The Shades of Gendo Ikari

[Bagheera]

^^ Well, that was a surprisingly good post. While i might not agree with some of the factual assesment and i don't know if the poster is even around anymore, i must admit that was an interesting read.

It's a fair point, but even with that in mind I have no problem assessing the guy and saying "yup, bad."

Everyone has reasons, but that's rather the point; good or bad is what you become based on how you deal with those reasons.

[LordThaeon]

Gendo.. He had a hard life.

I wanted to say that first, but I doubt it's relevant. And I actually want to make one, legit post on this forum before I stop giving a fuck about it.

So, Gendo. To understand Gendo, you have to understand obsession. The best way to understand obsession is to experience it. It's a dangerous road, however. Waking up every day thinking about something, proceeding to think about it during the time you're awake, performing actions in accordance to the subject you're thinking of, laying to sleep thinking about the subject, dreaming of it, waking up thinking about it and then repeating the cycle for the next 10 years is being obsessed. Being obsessed is being a slave. To your own self, to your own obsession that is the result of your projection/s.

That is Gendo. He's a slave. Are slaves good or evil? It's a hard question, the most you can say about them is that they're arguably weak. But you can't blame them for actions they're forced to perform, for they are in fact slaves and what kind of slave doesn't do what he has to do?

Thus good and evil can't apply to Gendo. He is forced to do what he does, so he does it, believing it's for the best. Does that mean we can't judge his actions? No, we can. But do actions define him as a good or a bad person? No.
Do they define him as some gray area type of character? Negative.
Do they even define him as a person? Yes.

Just like Romeo's actions defined him as a character, just like Julia's actions defined her as a character, Gendo's actions of betraying the trust of the only person he truly loved, doing inhuman things to the only thing that's left of the person he truly loved, 'blasphemy' he committed to the organic remains of the only person he loved, dooming the world and people of the only person he truly loved, define him as a tragic character, who at the end of the road can't find the light because he has merged with the shadow of himself, with his obsession, because he let it win him over.

He is ultimately, a tragic and completely broken person, just like Shinji, Asuka, Rei and everyone else in Evangelion, more or less.

To sum it up, labeling Gendo as good or bad is pointless. You have to put yourself in his shoes, live his life, experience it and then come to the conclusion that he's just.. sad.

Some would argue that obsession and selfishness are semantically the same.

But semantics aside, this post was a great read. It doesn't make Gendo anymore sympathetic in my book, but your book is not my book.

[Dream]

It's a fair point, but even with that in mind I have no problem assessing the guy and saying "yup, bad."

Everyone has reasons, but that's rather the point; good or bad is what you become based on how you deal with those reasons.

You can certainly say his actions are pretty terrible, but i can't really see Gendo as a person to be bad.

It's a bit hard to explain... To put it in a way, after watching Stray Dog, i've come to see these kind of matters (troubled/disturbed people to commit heinous acts) in the same outlook/perspective the police officer Sato-san gives to the protagonist at the very end.

[Bagheera]

You can certainly say his actions are pretty terrible, but i can't really see Gendo as a person to be bad.

Bad is as bad does. There are exceptions, of course (mental illness, impossible circumstances, etc), but for the most part someone who commits heinous acts is pretty bad by default.

[pwhodges]

I simply cannot see him as not bad, as I've made clear in another thread (which led to some debate).

[Gus Hanson]

In his own twisted way, Gendo did all that he did for his love for Yui and his desire to reunite with her. Does this make him bad? Good and bad are in certain terms points of view so if one sees it that way, the people around him will have different takes on the subject.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

In his own twisted way, Gendo did all that he did for his love for Yui and his desire to reunite with her. Does this make him bad? Good and bad are in certain terms points of view so if one sees it that way, the people around him will have different takes on the subject.

Well, people fly jets into buildings out of their desire to wipe out the inferior capitalist dogs. That makes them pretty damn bad, as far as I'm concerned. Gendo's trying to tang everybody, whether they want it or not. I'm still trying to decide what this means to me.

[Gus Hanson]

Well, people fly jets into buildings out of their desire to wipe out the inferior capitalist dogs. That makes them pretty damn bad, as far as I'm concerned. Gendo's trying to tang everybody, whether they want it or not. I'm still trying to decide what this means to me.

I don't know if this makes Gendo a terrorist since he operates with the full support of the military but then again some armies have lended hands to nasty causes over the years.

[nervshatter]

In his own twisted way, Gendo did all that he did for his love for Yui and his desire to reunite with her. Does this make him bad? Good and bad are in certain terms points of view so if one sees it that way, the people around him will have different takes on the subject.

Of course that makes him bad he used and manipulated a bunch people for his own selfish cause, its like saying Darth Vader is not a bad guy because he killed all those jedi & kids over his love for padme.

