothing in your own life mirrors Shinji's, you've got to have lived certain things to understand him. A lot of people (through no fault of their own) just haven't. Which can't be overcome, as far as "getting" the show.

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Postby Nightweaver20xx » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:49 am

Once you lose or almost lose (my case) your mother to illness, tragedy, abuse, whatever, the series becomes all that more germane to you. At least it should.
"The tranquil angel's thesis has ended, so now it is beginning/ Clinging tightly to the life you protect/ You will receive an answer from that dream~
--Epilogue of Evangelion

The story is never over as long as humans can still love one another.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:46 am

View Original PostLealahLupin3 wrote:I've always tried but never could reconcile the seemingly happy ending of EoTV with the dark, depressing, Shinji's-right-back-where-he-started ending of EoE,
There's a better answer: EoTV ends in Instrumentality. Shinji's decisions is celebrated with everyone, amongst the perfect "united souls" of Instrumentality. The big BLUE world at he end is an indication of this (Rei=blue=water=mother=origins=Instrumentality). In contrast, EoE shows the only scene post-Instrumentality when Shinji emerges back into the real world. This world is stark and barren (a beach, compared with the blue water of Instrumentality; beach = next to/coming out of the water). It's reality, rather than fantasy. Shinji is back to being a hurt, lonely individual, with only Asuka there (who is hardly congratulating him for his tough decision). The EoE ending is also cast entirely in red (Asuka=red=significant other=individuality).

What does it mean? It means that decision to live and change is easy inside a perfect world where you are one with everyone and there's no aching pain that comes along with living in reality and being an individual (EoTV), but actual acting on that decision and learning to live is something entirely different when you actually find yourself back in reality (EoE).
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
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I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:45 pm

Late to the party I guess, but it seems I never commented on this so I feel I should fix that.

Unlike most, I was not terribly impressed with this review. The reviewer is clearly articulate, but her understanding of both postmodern existentialism and its application to the show is severely lacking. The main problem with her approach is that she's clearly approaching things from a positivist mindset: she's assuming there's an objective reality out there that can be meaningfully identified (which appears to be true in the same way that Newtonian physics appears to be true, but falls apart for many of the same reasons), and from there assumes that the chorus in EoTV was going down the road to absolute relativism when in fact they were talking about relationships and interactions with others (where things are much more fluid than they are in physical reality). This makes the major problem explained and addressed in the middle of her review completely fizzle. Seriously, postmodernists get this a lot. They are not saying that the world we see and interact with is a product of our own design. They are saying that we cannot fully ascertain the nature of reality because our senses and the instruments that inform them are imperfect. There is an objective world out there, but our observations and descriptions of it will always be inaccurate because we are limited beings. That's about as far as it goes. On a related note she also misses the point of Instrumentality to a fairly baffling extent. The whole reason the chorus setup works is because Shinji's looking into the hearts and minds of others at the time, and they are likewise looking into his. He believes what they are saying because they believe it; he is persuaded by Complementation, not by the logic of their arguments. His big breakthrough simply wouldn't be possible in any other context and the show's pretty explicit about this.

On the topic of Shinji we encounter other problems. She assumes everyone hates him, which is obviously not the case (particularly in Japan). She takes this as a given since she assumes we want our heroes/protagonists to act in a certain way, and of course the whole point of the show was that Shinji was designed to subvert that role. Shinji isn't supposed to get his head out of his ass and take a stand or whatever; instead he's supposed to find that there's no One True Path, and that life is something one needs to endure even though it's painful and confusing. But even leaving avant-garde filmmaking aside her approach here is still mired in ethnocentrism as she's looking at the show in the context of her own cultural expectations rather than those of the target audience. Evangelion does not fail as a work simply because it fails to live up to stereotypical American cultural sensibilities; indeed, those sensibilities are not even relevant when discussing its artistic worth and cultural impact. At the end of the day Evangelion is a Japanese show made for a Japanese audience, and that is the context in which it, and Shinji, must be judged.

Once she moves on to "practical" problems the review becomes even more problematic. Prior to this point she was articulate even if she was operating based on flawed assumptions, but in the last third of the review she just starts lambasting the show for "flaws" that are subjective at best and flat-out incorrect at worst. She thinks the helltrain scenes (and the "character in isolation" scenes in general) fall prey to show-don't-tell (they don't; they do show, but they do it via monologues rather than events, which is just as valid); she thinks things like the elevator scene with Rei and Asuka and the end of 24 were shot that way due to budget problems instead of to build tension and such (and she apparently missed the fact that the elevator scene was animated); she thought 24 was rushed and unbelievable instead of being really fucking dense; and so on. Finally, she seems to think Anno hates his fanbase, and that EoE was a middle finger to the fans, and that Anno's continually rewritten the end of the show . . . none of which is true. She also seems to think the new movies are awesome, even though they throw away the very things she was praising in the original show (seriously, she criticized the show for the way it handled Asuka's and Rei's arcs, but seems to have no problem with the fact that they're made into props for Shinji in the NME? It doesn't make much sense).

