Rei's Genetic Lineage... er, Origins (Again)

[AuraTwilight]

Humans are born with all their egg cells.

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha no.

[Bagheera]

Not quite following your logic.

I also was puzzled by this. Biology does not work that way! A clone of Yui should have ovaries and eggs and such just like Yui would. It might still be sterile, naturally, but all the parts should be there.

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha no.

He's right about that, actually. Human egg cells do all their division prior to birth.

[AshPhoenix]

If you're using the broader definition that includes the Seeds of Life...

Do the Seeds sexually reproduce? I couldn't find a thread stating how exactly the Seeds create new beings (not give birth to; create).

Not quite following your logic.

I mean, if Rei is a Lilith/Yui hybrid, how was she cloned? NERV could have grown Rei in a tube filled with LCL, with a Rei I fetus being grown from a lock of Yui's hair (for all we know).

I also was puzzled by this. Biology does not work that way! A clone of Yui should have ovaries and eggs and such just like Yui would. It might still be sterile, naturally, but all the parts should be there.

That's what I meant (that Rei was sterile). Going back to the thing I said above, we don't know how Rei was "grown". What if her growth was stunted in such a way that reproductive structures didn't form inside her? If I was somebody in NERV (just in case NERV failed and Rei decided to start a family), I wouldn't want a bunch of Lilith clones running around.

[AuraTwilight]

I mean, if Rei is a Lilith/Yui hybrid, how was she cloned? NERV could have grown Rei in a tube filled with LCL, with a Rei I fetus being grown from a lock of Yui's hair (for all we know).

Well, the first Rei is implied to have been created when they tried to retrieve Yui. For the others, I like the idea that those are what the human legs in Lilith's bottom torso represent.

[AshPhoenix]

For the others, I like the idea that those are what the human legs in Lilith's bottom torso represent.

That's what I thought too, but I realized it would make more sense that the missing part is from when Eva-01 was created:

SPOILER: Show

Back on topic:

Well, the first Rei is implied to have been created when they tried to retrieve Yui.

If Yui was completely dissolved into Eva and none of her body remained, how could Rei have been created as such? And by what means?

[Azathoth]

If Yui was completely dissolved into Eva and none of her body remained, how could Rei have been created as such? And by what means?

Rei is generally thought to have been created by the previous (failed) salvage operation that Ritsuko makes reference to in 20. As to how Yui's genes were in there: bear in mind that a human soul in Eva contains all the data required to create that human's body - by means of an AT field rather than normal mitotic human growth. Even after Yui dissolved, she had the means to reform her body at any point.

[AshPhoenix]

As to how Yui's genes were in there: bear in mind that a human soul in Eva contains all the data required to create that human's body - by means of an AT field rather than normal mitotic human growth. Even after Yui dissolved, she had the means to reform her body at any point.

So NERV somehow manipulated Yui's particles to form Rei and injected part of Lilith's soul into Rei.

[Sachi]

So NERV somehow manipulated Yui's particles to form Rei and injected part of Lilith's soul into Rei.

Rei was created by accident while trying to extract Yui from Unit-01.

[Azathoth]

So NERV somehow manipulated Yui's particles to form Rei and injected part of Lilith's soul into Rei.

Unit 01 was still connected to Lilith at this point: my guess would be that they tried to salvage Yui by stabilizing her AT field and sort of got that (as reflected in her physical form), but either Yui convinced Lilith to leave instead of her, or they just sucked out Lilith's soul by mistake.

[AshPhoenix]

Unit 01 was still connected to Lilith at this point: my guess would be that they tried to salvage Yui by stabilizing her AT field and sort of got that (as reflected in her physical form), but either Yui convinced Lilith to leave instead of her, or they just sucked out Lilith's soul by mistake.

Makes sense, but if the soul projects an AT Field, and Rei has Lilith's soul, how is it possible that she has Yui's AT Field? Wouldn't she have Lilith's AT (or Anti-AT) Field?

[Azathoth]

Makes sense, but if the soul projects an AT Field, and Rei has Lilith's soul, how is it possible that she has Yui's AT Field? Wouldn't she have Lilith's AT (or Anti-AT) Field?

Yui's AT field shaped her because it was present when she was created, and that's what the process that created her was trying to work with. Rei doesn't literally possess Yui's ATF, Yui still has it. But it's a strong (the strongest) influence on how her physical form takes shape.

Basically salvaging doesn't work very well and Rei's backstory is mostly fanwank.

[AshPhoenix]

Basically salvaging doesn't work very well and Rei's backstory is mostly fanwank.

IIRC, salvaging requires the person WANTING to come back, and Yui wanted to stay inside Eva. Agreed on Rei's backstory being mostly fanwank, though.

Okay, so wouldn't Lilith's Anti-AT Field make it so that Rei would just automatically be Tanged? Or does Lilith possess both [AT and Anti-AT Fields], and can make whichever one she wants materialize?

[AuraTwilight]

Rei is made of PWM, so she doesn't tang regardless. Lilith's Anti-AT Field only activates in End of Evangelion, so it's sort of completely irrelevant.

