Asuka's issues

[Guy Nacks]

I think Shinji probably thinks Asuka can be a bully sometimes.

[Sorrow]

Asuka has no interest in domination, she wants acknowledgement. She doesn't want to be the center of attention, she wants to be taken seriously. She doesn't care one whit for being adored, and in fact rejects it at every turn (she likes being admired by her classmates, but categorically rejects the adoration of the boys in her class).

Asuka constantly wants to impress people, for them to acknowledge her smarts, her beauty, and her maturity. Not only does she elevate herself to achieve this, she also cuts others down. Especially her competition. She desires to dominate because it helps her stand above the rest - therefore be more visible.

She doesn't really pick on people, she doesn't really cut anyone down, and when she calls them out on their weaknesses she's generally spot-on in her assessments.

Homing in on someone's weakness and then using it to assault them is generally a good way to cut them down or pick on them. The more accurate you are, the more damage you'll do.

her image is that of a narcissistic bully but that's a facade, not who she is or what she actually does. Those things are no more accurate than the whole tsundere business or her being the hotblooded ace pilot.

But she is a "tsundere", and she is[s]---[/s]or was[s]---[/s]the hotblooded ace pilot. Just because there is more to her than that, and Anno has given us reasons for her behaviour, doesn't change what she is. It's just presented in a more real way. She has depth and motivations, everyone agrees, but she is still shown to be an aggressive bully despite (because of) her fragile self-image.

Let me ask you this: apart from the main cast, who do we actually see Asuka attack in the show? Touji and Kensuke? Who wouldn't attack those idiots after the stunts they pulled? So who else? Certainly not Hikari. Are there examples of her picking on classmates? Nerv staff? Anyone apart from Misato and the other pilots? I can't think of any. And that leaves me thinking her default mode is what we see with Kaji and Hikari: she gets on fine with others unless they're fucked up somehow and provoke her with profoundly annoying personality quirks (which Rei and Shinji have in spades). That doesn't justify her behavior, of course, but it does put it into perspective and suggest that we might be reading too much into it.

Bullies are capable of having friends too; even idolizing someone else. Just because she picks on some and not others does not mean she picks on no one at all. Presumably her classmates admire her, somewhat. She is the most popular girl in school. Hikari doesn't have a personality that rubs Asuka the wrong way.

If someone has personality quirks which I find profoundly annoying, and it "provokes" me into belittling or insulting them, then I am being a bully. Not only that, but Asuka also targets Rei for her being the "preferred pilot", the "commander's favourite". Then there is also the fact that Asuka firstly attempts to befriend Rei, because it would be "convenient", which Rei rejects - she doesn't acknowledge Asuka's greatness, like the other students, or wish to be involved in her life. Therefore she cuts her down when she can; unlike the other girls. Competition and perceived threats to her image seem to be her primary motivations for attacking people, and we know she competes with both Misato and Shinji but not other Nerv employees.

You're making a leap of logic here -- the fact that bullies are often psychologically damaged does not mean any given damaged individual is a bully. You're basically saying that an assertive victim is a bully by default, even though in this case her supposed "victims" did far more damage to her than she did to them. And that's absurd to me, and goes back to why I consider the matter of intent to be so important.

No, being psychologically damaged does not make one a bully, and Gob never said as such, but most bullies are suffering with their own issues. Intent does matter, and stamping down anyone who might challenge her importance or her ability to have what she wants is her intent.

This isn't to say Asuka is a horrible person[s]---[/s]she did accommodate Rei's vegetarianism[s]---[/s]she just naturally slams the hammer when she feels slighted or threatened. This way she can try to remain on top despite feeling vulnerable. Though, maybe it was done so as to make herself the great magnanimous Asuka? I think it's more to show that when she's happy with herself and not feeling insignificant, like after demonstrating her leadership and support abilities in combat, she feels no need to assert herself and can be quite charming.

