Seeds. Angels. Evas. Humans. Inconsistencies!

[AuraTwilight]

A god, sort've, yea.

[Allemann]

So Adam is God?

No. That would be the FAR.

[Seph]

No. That would be the FAR.

They're also: "A god, sort've, yea."

[AshPhoenix]

I think that "Angels" is too general of a term. I mean, almost EVERYTHING in NGE is an Angel. Okay, so the things that attack Tokyo-3 are Angels, so how could the thing that made them, Adam, also be an Angel? And humans, which weren't even created by Adam, are considered (by Misato, at least), as Angels too? Even Lilith is considered an Angel! So it kind of seems to me that "Angel" is too generic to be specific.

[skikes]

I think that "Angels" is too general of a term. I mean, almost EVERYTHING in NGE is an Angel. Okay, so the things that attack Tokyo-3 are Angels, so how could the thing that made them, Adam, also be an Angel? And humans, which weren't even created by Adam, are considered (by Misato, at least), as Angels too? Even Lilith is considered an Angel! So it kind of seems to me that "Angel" is too generic to be specific.

Yeah, this bothers me too. I can understand Adam being an Angel because Humans give birth to Humans, Angels give birth to Angels. But surely then Lilith is human.
Evangelions too, they are Angels, clones at least. And what of Kaworu? How could the dead sea scrolls have predicted 17 angels when Seele made one of them themselves? If Seele just assumed that what they had created was the last then why not assume Rei was one also?
Though maybe Kaworu was never the last and the last was Really Giant Naked Rei/Kaworu. I don't know...

[Sachi]

Kaworu wasn't created by Seele; he was born in a similar manner as Rei during Second Impact.

Seele isn't aware of Rei's identity as Lilith. They only begin suspecting something is up after Rei comes back in 23.

As far as I'm concerned, Adam and Lilith aren't Angels; they're Seeds of Life. Adam births the Angels, and Lilith births the Lilin.

[skikes]

Kaworu wasn't created by Seele; he was born in a similar manner as Rei during Second Impact.

Fanwank aside how exactly was Rei created during second impact?

[Reichu]

Fanwank aside how exactly was Rei created during second impact?

I think Sachi was trying to say that Kaworu was created on the day of Second Impact and that his genesis has some similarities to Rei's.

As far as I'm concerned, Adam and Lilith aren't Angels; they're Seeds of Life. Adam births the Angels, and Lilith births the Lilin.

Wellll... It's kind of like the "humans" thing. Brush it off, or make the most of it?

I now present a diagram I wish I had done a long time ago.



Too lazy/tired to provide a full explanation right now, though...

[Xard]

What reason do we have for thinking Kaworu has Adam genes/flesh? The Contact Experiment?

[Reichu]

What reason do we have for thinking Kaworu has Adam genes/flesh? The Contact Experiment?

Stuff about a contact experiment with a donor scheduled for the day when 2I happened, where genes "dived" into Adam and "physically fused"... Put that together with Kaworu's Second Impact 'birth date', and the fact that he's an Angel that looks like a Lilin, and it's a simple game of "Connect the dots, la-la-lala" [/Peewee].

There's no way to know whether Kaworu has any Adam genes or not, and it ultimately doesn't matter, but the stuff about diving DNA and fusion sounds like a euphemism for conception.

[Bagheera]

Off-topic, but I'm still not clear on why Unit 01 was made using a different process than all the other Evangelions. I know that it was, mind you, but I'm not at all clear on why.

[Sachi]

Off-topic, but I'm still not clear on why Unit 01 was made using a different process than all the other Evangelions. I know that it was, mind you, but I'm not at all clear on why.

I think EoE makes that clear. Unit-01 had always been a special Eva, and arguably much more powerful than the rest. Theoretically, if you have an Adam-based Eva and a Lilith-based Eva you pretty much have all the tools you need for a Third Impact.

[Bagheera]

I think EoE makes that clear. Unit-01 had always been a special Eva, and arguably much more powerful than the rest. Theoretically, if you have an Adam-based Eva and a Lilith-based Eva you pretty much have all the tools you need for a Third Impact.

Right, but what's the rationale for doing that to begin with? How did SEELE (or whomever) sell the idea back when the units were being created? And why only make one using material from Lilith? Why not two separate series or something? You know, hedging bets and all that.

It just seems kinda random and haphazard, that's all.

[Reichu]

It just seems kinda random and haphazard, that's all.

I'm willing to bet it's because they didn't come up with the "Lilith clone" idea until scripting EoE.

Seriously, with shit like this:



...IMO the series is slightly more coherent if Eva-01 still has some kind of tie to Adam even despite the "ZOMG LILITH NO BUNSHIN" reveal.

So, uh, no comments on the chart? I thought a visual of what the show calls 'Angel' and 'human', with some background stuff added, would help put things in perspective. FAR being "human" is a deduction; should probably have used a different color to indicate as much.

