The Shades of Gendo Ikari

[Chuckman]

I'd have more respect for Gendo if he could see that his son needed him now and Yui didn't care about either of them and abandoned them both. I still can't actually blame him for not letting go of her, because to let go of somebody they have to be gone. She was still there, she was just pulling some bullshit like "I need some (outer) space" instead of just breaking it off.

[NIkkolas]

Now Yui....there is a character I don't get. ^ This post is certainly representative of a lot of opinions on Eva but then there are people who say no, Yui was the hero. It's all very confusing to a newbie like me since when I went into Eva I had always heard Yui loved Shinji and she was the good one and Gendo was the monster. Then I saw the show and EOE and after thoroughly failing to comprehend anything in that movie I looked up discussions on boards like these and found the "Yui was evil and the mastermind behind everything" supporters.

It makes sense i suppose. All I can say for certain is that Gendo and Yui Ikari are definite candidates for some of the Worst Parents in Fiction. (leaving out the ones that just straight up try to murder their children obviously)

[pwhodges]

But on a couple of occasions (though less often than one would expect, perhaps) Yui acts to protect or help Shinji - this Gendou never did. That may not fully rehabilitate her, but it does humanise her to some extent.

[Chuckman]

From a certain point of view. She needs him for her plan. There are times when she could show some basic humanity, but doesn't. It's easy to read Yui as this ethereal sainted mother figure... which is exactly what she wants.

[Ieyasu]

Yeah, I figure he became more obsessive about it with unit 01 "in his possession" when he knew she was in there, there was no closure on her for him, perhaps he went cray-cray? He doesn't even know if the Yui in there is a Yui that would tolerate him again, or hasn't been changed so much it could hardly be considered to be her any more, but it's like he just assumes so and that she would want what he does. All the while he's using her as much as Shinji and the others, isn't Unit 01 at risk every time it sorties? unless he knew somehow it was going to become aware, self sustaining or practically invincible in crucial moments he was sending out the unit he should have been keeping back to preserve it?

[Bagheera]

Yui becomes much more comprehensible once you realize she wants to save everyone. Leave the Earth? Save the Angels. Let Asuka die? Save Kyoko. Once you know death is transitory and Instrumentality is inevitable everything else falls into place.

[pwhodges]

But at what a cost! At least, given that not everyone (if Shinji is in fact representative) wants to buy in to instrumentality.

[Sorrow]

Perhaps experiencing, but ultimately rejecting, instrumentality is Yui's way of saving human-kind? Showing them that their painful existence is in fact a desirable one?

[pwhodges]

That works, I guess - if, again, Shinji is sufficiently representative!

[Bagheera]

But at what a cost! At least, given that not everyone (if Shinji is in fact representative) wants to buy in to instrumentality.

Well, Instrumentality isn't even necessary; either way she gets to save the angels, and either way Kyoko escapes from her core. Kind? No. But effective nonetheless.

And what cost, anyway? Nobody dies. Gregg had it wrong from the outset, as the original premise and his were identical.

[NIkkolas]

Everyone wants the apocalypse. Yui, Gendo, SEELE. They all want the world to end and yet they each have their own weird spin on it. I don't know how you can have different "spins" on everyone's soul being merged together but the Eva Wiki seems to think it's different and like I said, EOE made so little sense to me I just stopped even trying to make sense of it about halfway through.

But in the end maybe they are all bad people but horrible in different ways.

[Sorrow]

Anyway, while I'm here, I actually quite like Gendo - not that anyone cares (you don't care).

He's clearly quite charismatic, intelligent and has an iron will. He managed to make three genius' fall for his "charms" and countless subordinates who listen to what he says with little-to-no resistance.

I'm of the opinion that he absolutely was motivated by love; I likened it to Romeo and Juliet somewhere around here.

I also don't think he's obligated to like Shinji very much to make him a compelling character. He chose Yui, he wanted to spend his life with her. Shinji seems to have just been put upon him by Yui - the fact he is honest in something others would pretend otherwise for fear of social stigma makes him more likeable to me; but that's beside the point really. He's very obviously an incredibly selfish man, which isn't a good trait; but when coupled with his ability to make things happen and see it through, it's rather redeeming.

I'm sure many accomplished people in our own history have done so by upsetting those close to them or by being incredibly selfish people in general - it's hard to let it belittle their character. Problem is we see the story mostly from Shinji's perspective and so Gendo looks even more like a villain who does nothing but neglect and demand as far as his son is concerned.

Though of course it does seem apparent--in a subtle way--he is rather proud of Shinji, does love him on some level and repents somewhat that his actions may have hurt him. But first and foremost, Gendo and his wants in life come before anything else.