[NemZ]

It seems to me the entire argument can be summed up as people disagreeing about what a bully is. Until you agree on the definition being applied this can go nowhere.

To my mind being a bully is about actions not motivations, because any excuses or explanations don't change how the victims feel about it.

[Bagheera]

It seems to me the entire argument can be summed up as people disagreeing about what a bully is. Until you agree on the definition being applied this can go nowhere.

To my mind being a bully is about actions not motivations, because any excuses or explanations don't change how the victims feel about it.

I think that broadens the scope of the term to the point of uselessness, though. But you're right, there's no single definition for the term, which makes discussing it difficult.

Something we've skirted around here, but never addressed directly, is the power dynamics involved. I think a big part of being a bully is picking on someone weaker than you are to build yourself up. People will say this is exactly what Asuka does, but it's not quite true since nobody in the main cast is weaker than her. She's feisty and assertive, but she's at the bottom of the heap when it comes to actual power, and that's the source of the problem. Look at her targets: Rei is "Miss Perfect", the "favored pet", and that's not something Asuka made up -- Rei actually is those things (and if you wanna talk about damage you'll have to look elsewhere, as Rei rather pointedly doesn't care about Asuka's opinion of her). Similarly, Shinji really is the Commander's son, and he really is the "chosen one", as it were. And Misato is literally Asuka's superior in every respect -- her CO, her guardian/parent, an adult vs. Asuka's being an adolescent, etc. The only people she picks on are people who she perceives to be (and who actually are) her betters. She rather pointedly does not pick on people who are her actual inferiors -- non-pilots and people in the Nerv staff who have no power over her.

So, putting it another way, Asuka might espouse bullying attitudes, but she (arguably) doesn't do it with a bullying mindset/intent, the power structure of her relationships is the inverse of the typical bully and victim, and the effects of her outbursts and actions are far more damaging to her than anyone else. In other words she is a petulant child, not a bully.

[Sorrow]

To my mind being a bully is about actions not motivations, because any excuses or explanations don't change how the victims feel about it.

I think intent certainly matters. Being inadvertently unkind isn't the same as trying to make someone feel awful. Sometimes there are people who laugh along even if they feel they're being victimised, so how is the alleged bully meant to always know they're bullying if their supposed victim is giggling with them?

Now, I do also think a bully can be unaware that they're bullying, but it's still the intent that defines them. It's about making someone feel inferior to give the bully a sense that they are somehow superior to the victim - something Asuka constantly tries. Rei being unconcerned doesn't change her sarcastic remarks about how wonderful she is - "oh you're just so perfect". It's true that Asuka calls her as she is, but she is in no way intending it to be a complement. I think it's worth pointing out, that even though Asuka may want to be the best, she doesn't wish to do so at the cost of her identity; and that, even though she may not be willing to sacrifice as much as Rei, she's still jealous and resentful that she's better than herself. Hence the attempts to belittle and insult her, and hence why she's a bit of a bully.

Why does she attempt to make Misato feel ashamed of herself? Because she's jealous and she resents her because of Kaji. Why does she constantly remind Shinji of his less than desirable nature? Because she's jealous of his position and resents him for his inability to see her needs. Jealousy and resentment are the main reasons for bullying done by people with insecurities.

There is the more impersonal bullying[s]---[/s]which isn't part of Asuka's behaviour[s]---[/s]where a more socially powerful character, more intelligent and capable than their peers, will continually pick on someone simply because it amuses their friends.

[Guy Nacks]

You people are all wasting your time.

Bags is never going to admit that Asuka might be bully, even if presented with all the evidence possible to make that assertion. He is blindly loyal to his mistress in the face of even Death.



If we're observing from the outside, say as a character within the series like Shinji or Rei, than yes, Asuka's actions do make her seem like a bully. However, watching the whole series from a viewer's perspective and seeing all the stuff that makes Asuka tick as well as, most importantly, her private moments, we can understand why she does what she does, even though it's still not exactly helping her or anyone else in the long run.


