Why Was the Positron Rifle Never Reused?

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Why Was the Positron Rifle Never Reused?

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Postby NAveryW » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:08 pm

In particular against Israfel, when the Evas had already failed and the Angel(s) was/were immobilized, not to mention the fact that the positron canon was already used in the previous episode, Misato apparently didn't even consider using the positron rifle again. Kaji's idea had the bonus of helping Shinji and Asuka cooperate, but Ritsuko didn't give Misato the idea until she needed to be given one ("bailing out an old friend"). It was shown in episode 6 that Nerv could requisition it without permission, and with all the public relations people furious at all the damage the Evas caused in their failed first fight against Israfel, I'd think they'd welcome the idea of the reuse of a nice, clean positron rifle beam.

Yes, the rifle was experimental, but because it wasn't known if it'd work yet. It worked in episode 5, thus "completing" the experiment, and it didn't break. Yes, it took a long time to set up, but the plan they ended up using took way, way longer.

In the IRC, someone (I can't remember who) suggested that SEELE would prevent them from using the positron canon for the sake of keeping the Evas necessary and allowing them to complete the MPEs. In response to that, I say that Misato, who was in charge of coming up with battle strategies, did not know about the MPEs until episode 24, nor of SEELE's intentions. Thus, she would have at least attempted use of the positron canon even if SEELE stopped her somehow.

The only explanation I can think of that doesn't result in an amnesiac Misato or a plothole is that Misato did try to requisition the positron canon again and failed, but that that wasn't shown. Logan insists that I'm a dumbass for thinking it was illogical of them not to try to reuse the positron canon. What do you think?

And remember, if you're about to say "It's just a cartoon, don't think too much about it," you're missing the point of this subforum.
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Postby IrkenEvangelion » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:09 pm

Lolz. But seriously the only explanation I would have is that it required a very large amount of energy.
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Postby TheLobe » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:16 pm

I think it was very uncertain that it would work. They used all of japans energy, and they weren't sure it would work. Also later angels move about more. ramiel had no chance of moving. If you shot Israfel it would probably split and then be impossible to shoot, especially if you need to destroy them both at the same time.

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Postby NAveryW » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:17 pm

TheLobe wrote:I think it was very uncertain that it would work. They used all of japans energy, and they weren't sure it would work.
But it did and it didn't break.
TheLobe wrote:Also later angels move about more. ramiel had no chance of moving. If you shot Israfel it would probably split and then be impossible to shoot, especially if you need to destroy them both at the same time.
They were both completely immobilized for days. Set it up at the right angle and you can shoot both of them through their cores with one clean blow.
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Postby evaunit13 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:29 pm

00 used it in 22 against arael. and if they used the rifle to attack why couldn't the evas just walk over and crush the cores in the first place. for almost all the other angels they appeared too suddenly and they probably couldn't set everything up in time
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:07 pm

evaunit13 wrote:00 used it in 22 against arael. and if they used the rifle to attack why couldn't the evas just walk over and crush the cores in the first place. for almost all the other angels they appeared too suddenly and they probably couldn't set everything up in time

I believe they were kinda smashed into the ground after that fight...

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Postby Fast Tony DeNiro » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:24 pm

NAveryW wrote:They were both completely immobilized for days. Set it up at the right angle and you can shoot both of them through their cores with one clean blow.


They didn't move because NERV wasn't putting any pressure on them. Start setting up a positron rifle with intent to mercilessly slaughter them and I bet you Israfel would drag it's ass out of the way.

evaunit13 wrote:00 used it in 22 against arael.


That was different. It was the positron rifle at normal power, which is why it wasn't able to pierce Arael's AT Field. When they used it against Ramiel it had all the power of Japan funneled into the shot.

Which is probably the biggest reason it was never used again. They would be shutting down Japan every couple days to use the rifle, and they couldn't afford to do that. Who knows what heavy usage would do to the nation's power grid, also. Start blowing generators and wasting power stations and the rifle becomes totally useless.

And yes, the rifle did work the one time against Ramiel. It was still experimental though, so they couldn't be positive it would work again. Banking your entire operation on one clean snipe shot is great, but if the rifle fails to work, that would put them in a bad situation.

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Postby Uriel Septim VII » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:12 am

If you were a citizen of Japan and the only thing that could effectively stop the angels from killing everyone in world was a frequent power outage, would you really prioritize humanity's survival over watching HDTV? Think about it.
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Postby Fast Tony DeNiro » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:18 am

Think of everything that would be shut down if there was no power. It wouldn't just be people's precious TV's.

I mean, they could use generators I suppose, but I would think the hassle of shutting off and turning the power back on every couple days would be a nightmare.

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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:51 am

Fast Tony DeNiro wrote:That was different. It was the positron rifle at normal power, which is why it wasn't able to pierce Arael's AT Field. When they used it against Ramiel it had all the power of Japan funneled into the shot.

Which is probably the biggest reason it was never used again. They would be shutting down Japan every couple days to use the rifle, and they couldn't afford to do that. Who knows what heavy usage would do to the nation's power grid, also. Start blowing generators and wasting power stations and the rifle becomes totally useless.