[Sachi]

It just seems kinda random and haphazard, that's all.

I doubt Seele had anything to do with Project E aside from the funding. If anything, the decision to make Unit-01 unique was made by either Naoko, Yui, or Gendo.

One could theorize that they discovered Lilith after the development of Unit-00, but before Unit-01. They may have thought, "Hey, instead of cloning from samples of DNA, why don't we just directly clone from the real thing?" However, upon doing so, they realized that doing so severely crippled Lilith, and they ceased that sort of production. /fanwank

I'm willing to bet it's because they didn't come up with the "Lilith clone" idea until scripting EoE.

Well, they were pushing the importance of Unit-01 throughout the series, particularly with in ep16. While they may not have decided on what exactly was important, they surely had some idea.

So, uh, no comments on the chart? I thought a visual of what the show calls 'Angel' and 'human', with some background stuff added, would help put things in perspective. FAR being "human" is a deduction; should probably have used a different color to indicate as much.

Well, it certainly explained more than that old chart I made.

[Reichu]

I doubt Seele had anything to do with Project E aside from the funding.

The Evas are a huge Instrumentality-related investment on Seele's part. The MP Evas are the culmination of this.

If anything, the decision to make Unit-01 unique was made by either Naoko, Yui, or Gendo.

I think Naoko was just a computer nerd. And Gendo... Nobody knows what Gendo did.

The hideous experiments on Lilith were probably prompted by a desire on Seele's part for a "backup", in the event she were destroyed or rendered unusable. Then, this doesn't really make much sense of the fact that Eva-01 is the supposed "Test Type" in the Eva Series (hence a bump up from Prototype, on the way to establishing the Production Model), but neither does her having completely disparate origins from the rest. Unless she really is based on Adam's genome after all, and they just used Lilith to generate her body, which then converges on your suggestion.

"We weren't able to make that prototype very efficiently, were we? Well, hmm, maybe this Second Angel thing will let us cheat a little on the next one... In go them Adam genes, and out comes--"

I dunno, maybe it's a bit of both.

One could theorize that they discovered Lilith after the development of Unit-00, but before Unit-01.

They probably started working on the Adam-cloning process before Lilith was uncovered, but I'm sure they'd found her by the time they were dangling giant CNSs and arms from ceilings.

Well, they were pushing the importance of Unit-01 throughout the series, particularly with in ep16. While they may not have decided on what exactly was important, they surely had some idea.

It might as well have just been "Eva-01 is Commander Ikari's wife".

Well, it certainly explained more than that old chart I made.

Which old chart?

This thread seems to need a retitling or... something.

[Bagheera]

The hideous experiments on Lilith were probably prompted by a desire on Seele's part for a "backup", in the event she were destroyed or rendered unusable. Then, this doesn't really make much sense of the fact that Eva-01 is the supposed "Test Type" in the Eva Series (hence a bump up from Prototype, on the way to establishing the Production Model), but neither does her having completely disparate origins from the rest. Unless she really is based on Adam's genome after all, and they just used Lilith to generate her body, which then converges on your suggestion.

"We weren't able to make that prototype very efficiently, were we? Well, hmm, maybe this Second Angel thing will let us cheat a little on the next one... In go them Adam genes, and out comes--"

I dunno, maybe it's a bit of both.

The part that really confuses me concerns the fact that they started with an Adam-based model, switched over to Lilith for one unit, and then went back to an Adam-based genome. It would all work out so much better if Unit 01 was the prototype...

[skikes]

This thread seems to need a retitling or... something.

Or a merger with this one this one I made a while back.

Seeds. Angels. Evas. Humans. Inconsistencies!

According to your chart nothing is truly just an Angel, everything is human or both? I would consider Angels 3-16 to be purely angel. The seeds, Rei, Kaworu and Evangelions are both. Humans are just human.

If Adam is both and Eva is cloned from Adam then Eva is both also. If Rei and Kaworu are both, human body/angel soul then the reverse should be true also, Evangelion = angel body/human soul.

I don't think the designations in the show can be used as evidence because when you think about it the characters really seem to have no clue what they are talking about when they throw these terms around. It's hard to tell what is a metaphor and what isn't.

[AshPhoenix]

Well, so many things are called "Kami" in Evangelion that it's kind of difficult to interpret exactly who/what the characters are talking about.

[AshPhoenix]

According to your chart nothing is truly just an Angel, everything is human or both? I would consider Angels 3-16 to be purely angel. The seeds, Rei, Kaworu and Evangelions are both. Humans are just human.

If Adam is both and Eva is cloned from Adam then Eva is both also. If Rei and Kaworu are both, human body/angel soul then the reverse should be true also, Evangelion = angel body/human soul.

And also, the FAR and Eva is human? So by that logic, shouldn't Adam and Lilith, and everything derived from them, be human as well? I really think that "Human" and "Angel" should be defined.