“Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

[zlink64]

I also don't think Arael did any raping in the entirety of this scene. The way Arael did things was surprisingly... I don't want to say 'fair', but something like "lawyer-esque." He was just presenting evidence to Asuka which she was previously in denial of. She had previously been telling herself that she was an adult who has no need for a mother, so Arael masqueraded as Kyoko and made her admit that it was an act and she really was still a child.
Next Arael moves on to Asuka's relationship with others. That's the "I can live on my own!" scene.

When Asuka says that she's been defiled, I don't think the angel is the guilty party. It just reminded her of something she had been denying.

This a bit weird because mind rape is not a real thing but I think most people would agree that lines like these would make "mind rape" an accurate description of what happen to Asuka, especially in light of how Rei dies. Angels like to rape apparently or at least don't get that it's fucked up:

"don't look inside my mind"

"stop it! stop it already!"
And then being forced to experience a proto-insturmentlity like experience where she is depicted as naked afterwards.

Then say "Iv'e been defiled" and cries.

Also this just crossed my mind. This Idea that Anno would be extremely subtle because he wouldn't be able to show it. I get that for the show but why wouldn't it be mentioned in the movie where we see a kid jerk off to a naked girl and make out with an older woman plus tons of scenes/shots with naked people in sex positions involving Shinji? Like it's strange that we wouldn't get explicit mention of it at all, or atleast lines about it like lines about Misato x Shinji, considering everything else that is bought up. If Asuka wasn't so central to that movie I could buy it maybe but given how important that relationship is it just seems very weird if it were the case.

[anonymaus]

This a bit weird because mind rape is not a real thing but I think most people would agree that lines like these would make "mind rape" an accurate description of what happen to Asuka, especially in light of how Rei dies. Angels like to rape apparently or at least don't get that it's fucked up:

"don't look inside my mind"

"stop it! stop it already!"

Then say "Iv'e been defiled" and cries.

Asuka never mentions her 'mind' specifically anywhere in the whole sequence. "kokoro" can mean heart/mind/soul depending on context.
The intended surface level understanding of the scene is obviously that it's a 'mindrape' she's talking about.
The surface level understanding of a scene in Evangelion is often not the correct one. Somebody who watches Unit 01's first berserk, on the first watching, thinks that Shinji is the one doing it and he's using some kind of Gary Stu 'special power.' Of course, on subsequent watchings we know that Shinji had nothing to do with it.

Evangelion is filled with scenes that almost make sense when you reach the surface level understanding of them, and then make perfect sense when you reach the final understanding of them. It never really made sense that Asuka would apologize to Kaji for being 'psychically defiled', did it? But it makes a lot of sense that she would feel that way about a willful sexual encounter.

Also this just crossed my mind. This Idea that Anno would be extremely subtle because he wouldn't be able to show it. I get that for the show but why wouldn't it be mentioned in the movie where we see a kid jerk off to a naked girl and make out with an older woman plus tons of scenes/shots with naked people in sex positions involving Shinji? Like it's strange that we wouldn't get explicit mention of it at all, or atleast lines about it like lines about Misato x Shinji, considering everything else that is bought up. If Asuka wasn't so central to that movie I could buy it but given how important that relationship is it just seems very weird if it where the case.

I never said that Anno couldn't show them unambiguously having sex because he's worried about being censored or that there would be moral outrage from the audiences. Somebody else made that point, not me.
I said that Anno couldn't unambiguously show them having sex because it would destroy the appeal of the show for a large chunk of the fanbase who didn't want Shinji to have some kind of relationship with Asuka, and wanted it to be with some other character like Kaworu or Rei instead.

Shinji's relationship with others is kept intentionally vague for marketing reasons. Anno throws tiny clues that the protagonist could end up with basically all of the main cast, even Kaji. This is so that the show will maintain the attention of people who have different tastes.

[zlink64]

Asuka never mentions her 'mind' specifically anywhere in the whole sequence. "kokoro" can mean heart/mind/soul depending on context.
The intended surface level understanding of the scene is obviously that it's a 'mindrape' she's talking about.
The surface level understanding of a scene in Evangelion is often not the correct one. Somebody who watches Unit 01's first berserk, on the first watching, thinks that Shinji is the one doing it and he's using some kind of Gary Stu 'special power.' Of course, on subsequent watchings we know that Shinji had nothing to do with it.