Perspective is everything.

[Bagheera]

Bags is never going to admit that Asuka might be bully, even if presented with all the evidence possible to make that assertion. He is blindly loyal to his mistress in the face of even Death.

Dude, seriously?

If we're observing from the outside, say as a character within the series like Shinji or Rei, than yes, Asuka's actions do make her seem like a bully. However, watching the whole series from a viewer's perspective and seeing all the stuff that makes Asuka tick as well as, most importantly, her private moments, we can understand why she does what she does, even though it's still not exactly helping her or anyone else in the long run.

Perspective is everything.

I don't disagree with any of this.

[Guy Nacks]

Apologies if I got a little too hyperbolic.

[NemZ]

You seem to be under the impression that bullies don't have reasons for their actions other than just being assholes. This is incorrect. Everyone who ever did anything thought they had a good reason for it at the time.

Understanding the motivations behind an action doesn't change what that action is, however. A sympathetic bully is still a bully.

[Bagheera]

You seem to be under the impression that bullies don't have reasons for their actions other than just being assholes.

No, I'm not under that impression at all. My impression is that you can't be a bully unless you have power over your victim, and that most of the examples of Asuka's "bullying" fall short of the mark due to context (i.e., in most situations they would be excellent examples of bullying behavior, but in Eva, because everything has to be subverted or something, they aren't). I'm also under the impression that not all harmful behavior is bullying, and that describing it as such makes dealing with actual bullying more difficult.

Here's another way to look at my position: Asuka wants to be a bully. I don't mean she consciously says "I want to crush and demean these people", because that's silly. But she does want to do the bully routine, for the same reasons bullies do it. There's just one problem: nobody takes her seriously, so it doesn't work. She tries with Misato, but Misato's so much more powerful than her that she just laughs it off. She tries with Rei, but Rei so doesn't care it's not even funny. She tries with Shinji, but he's just a confused boy and doesn't even know he's supposed to be hurt when she calls him stupid. Asuka wants to be a bully (again, not literally, she just wants the security bullies get from bullying others), she's throwing it out there, but it doesn't work. This is the difference between a bully and a petulant child: bullies have power, and hurt their victims. Petulant children are blown off and ignored. Which best describes Asuka?

tldr; Asuka's too pathetic to be a bully. "Blind loyalty" my ass.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

It looks like the conversation is gradually turning to "Asuka partakes in bullying behavior, but not with a bullying mindset." This is something I can absolutely get behind. I'm in agreement with Bagheera when it comes to Asuka's mindset, but I'm in agreement with Gob, Guy, and NemZ when it comes to her actions. There's really no getting around the fact that Asuka's behavior, to someone who doesn't have 20/20 hindsight, can easily be taken as bullying, but it's just as easily argued by us, who do have this brilliant ability to look at past situations with future knowledge, that she's not doing what she does with malicious intent or meaning to do it.

Asuka bullies. She doesn't mean to, nor does she do it with ill intent, but she does.

[NemZ]

'You' was directed at Guy. My fault for not being clear.

How others react to the behavior doesn't change what that behavior is.

[Guy Nacks]

And now I get to respond. Oh, joy!

You seem to be under the impression that bullies don't have reasons for their actions other than just being assholes. This is incorrect. Everyone who ever did anything thought they had a good reason for it at the time.

Understanding the motivations behind an action doesn't change what that action is, however. A sympathetic bully is still a bully.

Of course, people have reasons why they do what they do, and I agree with the rest of your post completely. My comment was attempting to rationalize to Bags that our unique perspective into the inner person that Asuka is, given scenes that we're shown with only her at her most open and vulnerable, can affect our own interpretation of those actions other than what we would think if we weren't offered such personal scenes.