If Lilith has a soul, she has an AT Field. An Anti-AT Field isn't so much "An AT Field, but opposite" but "Lilith or Adam using their awesome powers to turn off everyone's AT Fields."

[AshPhoenix]

An Anti-AT Field isn't so much "An AT Field, but opposite" but "Lilith or Adam using their awesome powers to turn off everyone's AT Fields."

Okay, that makes more sense. I had thought an Anti-AT Field was the former.

Rei is made of PWM

If Rei has a human's body (or is at least a hybrid), how can she be made of PWM?

[Azathoth]

If Rei has a human's body (or is at least a hybrid), how can she be made of PWM?

She comes from Lilith/Unit 01 directly (by budding off it, or something), not from the LCL within Unit 01's plug.

[AuraTwilight]

Also, PWM can be shaped like anything. It's basically Playdoh.

[Kendrix]

According to the Manga,the salvage operation resulted in a complete Rei I, who was LATER filled with a soul. However, I have never liked the Manga.

In the Anime/EoE We can only guess (the mystery just makes it better, in my opinion) - it's left somewhat open - But Ritsuko states that Rei was born in that laboratory room but the red cross book says something about "salvaged Remains."
Fuyutsuki calld Rei "The product of his despair", but in ep 25, Rei says she was created by Gendo.
Oh, and Naoko, who led the salvage operation, didn't know who Rei was. (We see her looking through Rei's files or more accurately, the lack therof)

Let me puzzle all this together: When the salvage operation started failing (Sabotaged by Naoko? Because Yui didn't want to leave? Both?), Fuyutsuki ran up to the console and tried something desperate to pull Yui out by force - But as Yui is as stubborn as her cute little son, he didn't suceed - Instead, they got some lumps of flesh, which were a mixture between Yui's body and Lillith-DNA from Unit 01 (EVA 01 showed blue hair in EoE. Being Lillith-derived seems to do that to you) - Yui had retreated deep into EVA 01 to stay there, so they got some of the Evangelion itself while trying to grad Yui - The operation was declared a failure.
Gendo got those lumps of flesh brought to his laboratory so he could examine them, hoping to find a way to get Yui back, and noticed that the mixed Angel/Human DNA could be useful for Instrumentality.
He got those remains to reform into human shape, but there wasn't enough matter to form a full grown woman, so Gendo ended up with a little girl instead, or at least something he could craft one from. - or he extracted some cells from the remains, made some adjustments to its DNA and then had Rei cloned from that cell, tough I tend towards the former.

Either way, Rei came out of Unit 01 and Gendo had his hand in her creation, so he decided to give her the Name he'd planned to give to his daughter if he'd had one, perhaps taking revenge at destiny for not allowing him to have some more kids with Yui.

[AshPhoenix]

Wow. That's a great summary of this whole thread.

[Shin-seiki]

Oh, and Naoko, who led the salvage operation

RITSUKO:
Unfortunately, I didn't come up with the idea.
It's data from experiments completed ten years ago.

IBUKI
This kind of thing happened during the Eva's development?

RITSUKO:
It was before I worked here.
It seems my mother was here, but I only know the data.

That's a pretty thin thread on which to hang the notion that Naoko was actually in charge of the operation.

Fuyutsuki calld Rei "The product of his despair", but in ep 25, Rei says she was created by Gendo.

Once again, I wish to state that I categorically reject the hyper-literal interpretation of that line of Fuyutsuki's. The obvious narrative intent of the series as a whole is that it was Gendo that (in some sense or other) 'created' Rei. In this line from #14, Fuyutsuki doesn't even seem to 'get' the full significance of who and what Rei is:

FUYUTSUKI:
What about the Unit 00 accident? That wasn't in my script.

IKARI:
It is no obstacle.
The re-synchronization test for Rei and Unit 00 was successful.

FUYUTSUKI (MONO):
Ikari is too concerned about Rei.

Let me puzzle all this together: When the salvage operation started failing (Sabotaged by Naoko? Because Yui didn't want to leave? Both?)

Again, I don't necessarily buy that Naoko was even directly involved in the salvage operation. It makes her reaction to meeting Rei 1 easier to swallow if she wasn't.

[Azathoth]

In this line from #14, Fuyutsuki doesn't even seem to 'get' the full significance of who and what Rei is:

I think he understands who Rei is and why her existence is important - but remember, Fuyutsuki supports Yui, and apparently thinks that Gendou too supports her. Yui's plans probably didn't even involve Lilith, except as an obstacle to her potential apotheosis - I mean, her whole project was based on making herself into a second Lilith who could do whatever she pleased. Fuyutsuki probably isn't expecting Gendou's scenario to even be focused on Rei at this point - I don't think he fully realizes yet (as he does in EoE) that Gendou's plan is for Rei to reunify him with Yui, and therefore is confused by Gendou treating her as important.

Again, I don't necessarily buy that Naoko was even directly involved in the salvage operation.

Agreed there. Ritsuko doesn't know what she's talking about, she's always willing to talk shit about her mom. Naoko was a biocomputing specialist, all the indications are that she concerned herself with the scientific end of Nerv and not the mystical. Her work with the proto-Unit 00 - which we don't know the extent of - may be all she ever did with an Eva.