I never said that Anno couldn't show them unambiguously having sex because he's worried about being censored or that there would be moral outrage from the audiences. Somebody else made that point, not me.
I said that Anno couldn't unambiguously show them having sex because it would destroy the appeal of the show for a large chunk of the fanbase who didn't want Shinji to have some kind of relationship with Asuka, and wanted it to be with some other character like Kaworu or Rei instead.

Shinji's relationship with others is kept intentionally vague for marketing reasons. Anno throws tiny clues that the protagonist could end up with basically all of the main cast, even Kaji. This is so that the show will maintain the attention of people who have different tastes.

Heart/mind/soul it doesn't really matter point is she experienced a metaphysical kind of fictional rape. You are going to have to make a compelling case as to why your way of seeing is better than what I imagine is the way most people would or why it'd be wrong. You haven't. And again Like freakyfilmfan4ever said when you start looking at the theory more it starts to lose it's legs. That being said like you can still have your opinion, I just think ur wrong.

Also I know it wasn't your point, was just pointing it out since it was mentioned in the thread.

[Asuka'sBigBrother]

Have you never been around teenagers?

As a teenager I'm willing to bet I've spent vastly more time around teenagers than you have recently(assuming you aren't a teenager). Teenagers don't have sex with people they won't even hold.


I have no idea how you think you can use reaistic and normal behavior as the basis of an argument for Asuka and Shinji anyway...

I also want to point out that the moaning during Fly me to the Moon is in episode 16, the one that ends with Shinji in hospital and Asuka outside his room, watching the video I got the impression that it was supposed to be on episode 15.

And the case for the theory just got a lot weaker.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Throughout the whole of NGE, Shinji is lusting after Asuka.
I'm too lazy to make a collage of all the times he's clearly staring at her breasts, but it happens at least four or five times.
There's an entire scene in instrumentality about it.

3)

I don't think it would be rape. I think Shinji would've behaved similarly to how he did during the kiss. And I think the sex happened after the kiss, not before. Probably in the middle of the night.

Shinji lusts after Misato as well, as evidenced in Ep 20.

Episode 15 doesn’t exposit the events of the middle of the night. And nothing in Ep 16 (the episode that spends most of its time in Shinji’s head) suggests that his relationship with Asuka has changed significantly since the last we saw him.

To suggest that Shinji had sex almost undermines the entire last half of the TV series, honestly, as the subject is always handled as a distant possibility to Shinji. Again, Anno is a smart cookie. If he wanted to convey that Shinji had sex, he would have handled it similarly as he did in his work in Kare Kano.

[Chuckman]

I was a high school teachers. Two kids who won't hold each other ending up having sex would not faze me at all. Sex can be and often is divorced entirely from emotional intimacy.

I'm thinking of Shinji's reception to Misato's sexual advances in Episode 23, and cannot imagine Shinji reacting any other way with any other girl or woman. (Keep in mind that Misato had been establishing herself to Shinji as a playfully sexual being since Episode 1, therefore keeping herself as primarily a sexual being in the mind of Shinji.) Shinji's reaction to other sexual advances by other people probably wouldn't be very positive, even if it was from Asuka. In fact, sexual propositions tend to alienate him even more from the ladies. (Note that he kept a healthy relationship with Rei for the longest in the series, and that was because she was the only person he saw as a mother figure. If someone presents themselves to Shinji in a sexual way, he tends to distance himself from them if they attempt to physically act upon it.)

The crux of this theory is that they had sex in Episode 15, well before the events of 23. It makes perfect sense to me that Shinji would shy away from Misato without, earlier, having shied away from Asuka.

I think it's incorrect to say Shinji is sex negative. He knows what sex is, he's aware of sex, and he wants to have it and have sexual pleasure. To argue otherwise is judging his behavior against the Western teenager stereotype found in raunch comedies like American Pie or whatever, that teenage boys what to fuck everyone and everything and in particular want to sleep with adult women. This is a really simplistic and toxic viewpoint on young male sexuality. Shinji didn't reject Misato because he rejects sex permanently forever. He was in a time in his life when sex would have no interest in him, and was receiving sexual advances from a confused, frightened, and desperate woman who was in a position of power over him and was reeling over the loss of her long-time on-and-off boyfriend who was also a parental figure to Shinji.

A kid isn't sex negative because he doesn't want to fuck his foster mom who just lost his foster dad and propositions him by invading his own space while he's in emotional turmoil himself.

Shinji didn't reject Asuka either. He reacts poorly to her mixed signals. She did not hold him during the kiss, either, she grabbed his nose and held it shut and made the whole thing feel like mockery. Something could have easily happened later that night -whether he took the hint of her obviously displaying her breasts or not- that played off what we actually see in the episode. A big part of this theory is Asuka taking the lead anyway.

