Kaji on the phone?

[Bagheera]

Why do you keep pretending like this is up for debate?

Why do you keep acting like it matters either way? The important part is that he most likely was not involved in the Jet Alone sabotage, and that even if he was it isn't reasonable to blame him for Misato putting herself in danger. You have no reason to be angry with him over the Jet Alone incident.

They say that because at that point the watcher isn't supposed to know who the person on the other line is, the intent is for Kaji to be an unidentified individual. Only upon second or third viewing are we supposed to figure it out.

That is not how the Essential books work.

[mammaluser]

You do know Kaji and Gendo talked on the phone in Episode 8 right? I don't see how this is somehow proof that Kaji couldn't be on the phone, since he was on the ship. They animated a whole scene of Kaji talking to Gendo on the phone in episode 8

I do know i was just posting something that is on the eva geeks wiki, im not taking away the posibility of Kaji being the person on the phone talking to Gendo, im just giving some information that i tought it would be helpful.

[Reichu]

Pwhodges: Eva Chronicle is not the end all be all of supplemental sources. May as well object to Seeds of Life and FAR because those two books you own manage not to mention them...

[Bagheera]

Pwhodges: Eva Chronicle is not the end all be all of supplemental sources. May as well object to Seeds of Life and FAR because those two books you own manage not to mention them...

True, but I would rate it a bit more highly than a film book or the BD book. But it's not like the whole discussion turns on the truth of the matter, so might as well be agnostic about it.

[Kvanu]

Even if there was no confirmation from the film book and the BD booklet (the BD booklet is the most recent one that comes DIRECTLY from Khara/Anno, so how can someone say that it isn't conclusive on the matter) it's just so obvious to a keen viewer based on context that the caller must be Kaji. Gendo talking about spy things with a random grunt who talks and sounds exactly like Kaji, voiced by Kaji's va, when Gendo has only ever used Kaji as his personal lackey, makes no sense.

[Reichu]

True, but I would rate it a bit more highly than a film book or the BD book.

Bet if the film books and Blu-Ray extras were in English you wouldn't say that so easily. :p

[Bagheera]

Bet if the film books and Blu-Ray extras were in English you wouldn't say that so easily. :p

Well, I was saying it when they were all in Japanese, so I don't see how that'll change when they're all translated . . .

Really, I put Chronicle on about the same level as the CRC and Groundwork books, while I put the BD books on about the same level as the CRC. It's all Gainax/Khara stuff, but Chronicle seems to have more of an insider line to what was really going on whereas the BD books could have been made by just about anyone in the company. I don't know enough about the film books to really judge them (which is funny, since I actually have several of them, but I haven't done much more than poke through them).

[Kvanu]

Well, I was saying it when they were all in Japanese, so I don't see how that'll change when they're all translated . . .

Really, I put Chronicle on about the same level as the CRC and Groundwork books, while I put the BD books on about the same level as the CRC. It's all Gainax/Khara stuff, but Chronicle seems to have more of an insider line to what was really going on whereas the BD books could have been made by just about anyone in the company. I don't know enough about the film books to really judge them (which is funny, since I actually have several of them, but I haven't done much more than poke through them).

But the BD Booklet is an addition of material fact (that Kaji was on the phone), not an omission of fact (not saying who it was) Regardless of who wrote it, it would need to be 100% right. And of course anyone involving in the BD remastering of NGE would be more of an insider than someone who wrote Chronicle.

[Reichu]

But the BD Booklet is an addition of material fact (that Kaji was on the phone), not an omission of fact (not saying who it was)

Yeah, definitely agree with this. Eva sources love to pad themselves out with "obvious non-information". I mean, seriously, how many times do we need to be told that such-and-such thing that wasn't unambiguously revealed in the show is "unknown", "uncertain" or whatever? Now, if we're actually TOLD something we didn't already know for sure, THAT'S actually significant. Sit up and pay attention for those ones.

Chronicle has plenty of omissions; this would hardly be the first and there's nothing loldeep about it. Tis interesting, however, that two sources so far apart in time -- one released around the time that Eva aired, and the other released last year -- are consistent on the Kaji/phone issue.

By the way, has it been mentioned here that it's totally Kaji's fault that the JSSDF knew Nerv's layout? It's totally Kaji's fault. :p

[pwhodges]

Only upon second or third viewing are we supposed to figure it out.

Remember that it was made as a TV series - one viewing and that's your lot for the foreseeable future.

Pwhodges: Eva Chronicle is not the end all be all of supplemental sources.