And yes, the rifle did work the one time against Ramiel. It was still experimental though, so they couldn't be positive it would work again. Banking your entire operation on one clean snipe shot is great, but if the rifle fails to work, that would put them in a bad situation.


Pretty much this. Also if a whole country were to shut off it's power every couple days it would have horrible after effects I assume.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:58 am

Over use of that method might over charge the circuits to the point where they wouldn't work at all anymore. Then there wouldn't be anymore positron rifle strategy anyway.

Best to just quickly find the less taxing solution than to use up everything at once.

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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:45 am

NAveryW wrote:And remember, if you're about to say "It's just a cartoon, don't think too much about it," you're missing the point of this subforum.

At one point you need to realize that you can't fanwank an in-universe explanation for everything, especially at those times when it's clearly evident that the production of the show itself required some things to be done.

Monster-of-the-week gets boring if you use the same weapon every time. While some people out there don't really classify Evas themselves as mecha, Evangelion is still a most proper mecha show. Its influences are quite obvious and also are its intention to do things differently. Do note that every battle is pretty much unique. Not every angel is a giant monster that walks into town exploding things only to be finished off by CHOUDENJI SPIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN like in the good old days. We have enemies in all four terrain types of SRW, underwater, on the ground, in the air and in space. Then as a bonus we also get a battle in LIQUID HOT MAGMA and another one against germs. Sometimes the stock weapon like the Pallet Rifle doesn't work, and later to the amazement of the audience it actually does! Sometimes things go just as planned and other times they require improvisation on Misato’s or the pilots’ side. Each battle is has it’s own mood and pacing ranging from the upbeat Dance Like You Want to Win and Sahaquiel chase, through the ridiculously tension-building h4x by Ritsuko, all the way to exhibitionism badassery of The Beast and tearing things to little gibs.

Despite what some people prefer to think, the primary objective of Evangelion as an anime is entertainment. GAINAX, as a studio staffed by fans of animation, likes to have fun. Evangelion would have been remarkably boring if all the battle decisions were made on the basis of simplest, cleanest solution. Why reuse the positron rifle from three weeks ago when you can have Keisuke Watanabe and Yutaka Nakamura animated a synchronized battle and at the same time have an excuse to make Shinji and Asuka wear tights? Oh, and you can fit in character development too! Do you really wanna pass up on all the beautiful animation by Yoh Yoshinari, Mitsuo Iso, Masayuki, and many, many other creative people simply because you want the battle plans in a mecha show to be more rational?

If you want rational, try looking at a show for what it is, not for what you want it to be. But I guess if people take that advice the activity here will plunge to a minute fraction of what it is now.
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Postby Holy Diver » Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:27 pm

This is a problem that is freqently found in most fictional military operations. The easiest way to defeat an opponent is frequently not used, and is replaced with a complex plan that would be tactically and strategically unsound. For example, in Star Wars V, Darth Vader could have easily had his fleet perform an orbital bombardment and turn Hoth into molten slag. But he didn't because George Lucas thought it would have been more fun for the viewer to have an army of AT-ATs land on the planet's surface and fight the Rebels on their terms. While it was a fun battle sequence, it just wasn't very well thought out on military terms.
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Postby Defectron » Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:02 pm

In the IRC, someone (I can't remember who) suggested that SEELE would prevent them from using the positron canon for the sake of keeping the Evas necessary and allowing them to complete the MPEs. In response to that, I say that Misato, who was in charge of coming up with battle strategies, did not know about the MPEs until episode 24, nor of SEELE's intentions. Thus, she would have at least attempted use of the positron canon even if SEELE stopped her somehow.


That was me, my response was that she probably did try doing it offscreen but seele stopped her with some random political bullshit or something.
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Postby NAveryW » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:13 pm

TMBounty_Hunter wrote:
NAveryW wrote:And remember, if you're about to say "It's just a cartoon, don't think too much about it," you're missing the point of this subforum.

At one point you need to realize that you can't fanwank an in-universe explanation for everything, especially at those times when it's clearly evident that the production of the show itself required some things to be done.
The point isn't to justify everything, but to determine if something can be justified and, if not, if it's a plothole, an error in judgment, etc. There are several things in NGE that can't be completely justified, and this thread is just to determine if this is one of them.
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Postby Axell » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:07 pm

Didnt they reuse it against Arael? Also i think they had a low power version in some other battles like israfel

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Postby Logan Payne » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:41 pm

The only reason it was used in the first place was there were no other options, and Ramiel was anchored down and, for all we know, it broke afterwards.

-Paperwork
-Uncertainty
-Unwieldy
-The Evas have rifles of various makes and sizes
-The energy required to operate (especially at Operation Yashima levels) is difficult to setup the infrastructure for.

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Postby Axell » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:48 pm

well israfel was incapacitated for a few days, they easily could have prepared another rifle for that

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Postby wonderluster » Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:24 pm

Agreed....Wait, if the Angel was really messed up healing for the time being, why didnt they just have the Evas go in there and kick the hell outa it? Were they being repaired at the time?
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Postby IrkenEvangelion » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:01 pm

Correct. Asuka and Shinji had a week to learn the dance because that's how long it took for the Evas to be repaired.
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