Is there any solid evidence that Misato feels any sexual attraction to Shinji?

[Reichu]

EoTV recycles a whole lot of dialogue divorced from its original context for effect

I'm not sure this is actually true, plus you haven't made an argument for it being true in this instance. How would Shinji shouting "stop it" at what's going in Misato's "case" make more sense than a quick flashback to something quite relevant in context?

[gatotsu911]

I mean, you're the one making the jump from "innuendo exists in this scene that is intended to tell us about character psychology" to "in this scene Misato is literally trying to jump on Shinji's boner". There's a difference between an ambiguous suggestion and a concrete statement. It's hard to debate your reading when it simply doesn't allow for the presence of ambiguity, despite it being smeared all over the place.

Also: consider that you may be placing a bit too much stock in the specific wording of whatever translation you're going off of, considering Japanese language can be pretty vague and often has to be interpreted from context when translating to English.

[Sachi]

I mean, you're the one making the jump from "innuendo exists in this scene that is intended to tell us about character psychology" to "in this scene Misato is literally trying to jump on Shinji's boner". There's a difference between an ambiguous suggestion and a concrete statement. It's hard to debate your reading when it simply doesn't allow for the presence of ambiguity, despite it being smeared all over the place.

This seems like a strawman to me. I don't think anybody has been espousing the latter viewpoint, at least not in the way you present it. I think most people that think Misato was offering sex agree that it's rather ambiguous (it has to be; it was aired on television!), but upon analysis of the scene along with all the innuendos the idea appears to be supported.

[Monk Ed]

The notion that Misato was trying to do anything other than a motherly sort of cuddle (and compounding her awkwardness in assuming that role with that of a teen on the brink of manhood) mainly arises from extra-textual statements from the production staff. To my mind the sexual interpretation at that point undercuts the subsequent "adult kiss" scene in EoE, because it would follow on from him already having rebuffed her advances.

In light of what gatotsu has brought to the conversation, I think it's possible to interpret the scene in a way that preserves the power of the EoE scene while also retaining a sexual element. For example, even if Misato was offering herself, that doesn't mean Shinji realized it -- nor even Misato herself.

[gatotsu911]

If anything, I think it's more that Shinji perceived sexual tension or undertones in that situation while Misato did not (consciously, at least). I rewatched ep. 25 just for this thread (<3) and I think it supports this reading.

But again, the ambiguity of the scene is a crucial part of it - it's trying to bring us into the characters' heads, when they are both in a very distressed and uncertain state - and trying to frame it strictly in one way rather than acknowledging its host of innuendos and suggestions is, I think, cheapening it and doing it a disservice.

[zlink64]

So in ur opinion when did she become conscious of if not there. Like there is very little time between that scene and the end. And between that scene and the end the subject is never really referred to again in detail. Like it seems like you would have to say she randomly just became conscious of it at the end. And I get what you are saying about the scene's vagueness but that only seems to make sense to me if you look at the scene on it's own. If you connect the latter parts of the episode or the series it doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Like I'm not saying you are wrong but at the same time it is not a very persuasive view to have. I mean she would have to be at least partly aware of what she was doing during that scene for her monologue about the incident that she has right after to make sense.

[Bagheera]

This seems like a strawman to me. I don't think anybody has been espousing the latter viewpoint, at least not in the way you present it. I think most people that think Misato was offering sex agree that it's rather ambiguous (it has to be; it was aired on television!), but upon analysis of the scene along with all the innuendos the idea appears to be supported.

I would have to echo this sentiment. To me it seems like people are splitting some mighty fine hairs, and that it doesn't really matter if Misato went in there to jump Shinji or not -- what matters is that what she did was inappropriate, or at least was perceived as such by both of them, and that her efforts backfired spectacularly. The rest is just angels dancing on the head of a pin.

[Iuvenal]

If the tangent can be forgiven, didn't you have Asuka give Misato a verbal drubbing about that incident at some point in Ghosts?

[Bagheera]

If the tangent can be forgiven, didn't you have Asuka give Misato a verbal drubbing about that incident at some point in Ghosts?

Sure. Well, less that scene than the part in EoE, which is much less ambiguous. Shinji had words with her about it as well.

[gatotsu911]

I would have to echo this sentiment. To me it seems like people are splitting some mighty fine hairs, and that it doesn't really matter if Misato went in there to jump Shinji or not -- what matters is that what she did was inappropriate, or at least was perceived as such by both of them, and that her efforts backfired spectacularly. The rest is just angels dancing on the head of a pin.