Didn't say it was; just another alternate source on a matter which is one of the least significant I can recall being debated here.

[Bagheera]

Regardless of who wrote it, it would need to be 100% right.

How does that follow???

And of course anyone involving in the BD remastering of NGE would be more of an insider than someone who wrote Chronicle.

And what leads you to that conclusion? The one's a technical issue while the other's a plot point; plenty of people involved in remastering the show likely had no input whatsoever on the show's plot.

I don't even know why this is a debate, since it doesn't matter one way or the other. But they logic you're using here is all kinds of screwy.

[Kvanu]

How does that follow??

The logic isn't screwy at all,it's actually perfectly linear. You just can't follow the logic. Two different things.

Reichu explained it well:

Yeah, definitely agree with this. Eva sources love to pad themselves out with "obvious non-information". I mean, seriously, how many times do we need to be told that such-and-such thing that wasn't unambiguously revealed in the show is "unknown", "uncertain" or whatever? Now, if we're actually TOLD something we didn't already know for sure, THAT'S actually significant. Sit up and pay attention for those ones.

Chronicle has plenty of omissions; this would hardly be the first and there's nothing loldeep about it. Tis interesting, however, that two sources so far apart in time -- one released around the time that Eva aired, and the other released last year -- are consistent on the Kaji/phone issue.

But basically an omission of fact means that they don't have to be held accountable for the answer, because they are not telling you anything. An addition of material fact means that the fact is 100% accurate, and that they can be held accountable for that fact, or else they'd just keep silent like they have on so many other things. Additions of material fact are deliberate.

By the way, has it been mentioned here that it's totally Kaji's fault that the JSSDF knew Nerv's layout? It's totally Kaji's fault. :p

I also thought this was obvious. Another thing to blame Kaji for: not only did he give Gendo Adam, facilitating Instrumentality, but JSSDF figured out Nerv's layout also thanks to his actions in the Blackout episode.

[Bagheera]

The logic isn't screwy at all,it's actually perfectly linear. You just can't follow the logic. Two different things.

No, it's not. You claim that, in order to be in the BD book, it has to be 100% accurate, but as we've seen with other guides accompanying the DVDs/films that is not a safe assumption (the RCB has a couple, for instance, which is why I mentioned it upthread). That book is not an infallible source, so the logic that anything in it must be 100% true regardless of who wrote it does not follow.

But basically an omission of fact means that they don't have to be held accountable for the answer, because they are not telling you anything. An addition of material fact means that the fact is 100% accurate, and that they can be held accountable for that fact, or else they'd just keep silent like they have on so many other things. Additions of material fact are deliberate.

But not necessarily correct, as we've seen with official Eva materials in the past. For all we know a staffer might have assumed it was Kaji based on the VA and nobody argued the point because it's an issue that simply doesn't matter.

I also thought this was obvious. Another thing to blame Kaji for: not only did he give Gendo Adam, facilitating Instrumentality, but JSSDF figured out Nerv's layout also thanks to his actions in the Blackout episode.

Given that Seele was pulling the JSSDF's strings and that Seele is also responsible for the creation of Nerv (and presumably all of Nerv's facilities) I think the notion that the JSSDF couldn't have done what they did without Kaji's help is speculative at best. The Adam embryo's a fair point though (although, in fairness, it's not like anything could have predicted that).

[Kvanu]

No, it's not. You claim that, in order to be in the BD book, it has to be 100% accurate, but as we've seen with other guides accompanying the DVDs/films that is not a safe assumption (the RCB has a couple, for instance, which is why I mentioned it upthread). That book is not an infallible source, so the logic that anything in it must be 100% true regardless of who wrote it does not follow.

For Christ's sake, talk about dense. It's a material fact in the biggest release of the source material that gets as close to the original as possible, and the fact was already obvious from the show itself. If the BD Booklet said, "Asuka is the pilot of Unit 02" you wouldn't go, "Well the BD Booklet isn't 100% accurate. Why? Because other books have been wrong in the past. (Nevermind that this is nonlinear logic, and you haven't mentioned any error in any addition of material fact in the past.) So, assuming that this is fact wouldn't be safe!"

But not necessarily correct, as we've seen with official Eva materials in the past. For all we know a staffer might have assumed it was Kaji based on the VA and nobody argued the point because it's an issue that simply doesn't matter.

