The Great Episode 24' Plot Hole / Fanwank Thread

[Reichu]

CHALLENGE:

Correct the plothole and account for all details (EVA-02 fusion, etc.) by making a minimum number of canonical modifications. Fanwank to your heart's content.

First working solution gets "Biggest Eva Dork Ever" award.

[cat42]

Temporal magic.


Did I win?

[Anonymous_Evafan]

CHALLENGE:

Correct the plothole and account for all details (EVA-02 fusion, etc.) by making a minimum number of canonical modifications. Fanwank to your heart's content.

I tell ya it can't be done unless you want to recruit Fuzzy or Zuggy and I think we know where everyone stands on that.

First working solution gets "Biggest Eva Dork Ever" award.

DO NOT WANT

[Reichu]

I tell ya it can't be done unless you want to recruit Fuzzy or Zuggy and I think we know where everyone stands on that.

Oh, you give up so easily! Anything's possible if you fanwank and rewrite enough. Just look at DotS.

- The original version seems to make a big deal out the Mistaken Identity. Well, there doesn't seem to be any possible way to salvage that without taking away everything Kaworu knows about himself and the origin of the Evas, and common sense, etc., etc. (Uhh... nevermind what Kaji started earlier. Kaworu is too good to fall for that.) So he'd know Lilith's down there in advance and need to have a reason (or reasons) to take EVA-02 down there.

- Seele need to have a specific purpose in mind for Kaworu aside from just getting killed, and they need to feel confident that Kaworu won't be able to just fuck them over. They've mislead Kaworu in some way or another. I've considered that perhaps they needed Kaworu to collect the souls of the dead at the lake (OH NO THAT) for some Instrumentality-related purpose and then do something with them.

- EVA-02. The surface-level reason for using her was to compensate for his pathetic little Lilim-body -- his Angel-powers are limited to a kickass defensive ATF, some psychokinesis, Eva puppet-magic, and, uh... yeah. But the OTHER reason was for one of the possibilities he was mulling over. Kaworu was a bit indecisive that day, see. One of the things he might've done was have EVA-02 eat him so that he could be a she again and back in a proper body. Kyoko? Well, her "duuuuurrrrrr" state would be enough to let Kaworu get in, and, if souls are living things, why shouldn't you be able to kill them? "Take that bitch; this body is mine."

EVA-02 becomes Adam Mark II. With the souls of the dead Angels on board, as well, birthing them again is a piece of cake. (These are "established souls", so their DNA is metabiologically encoded; all they need to do is "fertilize" Adam's ova. A new beginning for everybody!)

I think there's more than that, but I dunno how entertaining this could possibly be. </disclaimer>

[Anonymous_Evafan]

I tell ya it can't be done unless you want to recruit Fuzzy or Zuggy and I think we know where everyone stands on that.

Oh, you give up so easily! Anything's possible if you fanwank and rewrite enough. Just look at DotS.

But DotS made sense at the time. Either Kaworu is just plain stupid or there is no possible way to fix it.

[Sailor Star Dust]

DotS??

And yeah, although I guess it doesn't work, I rather like Ornette Coleman's theory. He should win the "Biggest Eva Dork Ever" award by default. ...Or, you, Reichu, as you seem to know every single thing about Eva that's to be known. I dunno how you do it. :shock: Also, it's cool how you're more a fan of the Eva units and Angels than anything else, that does seem to be kinda rare with fans. Is Kaworu your favorite Angel (or character, for that matter)?

Anyway, who knows? Maybe Anno-sensei will be kind and directly address this in Rebuild??

[MaggotMaster]

OR PERHAPS KAWORU WAS ACTING STUPID JUST TO PISS SEELE OFF.

I think we can agree this is one of the biggest if not THE biggest plothole in Evangelion, at least everything else can make sense if you fanwank a lot.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

I think we can agree this is one of the biggest if not THE biggest plotholes in Evangelion, at least everything else can make sense if you fanwank a lot.

QFT

[MaggotMaster]

It's also one of the most obvious, I noticed it the first time I watched the NPC version 24', when Kaworu was like "huh this isn't Adam, whoops" I was like "hurrr SEELE already told you you dimwit"

[Ornette]

DotS??