A precocious girl who is too horny to think straight pushes an immature socially awkward boy into sex with neither of them really knowing what to expect to it. It feels good but neither one of them can tell what they really want or what's going on; Shinji lays there thinking the good stuff stops if he does anything, is shocked by what she's doing, and Asuka is looking for a romantic connection that just isn't happening. Their first times are confusing and awkward and leave them with intensely mixed feelings. As first times often do.

Them boning one night doesn't solve the hedgehog's dilemma or in any way preclude it. It clearly makes things worse for both of them.

[Asuka'sBigBrother]

I was a high school teachers. Two kids who won't hold each other ending up having sex would not faze me at all. Sex can be and often is divorced entirely from emotional intimacy.

But holding someone can also be entirely divorced from emotional intimacy. Holding someone is a physical act, much like sex. There are potential reaasons for Shinji and Asuka to see things differently, but a normal highschool who isn't attracted enought to someone to hold them isn't going to be attracted enough to have sex with them.

What about this is out of character, anyway?

Asuka has a clear Electra thing going on with Misato and Kaji; there’s a mother daughter father dynamic at work, and Asuka sees her dependence on Misato as a threat to her individuality and independence. She doesn’t want a family but she’s being pushed into one anyway. It would make sense for her to lash out by having sex with Shinji, who is son, brother, and husband to Misato wrapped all up in one person. Plus, having sex with him clearly establishes that he is not her brother and he is not family.

Fair.

Asuka's trauma regarding the kiss now makes sense

That scene worked fine with or without this scene, As this sex scene wasn't given attention by the writers, it's not remotely important to the story. With or without the scene, the meanings of all the scenes related to it have the same significances.

It also adds a hell of a lot to their final interaction ag the end of the film.

Elaborate. What would this add to the scene that wouldn't have been threre already as a result of the kiss scene?

This is a well supported theory with a great deal of textual evidence to back it up

Uh, what? The only evidence supporting it is a instrumentality scene that may or may not be a memory. Asuka smiling afterward and Shinji being cocky would make just as much sense with or without the sex scene as a result of the kissing scene. Asuka putting up a front, Shinji feeling the same artifical pride. The credit scene was from a seperate episode. The voice of the girl offering Asuka a teddy bear was that of a gradeschool girl being nice(feigned kindness admittedly), not of someone having sex.

There's only one piece of evdience, and it's only possible evidence. So the theory here is nothing more than a possibility. A rather questionable one at that given it wasn't given the attention such a moment would warrant.

I'll concede on the out of character point and even the potential value of such a scene, but as it's barely noticable and is given no attention, it remains a rather pointless afddition which ends up serving the purpose of uneeded fan service rather than adding to the story.

The good thing is, while the scene is pointless, it doesn't really do anything to impact the series, so while it doesn't add anything, it doesn't hurt anything either. As a result, whether or not it really happened doesn't really matter to me.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Honestly, the sex theory works better if there wasn’t a kiss scene in Ep 15 upon which the writers were using to hinge Shinji’s behavior in Ep 16. At that point you would need something absent from the narrative to explain Shinji’s actions in Ep 16. Given what we have in the story as is, adding extra-narrative material is pretty needless and nonsensical.

I’m not saying that Shinji is sex negative. I’m just saying that everything we learn about him and Asuka suggests that they wouldn’t have bumped uglies without experiencing emotions other than what we saw. He seems awfully shy about the whole thing, as is explicitly shown in Ep 20.

Besides, Asuka wouldn’t have had sex with Shinji after being turned down by Kaji that same night. (Hell, I probably couldn’t have sex for a while after being turned down by Kaji, and I’m completely straight.) Asuka wants to have sex with an ADULT to prove she’s not a kid anymore. In her mind, that’s the whole point of it for her, as is shown in all of the surrounding episodes contextualizing Ep 15. Being turned down by Kaji, in this context, is going to shut off anything hormonal and send her in a depression for the rest of the evening.

[zlink64]

There also I think is a bit of sex bias going on here. The idea that sex is a better explanation than a kiss by virtue of it being "more" or "kissing is not enough". I think that's worth pointing out. Asking yourself if you have this sex bias.

[anonymaus]

Honestly, the sex theory works better if there wasn’t a kiss scene in Ep 15 upon which the writers were using to hinge Shinji’s behavior in Ep 16. At that point you would need something absent from the narrative to explain Shinji’s actions in Ep 16. Given what we have in the story as is, adding extra-narrative material is pretty needless and nonsensical.