Now you're just being irreverent for no reason. A staffer saying that Kaji was on the other line isn't an "assumption", it's the only reasonable conclusion that the show already gives us. That's like saying "Ritsuko and Gendo were having sex" is nothing but an assumption, because the show never showed them having sex onscreen and no one used the word sex. "Wait but Ritsuko said "used my body once? That could mean anything! Anything!"

Given that Seele was pulling the JSSDF's strings and that Seele is also responsible for the creation of Nerv (and presumably all of Nerv's facilities) I think the notion that the JSSDF couldn't have done what they did without Kaji's help is speculative at best. The Adam embryo's a fair point though (although, in fairness, it's not like anything could have predicted that).

No one is saying that JSSDF couldn't have done what they did without Kaji's help. (By the way, that's a REAL assumption you're making here.) The point is that Kaji helped, in a big way.

[Bagheera]

Kvanu: If you can't make your points without resorting to personal attacks it's probably best to give the discussion a rest.

As for this:

Nevermind that this is nonlinear logic, and you haven't mentioned any error in any addition of material fact in the past.

I have mentioned that, several times. The Red Cross Book was the theatrical guide for the End of Evangelion, and it contains a number of errors. Those errors do in fact relate to addition of material, and as such are directly relevant to the point at hand.

[Kvanu]

Kvanu: If you can't make your points without resorting to personal attacks it's probably best to give the discussion a rest.

As for this:

I have mentioned that, several times. The Red Cross Book was the theatrical guide for the End of Evangelion, and it contains a number of errors. Those errors do in fact relate to addition of material, and as such are directly relevant to the point at hand.

I haven't dished out any personal attacks so I'm not sure where you're bringing that from.

You keep saying you have mentioned it several times, but the only thing you keep mentioning is "The RCB has errors." That's not giving any examples, because examples are needed to make a comparison (Those "errors" could be translation errors, for Gods sake.) Furthermore the RCB having "errors" = The BD Booklet AND the film booklet, which are years apart from each other and both conclusive on the issue, having errors.

[Bagheera]

I haven't dished out any personal attacks so I'm not sure where you're bringing that from.

"Jesus Christ, talk about dense" is a personal attack.

You keep saying you have mentioned it several times, but the only thing you keep mentioning is "The RCB has errors." That's not giving any examples, because examples are needed to make a comparison (Those "errors" could be translation errors, for Gods sake.) Furthermore the RCB having "errors" = The BD Booklet AND the film booklet, which are years apart from each other and both conclusive on the issue, having errors.

Are you at all familiar with the red cross book? I ask because you wouldn't be making those speculations if you were. It's well-known around here, and those errors are not translation errors. They're just bad information. I would suggest googling for translations so you can read it yourself.

[Arcadia's legacy]

I'm not familiar with the book, and I'm curious as to what these errors actually are. Any examples?

[Bagheera]

I'm not familiar with the book, and I'm curious as to what these errors actually are. Any examples?

You can read it yourself here. Citing Lilith as the source of the Angels with no mention of Adam is the big one, though I'm sure Reichu has noted others in the past. And note that this is an accurate translation of the Japanese text -- it wasn't a translation error as it was with Manga's EoE dub.

Amusingly, the RCB is one of the few places Asuka's age is listed correctly -- since the movie takes place around late December/early January her birthday has already passed, and thus she actually is 14 at the time of the movie. This is in contrast to all other Eva materials, which list her age as 14 at the start of the series.

[Kvanu]

"Jesus Christ, talk about dense" is a personal attack.

Oh come on.

You can read it yourself here. Citing Lilith as the source of the Angels with no mention of Adam is the big one, though I'm sure Reichu has noted others in the past. And note that this is an accurate translation of the Japanese text -- it wasn't a translation error as it was with Manga's EoE dub.

Amusingly, the RCB is one of the few places Asuka's age is listed correctly -- since the movie takes place around late December/early January her birthday has already passed, and thus she actually is 14 at the time of the movie. This is in contrast to all other Eva materials, which list her age as 14 at the start of the series.

Aha! Now I know why you didn't want to list out any examples till now.

"Citing Lilith as the source of the Angels with no mention of Adam" is an OMISSION OF MATERIAL FACT. They're technically not wrong, they just left out the rest of the puzzle. They do this all the time. Like I said before, omissions of fact indicate that the staff is unwilling to be held accountable to a fact. They didn't say "Ramiel is the source of the Angels." - that would be an error in an addition of material fact.

Any errors of additions of material fact? Going once, going twice? You can't compare the two. They fact that on two separate occasions, they went out of their way to TELL us who was on the show (as if they show doesn't make it obvious enough) is critical.