Duel of the Seeds. The battle between Adam and Lilith when she showed up, the outcome deciding which seed would have the planet. However, the CI seems to say it never happened, specifically, the Spear section.

[Ornette]

When he was talking about Adam, he wasn't refering to the white being in front of him, but he was working out, out loud, (and this next bit here is in fanwank^2 territory) why Seele sent him, why Gendo had Adam, and what the fuck is up with these Lilim, having stated earlier his confusion on the matter ("I can't understand"). The Eureka moment is when he realized it was Lilith in front of him.

Problem with Adam NOT being the White Giant In Front of Me is the bit where Kaworu squints and goes, "Chigau. Kore wa ... Lilith!" Chigau is literally "to be different", and it's often translated as "no". Kaworu is taking a closer look at the White Giant and saying, 'no, it's somebody else', more or else. That somebody is Lilith, as opposed to Adam.

Got a bit of help from rockthing. So the dialog in question:

Wareware ha hahatachi xxxxx Adam ni umare shimau Adam ha kaerare ni nara nai no ka na? Hito wo koroboshiteiru ........ chigau! kore Lilith da! .... sou you koto ka? Lilim?

jonlin:is he mistaking what he's seeing in front of him being Adam? or is he mistaking that he doesn't have to destroy humanity or something? ->THAT is totally NOT clear in the dialog
He IS saying that those born of Adam must (want to?) return to Adam and there is soemthing about killing of people... It could go either way, even in Japanese... the mistake being about killing all humanity or the mistake being that what he took for Adam is LIlith
<snip>
I think he's just realizing that he's looking at Lilith.... but I'm not as familiar with the character or plot as you or Reichu, so I may be missing out on some previously developed context.

Keep in mind rockthing hasn't seen the NPCs.
So I say to him at this point "what if the previously missing developed context is: Kaworu knows where Adam is and who Adam is?"

I think, ....
after watching the clip again
is that perhaps discovering that he's looking at Lilith IMPLIES that he also discoveres that humanity will not be destroyed
by realizing that it is LIlith he ALSO realizes that there is another possible outcome
However, I can't read anything other than that directly from the dialog....
<snip>
he's talking about Adam, but it IS cicumstantial that he happens to be in front of Lilith talking about Adam... that doesn't necessarily mean that he is mistaking Lilith for Adam. As you say, when Kaworu says, "wait a minute!" or "no"(in the subs) he could be referring to his own thought process OR to his misunderstanding of LIlith for Adam....he DOES say 'sou iu koto ka' as if he understands something that he didn't before..... but that could be because of recognizing Lilith or realizing that there was more than one scenario.... difficult to draw a definite conclusion

So it IS possible that he knew he wasn't looking at Adam from the start. Is it possible that the bit added in the NPC where they told Kaworu where Adam was and who Adam was, was intended to make that dialog in question less ambiguous? Meaning, before the NPCs people were thinking that Kaworu mistook Lilith for Adam, now after the NPC, since Kaworu now knows where Adam is, people have to come to another conclusion as to what Kaworu is realizing during that scene, and it ISN'T that the white thing in front of him isn't Adam. His realization is from his own instrospection and is sparked by the realization that this white thing is Lilith.

btw, this is the clip I had him watch: http://www.tesuji.org/ep24_kaworu.avi

This also brings more light to the Eva-02 thing. The usage of Eva-02, which he mentions right after his realization, probably does something bad, like destroy humanity. Him realizing that humanity doesn't have to be destroyed, he discards Eva-02 immediately and allows himself to be destroyed.

It's possible that Seele told him to take Eva-02 down there, and merge Eva-02 with whatever was down in Terminal Dogma. Kaworu knows that Seele wants a 3I. Kaworu thinks that the merging of Eva-02 with this white thing would destroy humanity, refering to Eva-02 as something born of Adam. Now that he realizes that this white thing is actually Lilith, the gears in his head starts to spin.

edit: for those who don't know, rockthing is a good friend of mine who's fluent in Japanese and has been living there for 7 or so years now, but has only watched NGE once, the OA version. He also helped with the NGE2 CI translations, the first draft thing.

[Reichu]

I'll have to think about that stuff you said, Ornette. Too much to compute at the moment... Requires realignment of too many gears...

...Or, you, Reichu, as you seem to know every single thing about Eva that's to be known.