I don't think it was inappropriate in any definable way, or even that Shinji necessarily consciously thought of it as such - it's an attempt at making a connection that backfires, and one of the reasons is Shinji's sexual paranoia at this point in the story. Misato responds to its failure by trying to connect with Pen-Pen (sexually?) and feeling similarly rebuffed. One of the principal themes of the Instrumentality sequence in which this is brought up again is Misato's failure at making connections with people and fear of rejection. Of course Misato's sexuality is an integral part of how she conducts herself and relates to people, but I think framing that scene as Misato explicitly making sexual advances toward Shinji is a very literal-minded and limiting interpretation of something far subtler. It's a worthwhile hair to split.

[zlink64]

I think you are trying say it's dangerous or misguided to take a literal interpretation but why? Like nothing you have said is necessarily untrue if you take a literal interpretation; what do you mean by cheapen if it doesn't change anything? Like nothing changes if I take your view but at the same time I have less reason to believe it when I consider the scene within the context of everything else for example:

Yes her hugging penpen wasn't sexual but when you get two human people who are not related that try to engage in "not feeling lonely" and they decide to cuddle or hold hands there is usually a lot of sexual undertones. Like when do two very lonely people of the opposite sex try to make each other not feel lonely and not at least think of f***king?

And given the emphasize the entire Evangelion show puts on the idea of making connections with sex and the idea of using people with sex it's seem like a literal take on that scene fits very well with Evangelion's view of sex.

By sexual emphasize I mean that 9/10 in this show when characters want to get closer to another character they want to do it by banging and when another character wants to use another character because they are lonely (the way Misato admits to wanting to do to Shinji in that scene) it involves sex; like when Shinji masturbates to Asuka because he is feeling lonely. Even in instrumentality when everyone was together the imagery of Rei and Shinji joining was literally reverse missionary style. Even when Kaworu tried to get close to Shinji, who is probably straight, the show still put emphasize on the physical intimacy. In Evangelion when people connect they do it through sex. So if I take Evangelion's views on sex/connection and take that into account with Misato, who was trying to connect with Shinji, plus all the other clues, I feel like your view just isn't very persuasive. Like why should I take your view other than "it's ambiguous" and "I feel like it cheapens things(not sure if you actually mean anything by this)"? And I'm not sure when exactly for you Misato became concious of her sexual attraction/desrie(?) to Shinji? I guess in EOE but then it would seem kinda random since if we take your view we never actually see her make the jump from unconscious to conscious and she kinda just kisses him out of no where.

[gatotsu911]

What I'm saying is, that's one possible reading of the scene but not the only one; the scene itself is open to interpretation and should be acknowledged as such.

[Bagheera]

What I'm saying is, that's one possible reading of the scene but not the only one; the scene itself is open to interpretation and should be acknowledged as such.

Isn't that implied when we say the scene is ambiguous?

[gatotsu911]

This argument reminds me of the whole "Did SEELE rape Ritsuko" debate, where the symbolic subtext is there but as a literal event it makes little to no sense in the context of the plot and would frankly be too tritely melodramatic even for Evangelion

[Bagheera]

This argument reminds me of the whole "Did SEELE rape Ritsuko" debate, where the symbolic subtext is there but as a literal event it makes little to no sense in the context of the plot and would frankly be too tritely melodramatic even for Evangelion

That's not quite the same, though, since that theory posits an act that happens offscreen while this does no such thing. Instead it's saying "Misato was maybe kinda going in this direction, and Shinji seemed really weirded out by it, so yeah." It's not just a failure to offer motherly comfort, and it's not just a fan invention, either -- IIRC Side B is pretty explicit about it. It's fair to question whether she was actually offering to sleep with him or just approaching him weirdly or maybe even didn't really know what she was doing, but I really do think you're acting like people are asserting far more than they actually are.

[Mr. Tines]

If anything, I think it's more that Shinji perceived sexual tension or undertones in that situation while Misato did not (consciously, at least). I rewatched ep. 25 just for this thread (<3) and I think it supports this reading.

Thinking back to my teenage years, I can see the normal run of "Mum, that's embarrassing!" reaction to being, in essence, treated like a little kid, being compounded when it's your sexy teacher doing it.

[BrikHaus]

If you just accept the fact that Misato is a slut who deals with her emotions through sex, then it seems pretty clear she was going to bang Shinji.

[Arcadia's legacy]

I imagine most would agree that it's a lot more complicated than that

[pwhodges]

In EoE it's clear that Misato is simply using sex to try to manipulate Shinji into action. Whether she thinks she, or he for that matter, would enjoy it is rather irrelevant given that she knows she'll die first anyway. However, in the earlier scene, it seems to me that she is not really offering herself with any expectation; more that she would be willing to continue if Shinji had responded in that way (which we know was never going to happen).

[Reichu]

In EoE it's clear that Misato is simply using sex to try to manipulate Shinji into action.

I don't think that's "clear" at all. There's a reason Misato decided to go there specifically. It's not like this came out of nowhere. People keep acting like all of these events exist in a vacuum from each other; that's not how it works.