Basically, I'm trying to understand Bags' point of view. He's a viewer of the show (like the rest of us), which means he's seen things that cast Asuka in a very vulnerable light and illustrate what her real problems are, but there has to be a separation of being objective about what a character is doing to others without letting our love for that character get in the way of that. (I just want to say for the record that I do like Asuka as a character, I don't really bash any characters in this series because they all serve their purpose)

Bags, take away everything you know about Asuka's backstory and step in Shinji's 14 year old shoes. What would your perspective of her be then?

[Bagheera]

Bags, take away everything you know about Asuka's backstory and step in Shinji's 14 year old shoes. What would your perspective of her be then?

Pretty much the helltrain scene in EoE. I.e., "I don't understand what's going on." I wouldn't think of her as a bully because I wouldn't have that language to work with; I'd just be very confused and uncertain and generally upset, as he was. I'd also think she was the closest thing I had to a friend, since Misato just tried to hit on me and Rei was . . . something about my mom? And anyway very much Not Rei. So yeah, Asuka's very confusing, and painful, but she's still the person I trust the most because even though she's confusing she's . . . not . . . weird? Something. She's human, I guess. And a peer. And sort of a friend.

Kinda.

But man, girls are confusing.

That's what I'd think.

[Ispellnogood]

I think Asuka's has a bit of a bully mentality, the way she's frustrated at her own perceived failures and kind of lashes out at the world and Shinji because of that. Until the weight of her failures become to much and she rendered catatonic and written out of the show in a way. Anno could have gone this 'No hope' way for Asuka because it would make her less hated as a bully and makes the ending Gendo give the characters seem more like a mercy and a good thing.


I remember reading one of the episode drafts where Asuka isn't catotonic, but spreading rumors around in school about Shinji, in a very bully like fashion.

[Bagheera]

Side note: Asuka was never catatonic. She was almost there in the bathtub, but after that was just heavily sedated. No catatonia, no coma. Just a depressed girl on sedatives.

[Atropos]

I'd also think she was the closest thing I had to a friend, since Misato just tried to hit on me and Rei was . . . something about my mom? And anyway very much Not Rei. So yeah, Asuka's very confusing, and painful, but she's still the person I trust the most because even though she's confusing she's . . . not . . . weird? Something. She's human, I guess. And a peer. And sort of a friend.

Man, what about your best buds, Touji and Kensuke? (Okay, maybe not Kensuke. Touji, though...)

Just because Asuka thinks Rei is weird doesn't mean everyone thinks so. Eccentric, yes, but Shinji never avoids her because of her weird behavior (until he sees the Reiquarium). He likes her, I think, more than he likes Asuka for most of the series—up until episode 23.

And Shinji does think she's "confusing", but he also thinks that she actually dislikes him to a degree, and he has to work to keep her from hating him. Doesn't exactly sound like a healthy friendship.

[Bagheera]

Man, what about your best buds, Touji and Kensuke? (Okay, maybe not Kensuke. Touji, though...)

Did he show up in Shinji's Instrumentality? No? Well, there you go, then.

Just because Asuka thinks Rei is weird doesn't mean everyone thinks so.

After Rei II dies Shinji definitely thinks her replacement is weird -- that's the whole point of the bottom half of ep 23. The Rei he encounters afterward is not "his" Rei. Prior to that, no, he didn't think she was weird, but I'm talking about what he thought at the end of the show, when he knew as much as he could about these characters.

Eccentric, yes, but Shinji never avoids her because of her weird behavior (until he sees the Reiquarium). He likes her, I think, more than he likes Asuka for most of the series—up until episode 23.

I agree, but that qualifier is important.

And Shinji does think she's "confusing", but he also thinks that she actually dislikes him to a degree, and he has to work to keep her from hating him. Doesn't exactly sound like a healthy friendship.

Whoever said there was anything healthy about any of these characters? Hell, I don't recall saying much of anything positive about Asuka: just that the negatives being tossed around were misapplied.