[NemZ]

I'd have more respect for Gendo if he could see that his son needed him now and Yui didn't care about either of them and abandoned them both.

Then you should point your ire at Fuyutsuki, who knew she was there by choice this whole time and let Gendo spin his wheels within wheels to accomplish a goal that was always impossible out of sheer vindictive pettiness.

[NIkkolas]

That's your interpretation of Fuyutsuki? I remember the episode with his flashbacks pretty well since it was one of the better episodes in my opinion and Fuyutsuki never disguised anything he felt about Gendo. In fact I was always perplexed by his change of heart since he burst in on Gendo and said "I'M ONTO YOU AND YOUR EVIL CONSPIRACY CULT BUDDIES!" Then Gendo showed him something and suddenly Fuyutsuki became his most trusted assistant for the rest of their days.

It was weird but I never got the idea at all that he was vindictive or at least that he was hiding his bitterness. Then again, maybe that's why he and Gendo got on so well - they're both secretly very hateful people who just don't let on to how hateful they are. That was never my idea of Fuyutsuki but what do i know.

[ElMariachi]

^
You need to realize that his "showing him something" was basically Gendo saying to Fuyutsuki that either he join them (since him discovering the truth means that he have valuable skills) or he never get out of the building alive.

Then you should point your ire at Fuyutsuki, who knew she was there by choice this whole time and let Gendo spin his wheels within wheels to accomplish a goal that was always impossible out of sheer vindictive pettiness.

Didn't Yui explicitly asked Fuyutsuki to keep quiet about this, I recall that Fuyu rather wanted Yui to be honest with Gendo, but she refused because she knew that Gendo would never let do the Contact Experiment had he know what would had happened.

[NIkkolas]

But surely there must have been more to it than that? If Gendo didn't somehow convince Fuyutsuki over to their side with whatever it was he showed him, then the dear professor could have just said "yep, I'm with you guys" then carried out his original plan of exposing them to the world the first chance he got. He surely wouldn't have followed Gendo's road to Hell for all those years just under the threat that he might be killed.

Fuyutsuki's and Gendo's relationship seems to be as complex and rife with different interpretations as most other things in Eva... I've seen people who say they think the two men couldn't actually stand each other and some others who say they found a common goal in opposing SEELE (which is what the woman they bothloved was after I guess?) and through this they eventually had mutual respect, and then there are probably other opinions of it that I haven't read.

[Chuckman]

More complex than that. Fuyutsuki wants to stop SEELE and see Yui again and probably knowingly or just in the back of his head fuck with Gendo. Gendo wants to be with Yui; his goal is simply to be subsumed by her. The irony of all his apparent composure and willpower is that he can't live for himself, he's totally defined by another person. Gendo no doubt knows that Fuyutsuki covets his wife and looks down on him for his brutishness but shares a respect for the similarity of his twisted obsession to his own.

Deep down somewhere, Gendo probably knows that he and Fuyutsuki are in the same boat- they've given their whole selves to this goal of seeing this woman again and once she's done stepping on their necks to reach her goal she isn't even bothered with them.

Hence my belief that the monstrous Eva in EoE biting Gendo in half is solely a production of his own mind. It's not Yui punishing him, he served Yui's purposes and I honestly think they never interact again. Gendo conjures this monster manifestation of this thing that he has sacrificed everything to and makes his metaphorical self destruction literal. The white whale eats him.

[NIkkolas]

I kinda wonder if Fuyutsuki's and Gendo's relationship deserves its own topic? It seems likely it's been done before but I couldn't find much of anything from a quick search.

[NemZ]

Didn't Yui explicitly asked Fuyutsuki to keep quiet about this, I recall that Fuyu rather wanted Yui to be honest with Gendo, but she refused because she knew that Gendo would never let do the Contact Experiment had he know what would had happened.

Yeah, before the CE happens he could potentially stop her. She didn't say anything about not telling him the truth after it was a done deal though... though it's entirely possible Gendo wouldn't have believed it if he had anyway.

If you want to go more generally into the two of them feel free to make a new topic.

[Bagheera]

More complex than that. Fuyutsuki wants to stop SEELE and see Yui again and probably knowingly or just in the back of his head fuck with Gendo. Gendo wants to be with Yui; his goal is simply to be subsumed by her. The irony of all his apparent composure and willpower is that he can't live for himself, he's totally defined by another person. Gendo no doubt knows that Fuyutsuki covets his wife and looks down on him for his brutishness but shares a respect for the similarity of his twisted obsession to his own.

And this is why I find the notion that Gendo Ikari was a badass to be utterly ridiculous -- he wasn't a badass at all, he was pathetic. Shinji, as of EoE (to say nothing of EoTV), is a far greater man than Gendo ever was. He still needs to get his shit together in a big way, but at least he's living for himself.