If you're going to have two characters in your show have sex, but only hint at it subtly, you will need a justification for their then-onwards strange behavior. A kiss works, and can be shown.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

If you're going to have two characters in your show have sex, but only hint at it subtly, you will need a justification for their then-onwards strange behavior. A kiss works, and can be shown.

Anno showed sex subtly in Kare Kano. He did not in NGE. At this point, just like a dude trying to hit on women on a “girls night out” at a bar, we’re just trying to find sex where there is none.

[anonymaus]

There's plenty of evidence, but like I said, it's plausibly deniable by design. If you want to exercise that plausible deniability that's okay.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

There's plenty of evidence, but like I said, it's plausibly deniable by design. If you want to exercise that plausible deniability that's okay.

It’s not plausibly deniable by design, it’s contradictory to everything that contextualized Ep 15.

Unless, of course, contradictory storytelling is supposed to help facilitate this “plausible deniability.”

[Asuka'sBigBrother]

There's plenty of evidence,

*One piece of evdience, one possible piece of evidence

Honestly, the sex theory works better if there wasn’t a kiss scene in Ep 15 upon which the writers were using to hinge Shinji’s behavior in Ep 16. At that point you would need something absent from the narrative to explain Shinji’s actions in Ep 16. Given what we have in the story as is, adding extra-narrative material is pretty needless and nonsensical.

:up:

The kiss scene makes this supposed sex scene redundant.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

^ There's also the fact that Asuka and/or Shinji having sex consensually is, based solely on how the characters are established and developed throughout the series, an arc ending event for both characters, and that the characters should have no further development beyond the point during which they have consensual-yet-awkward sex.

Shinji has issues with his relationship with women in NGE, mainly stemming from the lack of a maternal relationship he's had in his life. (I know a lot of this sounds like debunked Freudian theories, and a lot of it is debunked Freudian theories, but those theories tend to be integral to the story-telling Anno used in NGE, so bear with me.) There are several scenes throughout Eva that flat-out convey under no uncertain terms that Shinji's maturity in most aspects of his life, including sexual, is a direct result of a lack of. mother figure and a seemingly neglectful father figure. (Episodes 1-2, 4, 12, 15, 16, 20, 24, and both EoTV and EoE give various evidences on the maternal-less aspects of Shinji's past and how it stunts his maturity, even for a teenager, both in general social interacts and sexual interactions.) Now, while I do believe that Shinji abandoned or buried his father complex in Episode 19, his mother complex is still an opened and festering wound throughout the rest of the series. This blocks him from actively exploring his sexuality beyond touching himself. Sex is unlikely for him in this series.

While Shinji is busy being developmentally stunted, Asuka is attempting to force early maturity. The show establishes very early on that she wants to present herself as an adult NOW, which is what fuels her infatuation with Kaji. (Episodes 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, 18, 22, 24, and both EoTV and EoE give various evidences towards these aspects of Asuka's character development.) Forcing early maturity (pre-mature maturity, if you will) actively blocks her off from respecting anyone her age. (Hell, the only reason why she went on a date to begin with in Episode 15 was because the person she went out with was "older.") This interest in older males becomes her uncontrollable fixation throughout the series. When her pride is hurt in Episode 10, she doesn't want to be seen in front of Kaji. When she sees Kaji in Episode 15, she pushed everything out of her way in order to try to be coy with him. When she calls out in pain in Episode 22, she calls out to Kaji. When he attempts suicide in Episode 24, she's pushed over the edge after several major perceived failings on her part because she learned of Kaji's death. Her having sex with anyone her age would have irrefutably been framed by NGE's story-telling to be either the result of or a major step towards resolving those conflicts she has about her maturity and being on the road to getting over Kaji as a trophy to her supposed early maturity.

If Asuka had sex with Shinji (or even Toji or Kensuke or anyone her age, for that matter), it would have been evidence of Asuka growing past the forced early maturity phase in her character development, Unfortunately, this is a phase she never really gets past, so the odds of her having sex with Shinji in either Episode 15 or in the background of the opening title sequence for Episode 16 and not getting over Kaji are approximately 3,720/1.

[Blockio]

Asuka's obsession with being considered adult aside, what a lot of people (sorry, too lazy to sort out all the quotes) who take the scene with Misato in Ep. 23 as evidence against this theory, arguing that if Shinji doesnt want to have sex with Misato, he would never have sex with Asuka, ignore/not take into consideration are the things that happened beforehand.