What I find most baffling about this review is the fact that it didn't address any of the IMO legitimate problems with the show. Things like Rei's truncated arc, the laughable attitudes of the adults toward the kids who are responsible for saving the world, the utterly roundabout and completely unnecessary approach taken to achieve Instrumentality, the gratuitous nature of Asuka's final battle, the uneven animation quality throughout the show (she claims it's front-loaded, but that's not really true; it's wonky all the way through), etc. There are a lot of legitimate problems with the show, so why focus on stuff that's iffy at best? It makes for a review that looks reasonable on the surface but ultimately misses the mark by a fair margin.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby SaVaGe » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:49 pm

One thing I will say is that she criticizes Shinij based on her own (and society's) prerequisites of what makes a "hero". But that's the point. Shinji is an antihero. Shinji's not a perfect character, but it isn't fair to condemn him because he fails to do what other anime heroes would do in his situation. That's the point.

I will say she makes some valid points though.
I'm SaVaGe and I am an Evaholic

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Rant:My complaints for the Jesuotaku review of evengelion

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Postby Zeldafan888 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:03 am

I have just re-watch episode 1, It had it minor flaws animation/editing wise during certain scenes but that not the focus, the focus here is the complain't I have about her review.
The main I have is that she should at least acknowledged the budgeting problems during the production of the anime. the reason why is because by episode 18, the sponsors for anime cut off funds for the series because of how violent the series has become combine with a even more depressed Hideaki Anno is where the anime became even more focus on the themes of existentialism and deconstructing anime tropes.
The second budget cut occurred before the production of episode 25 because the intended ending (which as you know became End of Evengelion) was too violent which lead to one of shittiest ending to what was at least a good anime depending on your opinion, it up there with the ending of mass effect 3 and Twin peaks ending.
Evengelion itself is a subject experience, It depends on whether you can relate with Shinji or hate him because of how unlikable his character is, Are you offended by the used of references to Hebrew based religion or the person that consider the anime to be deep and over analyse it despite the fact that it just there to look cool especially if it a cross shape explosion :emogendo:


End of mini rant


Also if there's any grammar problems please let me know via posting in this thread.

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Postby hui43210 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:58 am

I don't watch these kind of things, I know i love eva, why should anyother pov matter? Its all subjective. As such, I never watch any of the anime reviewers on tgwtg, they're ethier slaging things i like, or looking at things id rather see for my self. I tried watching sage after his NC crossover, and first thing he did was Akira...... Rather than watch the vid I read the comments. The avrage response was, "thanks for saving me from watching this over-rated pile of shit"
:fuyu_facepalm:

I made the assecsment that I should continue to pass on those vids.
I mean, predictability is the central attraction and the narrative hook that we've all come to expect from the Evangelion franchise. How come Anno can't realize this? Twice? - FreakyFilmFan4ever

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Postby Love Not Given Lightly » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:17 pm

JesuOtaku is the only anime reviewer I ever watch anymore, and I've been a fan of hers since her first videos. While I disagree with her a lot of the time (Nausicaa > Mononoke, Fruits Basket is awful, this is excellent), she always gives great insight into the anime she's reviewing.
There are no stupid ideas, only stupid executions.

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Postby Jayfive » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:57 pm

I am quite suprised that this thread is still here given that the review isnt there.

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:19 pm

It can be found in other places, so it's still relevant.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Jayfive » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:25 pm

Links? I may have watched this already but I would like a refresh.

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:50 pm

View Original PostJayfive wrote:Links? I may have watched this already but I would like a refresh.


Blip
Critics Watch

Not sure if the urls work since they're blocked at work, but those are the two that come to mind.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Lucretius » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:47 am

NGE has some pretty glaring problems, e.g. its inability to maintain a consistent tone, George Lucas-esque dialogue, and dubious gender politics, but from what I remember, this reviewer's complaints mainly amounted to "This show contradicts my theistic worldview." Meh.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

Life is a continuous nut-kicking contest where your turn comes last if ever. -majlund

Proud supporter of Shinji x Sachiel

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Postby CaasiBoy » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:16 pm

I'm a JO fan myself, and she's actually admitted recently that she's embarrased by that review, particularly how amateur her analysis on the psychologiccal aspects of the show are.

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:28 pm

View Original PostCaasiBoy wrote:I'm a JO fan myself, and she's actually admitted recently that she's embarrased by that review, particularly how amateur her analysis on the psychologiccal aspects of the show are.


That's good to know. In light of that I'd be interested to hear her revised take on the show now.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby DevRei17 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:51 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That's good to know. In light of that I'd be interested to hear her revised take on the show now.

She's changed her opinion of the show some what as far as I can tell. She's still not a big fan but she sees the merits of the show now and affectionally refers to Eva now as a "flawed masterpiece".


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