[K40s]

was I the only one who thought this topic was about Gendo's actual shades?

As in the glasses he uses followed by a deep and metaphorical analysis about how they represent like a wall or ATF that distances him from everybody else and keeps them away..

[The Killer of Heroes]

Gendo's glasses being similar to the AT Field is a nice comparison actually... He's always "hiding" behind them, so you can never quite be sure what he's feeling.

Compare this to when he was younger in the flashback to his youth. He seemed a bit more emotionally open and vulnerable...and also didn't wear the glasses. He didn't have his "AT Field" up around his soul.

[Dream]

was I the only one who thought this topic was about Gendo's actual shades?

As in the glasses he uses followed by a deep and metaphorical analysis about how they represent like a wall or ATF that distances him from everybody else and keeps them away..

One of the old-timers made such an observation actually, but i can't remember the exact thread.

Also, it's important to remember that Gendo's purpose and agenda isn't only for the sake of seeing Yui again (although that is quite likely the primary motivator) he's also deeply concerned with stopping SEELE and whatever beliefs he might held for Instrumentality.

At least in EoTV, he honestly seemed to believe (temporary?) Instrumentality was what mankind needed.

Classifying Gendo as good or bad would be way easier for me if we knew for certain all of the reasons for why he pursues his agenda, as well as which are the actual goals and results of said agenda. I don't know if it would be entirely accurate to say he doesn't care about humanity, but that seems the most likely.

[NIkkolas]

So I realize this is a necro but this topic already had links to a couple other threads on this matter and I see people do that a lot in other threads too. So...I just kinda figured the preference was for people to just use the old topics instead of making new ones. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

The thing that strikes me about how people view or judge Gendo Ikari is that it's almost all "Shinji-centric." How badly he treated Shinji, if he really gave a crap about Shinji, all of this tends to determine the average Eva fan's perspective on how good or bad he is. His mistreatment of Shinji was certainly the thing I heard most about him long before I watched the show.

But what about Naoko? What about Ritsuko?

True, they certainly have dirtier hands than Shinji. They are also both adults while Shinji was a poor confused kid who might have social problems even if he wasn't forced to pilot a giant robot in-between apocalypses.

However this post rings home for me:

Some people just sympathise with some characters better than others. Just as all the other characters have fandoms and hatedoms.

I sympathize far more with Ritsuko and Naoko than I do with Shinji. The reason for this is that, not only was "love" Gendo's great motivation, it was also his great weapon. He wielded it with cruel skill and basically drove both of these women insane. Naoko was so horrifically wrapped around his finger that her....brain....personality...thing in the computer chose Gendo over her own daughter, thus allowing the former to murder the latter. (that is what happened in EOE, right? The "Woman" part of her chose Gendo, overpowering the "Mother" part? That has all sorts of horrible implications)

I understand Gendo's feelings, I really do. Push comes to shove, I might very well do some horrible things for the woman I love too. Her life certainly means more to me than a bunch of nameless, faceless people. But the thing is that Gendo did not just lose himself in a crime of passion or love, he twisted it around and destroyed the lives and minds of two other women. They trusted themselves to him and he betrayed that trust.

Perhaps they were fools to trust him in the first place but a betrayal is still a betrayal and abuse is still abuse. What he did is unforgivable to me.

There's also the fact people love to point to EOE and say "see! He really did care about Shinji!" Yep, maybe. But he never expressed any remorse for anyone else's life he destroyed.

[NemZ]

There's also the fact people love to point to EOE and say "see! He really did care about Shinji!" Yep, maybe. But he never expressed any remorse for anyone else's life he destroyed.

Maybe. It would depend on what you think he said to Ritsuko before shooting her and if he was actually lying or not. Personally I think he actively disliked Naoko but had a certain fondness for Ritsuko and would have preferred not to have hurt her in the course of the narrative. It isn't apparent that he actually ever learned what it was that turned her against him or that he in any way intended for her to be subjected to quite that level of duress, but the great plan takes precedence over all else and he'd probably have still sent her if he had known although certainly not without reservations. In some alternate world where he managed to get over Yui I'd like to think he and "Dr. Pullring" might have had a real chance.

Then again, I'm one of the few people around here who actually LIKES Gendo.

[Sachi]

The thing that strikes me about how people view or judge Gendo Ikari is that it's almost all "Shinji-centric." How badly he treated Shinji, if he really gave a crap about Shinji, all of this tends to determine the average Eva fan's perspective on how good or bad he is. His mistreatment of Shinji was certainly the thing I heard most about him long before I watched the show.