Ep. 15: The most recent angel, Ireul, was the first angel in the show who did not kill anyone or even hurt someone physically/psychically(is that a word?) for that matter, and Shinji didnt have to pilot Eva in combat, only Unit 00 for the exchange synch test (which admittedly went horribly wrong, but not nearly on the scale that other things go wrong in the series)

Ep. 23: Rei has just sacrificed herself and Unit 00 to save Shinji, Asuka is a mentally broken down mess after Arael and appears to be out of the fight for good, Shinji himself is still scarred from being trapped inside Leliel and Kaji, one of the only people he was somewhat able to connect to, got killed as well.

I think its safe to say that if ever, right before Leliel (which to me will always be the turning point of the series) would be the time for Shinji to have sex with anyone ever, both from in-show logic (not going to repeat what has been said multiple times before by others) and from the perspective of storytelling, seeing how Leliel is the point where everything starts going downhill, it would only make sense that the best experience (the climax if you excuse the pun) would happen right before it.

To sum it up, while some pretty valid evidence against this theory has been brought up, this point isnt really one of them, simply due to the circumstances that the scenes happened in.

[Chuckman]

Sex with Shinji is a strike at Misato which affirms hr adulthood. Also, don’t get hung up on sex with Shinji. It would be in character for her to have sex for sex’s sake to prove her maturity (since sex is a thing adults do, which is a recurring theme in fiction and in real life teenagers’ mental lives) and end up complicating things when it is awkward and possibly painful yet pleasant at the same time, and her unacknowledged desire for signals of intimacy from Shinji going unfulfilled leave her twisted up and confused.

Also, what Shinji would initiate isn’t really relevant. The theory pretty much assumes Asuka initiates this, which makes sense for both of them.

He isn’t so messed up he’d push the girl he’s clearly interested in off of him if she initiated and led things. Shinji has mental issues but he’s a pretty normal kid considering the world he lives in. He seems bonkers for two reasons: everyone frames their discussion of him around his reactions to extreme, borderline comical levels of trauma and pressure late in the series, and he’s a pretty normal person and not the superheroic slogan-yelling teen mecha show protagonist.

[Blockio]

Sex with Shinji is a strike at Misato which affirms hr adulthood. Also, don’t get hung up on sex with Shinji. It would be in character for her to have sex for sex’s sake to prove her maturity (since sex is a thing adults do, which is a recurring theme in fiction and in real life teenagers’ mental lives) and end up complicating things when it is awkward and possibly painful yet pleasant at the same time, and her unacknowledged desire for signals of intimacy from Shinji going unfulfilled leave her twisted up and confused.

Also, what Shinji would initiate isn’t really relevant. The theory pretty much assumes Asuka initiates this, which makes sense for both of them.

He isn’t so messed up he’d push the girl he’s clearly interested in off of him if she initiated and led things. Shinji has mental issues but he’s a pretty normal kid considering the world he lives in. He seems bonkers for two reasons: everyone frames their discussion of him around his reactions to extreme, borderline comical levels of trauma and pressure late in the series, and he’s a pretty normal person and not the superheroic slogan-yelling teen mecha show protagonist.

That was basically my point, in a different wording. (I took the second paragraph for granted and left it out, which made it kinda incoherent, Ill admit that)

Ill try rephrasing what I mean, maybe that will clear things up:
Under the cicrumstances of Ep 15, there is no reason for Shinji to refuse having sex with Asuka and her initiating it is within the realm of possibility, seeing how she was seeking proximity to him before at nighttime (oh god that grammar, Im sorry), but since he still is a human being, it would be more concerning to me if he didnt refuse Misatos offer in Ep. 23, given that Rei has just died the other day and Kaji wasnt dead for long either (correct me if I get something wrong here, its been a while since I last watched the final few episodes) and generally everything has gone to sh*t in rapid succession, so excluding Misato, who has sex to cope with pressure and trauma, its totally reasonable to not be in the mood for sex after such events

Hopefully that was a bit less of a mess than my last response

[zlink64]

You guys realize the theory is using words "do you love me?" as proof they had sex and she was upset about it but at the same time happy the next morning apparently. The theory itself even when taken as truth contradicts itself. This would have a really weird domino effect on other things.

[Blockio]

You guys realize the theory is using words "do you love me?" as proof they had sex and she was upset about it but at the same time happy the next morning apparently. The theory itself even when taken as truth contradicts itself. This would have a really weird domino effect on other things.

While this part is certainly true, its only the line that gave the op the idea - the rest of the evidence still is too strong to simply neglect altogether