[Atropos]

Did he show up in Shinji's Instrumentality? No? Well, there you go, then.

He showed up with everyone else in episodes 25 and 26. Not in EoE, 'cept for that one image, but in EoE Instrumentality is literally about "sex and Asuka", so...

After Rei II dies Shinji definitely thinks her replacement is weird -- that's the whole point of the bottom half of ep 23. The Rei he encounters afterward is not "his" Rei.

You're thinking of the manga, bro. Series-Shinji was like, "Rei is acting weird. What's up with that?" He still wanted to help her, which is probably why he agreed to go along with Ritsuko. But he didn't reject Rei III until he saw the Reiquarium. By 24, he's rejected her, but he's rejected nearly everyone by that point.

And in End, she shows up—literally as the embodiment of connecting to other people.

Prior to that, no, he didn't think she was weird, but I'm talking about what he thought at the end of the show, when he knew as much as he could about these characters.

Which is a ridiculous viewpoint to take, as by that point Shinji has had access to the collective mind of all humanity. Of course he's going to take a more charitable attitude at that point. I'm pretty sure Guy was not asking for "Shinji at the end of the series", but "Shinji during the series, when he's in the midst of all this shit and doesn't have the benefit of having briefly been God".

Whoever said there was anything healthy about any of these characters? Hell, I don't recall saying much of anything positive about Asuka: just that the negatives being tossed around were misapplied.

If they're not friends, what about their relationship makes Asuka's constant mockery okay? I mean, I can understand taking that from someone if you're aware that they don't take it seriously—the problem is that Shinji doesn't know that, and he interprets Asuka's ridicule as representing how she actually feels about him.

[Bagheera]

He showed up with everyone else in episodes 25 and 26. Not in EoE, 'cept for that one image, but in EoE Instrumentality is literally about "sex and Asuka", so...

It is what it is, man.

You're thinking of the manga, bro.

No I'm not. I haven't even read the manga (I own it, because completist, but apart from skimming it and using it as reference I've never read it all the way through).

Series-Shinji was like, "Rei is acting weird. What's up with that?" He still wanted to help her, which is probably why he agreed to go along with Ritsuko. But he didn't reject Rei III until he saw the Reiquarium. By 24, he's rejected her, but he's rejected nearly everyone by that point.

That's basically what I said, though. I was mainly thinking of EoE there, honestly.

Which is a ridiculous viewpoint to take, as by that point Shinji has had access to the collective mind of all humanity. Of course he's going to take a more charitable attitude at that point. I'm pretty sure Guy was not asking for "Shinji at the end of the series", but "Shinji during the series, when he's in the midst of all this shit and doesn't have the benefit of having briefly been God".

I don't think it's ridiculous at all, really. Looking at EoE, there's nothing charitable about his viewpoints there. The helltrain sequence is where everyone's cards are laid upon the table, and where we find what everyone really thinks. Yeah, later on Rei shows up as a god figure, but she's more Lilith at that point than Rei; she's not his friend anymore, just a psychopomp guiding him on his journey.

As for the series proper, I've already agreed that Shinji probably liked Rei better. She was definitely more agreeable before the Armisael business went down.

If they're not friends, what about their relationship makes Asuka's constant mockery okay?

Who the devil ever said it was okay? You (and others in the thread, Gob being the notable exception) seem to think I'm somehow trying to whitewash or excuse Asuka's behavior. I'm not. I'm saying "this is not the right term for what she's doing", not "what she's doing isn't all that bad." Big difference.

I mean, I can understand taking that from someone if you're aware that they don't take it seriously—the problem is that Shinji doesn't know that, and he interprets Asuka's ridicule as representing how she actually feels about him.

I don't think he does, actually. I think he doesn't know how to interpret it, and that that's the core of the problem -- he doesn't know what to make of her. Girl, foreigner, assertive -- triple threat to a confused and introverted Japanese teenager.