I prefer to go the "Gendo-centric" route and judge him for the accomplished baddass he is. Yeah, he's a bit of a prick and doesn't exactly play well with others, but there's still a long list of strong character traits he has to offer, such as his dedication and pragmatism. His very apparent flaws, while they may not be forgivable, and still indeed understandable. Like Nemz, I actually really like Gendo's character, and I find him to be one of the more interesting ones in the franchise.

[NIkkolas]

You don't have to hate Gendo's character to consider him a villain. There are plenty of well-written and interesting bad guys in fiction. Gendo's motives are something most people can relate to and his...impassiveness made him very interesting. It was always hard to tell what he was thinking or feeling as he did all the things he did and that's probably why there are topics like this long after the show has been over with. I personally liked Gendo's character because of all that.

But in spite of all that, he still did many horrible things. No matter how interesting he is or what his initial reasons for doing it all, he is unforgivable. Which is probably why he suffered the fate he did in EOE.

[Ieyasu]

I don't get Gendo at all.

As a character his "villain" quality was kinda forced/overdone, yeah? It's hard to believe he treats everything as pretty much disposable all while working in subtle ways to be reunited with Yui. He's got one hell of a poker face if he actually ever cared about Shinji or anyone all that much, he never seems to have shown it. Even for Rei, who he seems to like, he starts off as if she means a great deal to him (burns) but by the end of the series it's like it doesn't matter so much because there's more where that came from, or something. She's just another tool. Even the way he's drawn and interacts as a younger guy in Fuyutsuki's recollection screams he's an asshole. They wanted you to hate him and threw in these weird moments where you think you might have seen a more compassionate side to the guy for a second, but to me most of the time it's red herring... till I can't even imagine Gendo is anything but wretched.

As for Bardiel... I just think he was happy to let the dummy system rip and see what it was capable of at the expense of an Eva and a pilot. If he really wanted Shinji to fight what he should have said was: "quit whining and fight, or I'll turn the auto pilot on and it'll crush seven shades out of your pal in there without remorse," or "YOU can fight it and save the pilot, or you can let the Eva kill him for you", whether he knew it was gonna work or not. Shinji doesn't respond to Gendo's orders or insults as well as he responds to the idea someone he likes needs help. I'd be willing to bet if that was explained for Shinji in that moment, he would have stopped letting himself be throttled and fought for someone else, i.e. Toji inside. It was a better option than letting himself be killed, even from Shinji's POV. Gendo sure sucks at parenting and husbanding. Or getting on side with people in general. How'd he ever get to be a Commander when he just seems to rub everyone the wrong way?

After the way he acted and the things he did to get back to Yui he didn't deserve her, or Shinji's affection, even if Yui did say there's some mystery worthwhile side to the dude. Maybe he's "tragic" in that way because he just single-mindedly screws everything up for one hope.

[NemZ]

I don't get Gendo at all.

My view is that he is so completely committed to his plan (and you have to admit 'save my wife' and 'save the world' are worthwhile goals) that he will sacrifice anything and everything to make it happen. That doesn't mean he wants to cause others pain or hardship, but he won't avoid it either if it is required and has steeled his mind to accept such sacrifices. In truth his cold indifference is a mask he wears to protect himself from facing up to all he's done, much like Asuka's feigned ego.

There are certainly times when his armor shows cracks however, usually involving Rei in danger. Not just the burns, but when Rei2 goes out to die agaisnt Zeruel he lets a little emotion slip out again. I also think he genuinely was proud of the way Shinji performed up until Bardiel which, because of how he views such matters, he simply couldn't understand. Given the opportunity he definately was pleased to see the dummy plug perform so well, but it's worth noting that he attempted to eject Toji before sending in the evas and only activated the dummy because Shinji refused to act. I don't believe he'd intentionally take such risks to test the system under dire conditions if it wasn't situationally necessary.

As to the college flashback, keep in mind this is being filtered through Fuyutsuki's view of him as a romantic rival and bitter subordinate. He probably always was an arrogant little shit, yes, but it's likely a little exaggerated as well. It seems he's had a long history of abuse from peers, possibly family as well, and his personality reflects an aggressive, preemptive response. In a different time and place young Gendo might have been another school shooter waiting to happen.

[pwhodges]

Um, where is it said that he wants to save his wife? I can only recall him saying he wanted to be with her, which is hardly the same even if he thinks that she will see that as the best thing that could happen to her (the words arrogant shit are what spring to my mind).

[Bagheera]

Um, where is it said that he wants to save his wife? I can only recall him saying he wanted to be with her, which is hardly the same even if he thinks that she will see that as the best thing that could happen to her (the words arrogant shit are what spring to my mind).

General agreement. I don't believe Gendo was considering Yui's feelings at any point during the exercise. Not that she exactly made them known, mind.