Hah hah ha--

No.

I dunno how you do it.

What I do know is via (A) no life, (B) Aspieness, (C) resources, (D) having some Japanese at my disposal, and (E) no life.

Is Kaworu your favorite Angel (or character, for that matter)?

No, the great Yui-sama is my favorite character. For these purposes, I don't count Kaworu among the "Angels"; too albino black sheep. (Sachi and Zer are mah faves.) Kaworu just kinda has a "special place" as that little avatar of Adam who is constantly being subjected to my crazy whims.

Anyway, who knows? Maybe Anno-sensei will be kind and directly address this in Rebuild??

It won't count towards this particular argument if he does.

I think we can agree this is one of the biggest if not THE biggest plothole in Evangelion, at least everything else can make sense if you fanwank a lot.

The mechanics of Third Impact/Instrumentality/etc. Try THAT bitch on for size. (And too bad it's intertwined with a lot of the cryptic going-ons in that monster known as Episode #24.)

[BobBQ]

...Or, you, Reichu, as you seem to know every single thing about Eva that's to be known.

Hah hah ha--

No.

No. Reichu-sama knows every single thing about Eva than can be known, plus a great many things that cannot be known.

She's that good.

Pretending to return to the original topic, I stand by my assertion that E24' is simply a victim of sloppy writing.

[MaggotMaster]

I dunno how you do it.

What I do know is via (A) no life, (B) Aspieness, (C) resources, (D) having some Japanese at my disposal, and (E) no life.

I COULD SAY SOMETHING SIMILAR IF IT WASN'T FOR POINT D, I CAN'T EVEN SAY "LOL DONGS" IN Japanese BUT WHATEVER EITHER WAY LET'S GO ON WITH TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF EP 24'S EXTREMELY SLOPPY WRITING MMKAY

I think we can agree this is one of the biggest if not THE biggest plothole in Evangelion, at least everything else can make sense if you fanwank a lot.

The mechanics of Third Impact/Instrumentality/etc. Try THAT bitch on for size. (And too bad it's intertwined with a lot of the cryptic going-ons in that monster known as Episode #24.)

Key difference: Ep 24' is supposed to be coherent, the Instrumentality sequence is not, it's just supposed to be surrealistic, bizarre, and confusing.

[Szmitten]

Ornette wins a personal internet from me.

[Reichu]

I CAN'T EVEN SAY "LOL DONGS" IN Japanese

チンチン　（笑）

[MaggotMaster]

I CAN'T EVEN SAY "LOL DONGS" IN Japanese

チンチン　（笑）

The Japanese have an equivalent of lol?

RITERAR TRANSRATION PREASE

[NAveryW]

Alright, I've been lurking this board for quite a while, and finally decided to register because I keep having things to say.

Anyway, this bit of fanwank came out of nowhere and hit me; it seems rather simple if you think about it. It's completely different from Ornette's idea, but a lot simpler (not that it's necessarily the right one XD). Right. This one's also quite a bit of a fanwank, as there is no evidence to support this whatsoever. Still, I see no problems with it.

Anyway, Kaworu and Rei are "the same"; thus, either one of them can die and be revived as another clone. As you see in Rei III, the clone has no memory of what happened before ver earlier version's demise. My theory: whoops, Kaworu died... somehow... and a new one was created who was not informed of who Adam was. Maybe SEELE didn't feel like explaining all the complexities again.

Then again, I'm starting to see a couple of problems with this idea now... but I'm just going to post it before it seems completely impossible. :P

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Doubtful, Kaworu knew he was Adam. Rei on the other hand was running from Lilith. What differences are there between them? Rei had died twice by the time they met and I doubt Kaworu had died at all since he knew about Adam. When he said they were the same he meant they were SOL's in Lilim form.

[NAveryW]

Doubtful, Kaworu knew he was Adam. Rei on the other hand was running from Lilith. What differences are there between them? Rei had died twice by the time they met and I doubt Kaworu had died at all since he knew about Adam. When he said they were the same he meant they were SOL's in Lilim form.

Y-... yeah, I know, I'm just saying that if Rei can be revived and remember nothing, then the same can happen to Kaworu.

Come to think of it, doesn't that mean that SEELE could have just revived Kaworu after Shinji killed him? O_O