Who's worse, Shinji or Gendo? An analysis

[NemZ]

(awesome post)

Though to be fair I don't think Gendo really is 'running away' so much as moving forward via an indirect route. And he's probably completely right about him being a bad influence on Shinji, on top of simply not having the time for him when there's a world that needs saving.

I get that this isn't entirely what you are saying here but the way you posted it reminds me of something I would like to bring up. I am sick of people referencing NGE Shinji and EoE Shinji like they are two different people. Stating how one isn't all that bad while the other is horrible.

That's because they ARE two different people the way I see it. They have a common background, sure, but from ep 21 onward their paths diverge, and this common heritage actually makes EoE!Shinji's case much worse by comparison.

But then again, if you're blind to Shinji's glaring faults (and no, mass genocide isn't minor) then there's probably no point arguing with you.

[Rj123541]

Why would we even compare the two? At least Shinji doesn't Murder, use, create, ETC for his own benefit.

[Fireand'chutes77]

I get that this isn't entirely what you are saying here but the way you posted it reminds me of something I would like to bring up. I am sick of people referencing NGE Shinji and EoE Shinji like they are two different people. Stating how one isn't all that bad while the other is horrible.

I think some people have to remember to include NGE Characters when describing EoE Characters in order to see how some people developed to that end point. For Example, Shinji completely breaking down and not caring about anyone. Stand alone yes it is horrible, looking back and NGE and how he got there, I would probably be in the same boat.

I guess I never saw a break between NGE!Shinji and EoE!Shinji, because I could clearly see hints of his EoE behavior earlier in the series. By the end of episode 24 he was clearly on final approach to the bottom. His reactions in EoE seem consistent with the support structure of his entire life dropping out.

[Mr. Tines]

Why would we even compare the two? At least Shinji doesn't Murder, use, create, ETC for his own benefit.

What do you call his "So everybody, just die!", then? In scriptural terms , he committed murder in his heart; Rei was just there to reify his desire. (as it were)

[riffraff11235]

What do you call his "So everybody, just die!", then? In scriptural terms , he committed murder in his heart; Rei was just there to reify his desire. (as it were)

^This. Damn, Tines beat me to it! But yeah, I'd say that "murdering" the entire human race is a fairly large scar on Shinji's record....

[Lurkis]

But then again, if you're blind to Shinji's glaring faults (and no, mass genocide isn't minor) then there's probably no point arguing with you.

I would hardly consider it genocide if they can return to their physical forms.

[riffraff11235]

I would hardly consider it genocide if they can return to their physical forms.

I think Shinji's original intention was, in fact, to exterminate all humans. He didn't know about the "coming back" thing when he spoke the infamous "Nobody wants me, so they can all just die." line.

[CJD]

What do you call his "So everybody, just die!", then? In scriptural terms , he committed murder in his heart; Rei was just there to reify his desire. (as it were)

Apparently I've committed murder quite a few times then because I've wished people would die with a passion more than once.

I think Shinji's original intention was, in fact, to exterminate all humans. He didn't know about the "coming back" thing when he spoke the infamous "Nobody wants me, so they can all just die." line.[/i]

I don't think Shinji understood the scope of his situation nearly enough to have a true intention. I think you're both taking that "so they can all just die." too literally and with to much malice. My interpretation was more along the lines of "So they can die for all I care."

[riffraff11235]

I don't think Shinji understood the scope of his situation nearly enough to have a true intention. I think you're both taking that "so they can all just die." too literally and with to much malice. My interpretation was more along the lines of "So they can die for all I care" or even "I hope they all die." both of which are quite different from "I'm going to kill you all right now."

I see what you mean. I guess Shinji didn't know that his desires would be manifested in reality, so we can't put all of this blame on him. There's also the fact that he was severely damaged by that point.

[bobbyfischer's ghost]

^
agreed Rei gave Shinji a way out, but you have to give credit to Shinji for at least attempting to move forward, in contrast Gendo wanted to stay in instrumentality. That makes Gendo worse in my book.

[NemZ]

...unless instrumentality is WAY better than the hellhole the earth is reduced to after the impact. You know, like in EoTV... where Gendo gets his way and everyone seems pretty much okay with it?

[bobbyfischer's ghost]

I wouldn't call instrumentality a paradise.... personally I can't think of a better description of hell. Hallow joy and nothing more.

[riffraff11235]

I wouldn't call instrumentality a paradise.... personally I can't think of a better description of hell. Hallow joy and nothing more.

If you follow the "Hell is other people." mentality, then Instrumentality could be pretty darn close to paradise for you. A world in which, as far as you can tell, the concept of "other" does not exist at all. All is one, one is all.... Okay, we're starting to move into FMA territory....

[Lurkis]

If you follow the "Hell is other people." mentality, then Instrumentality could be pretty darn close to paradise for you. A world in which, as far as you can tell, only you exist, except all of your faults are filled in by the strengths of others, and all of your strengths go on to fill in the faults of others.

I always thought instrumentality would be bad for people who prefer to be alone. All those souls together in one place... I wonder what that would really be like.

[bobbyfischer's ghost]

I don't know it just seems like such a pointless existence filled with pointless pleasure that you become indifferent to over time.

[riffraff11235]

I always thought instrumentality would be bad for people who prefer to be alone. All those souls together in one place... I wonder what that would really be like.

But, as Rei mentioned, "This is a place where you cannot tell where you end and someone else begins. A world where you are everywhere and nowhere at the same time." Yes, all souls would be together in one place. But talking about a single soul in the context of this place would be like talking about a single drop of water in the context of the ocean. "Self" and "other" don't exist in the Egg of Lilith; there is only "One".

[bobbyfischer's ghost]

I guess it fits with Rei seeing as she never had a sense of self.

[NemZ]

This is getting a whole other topic and probably should just stop here. There are plenty of other threads for that discussion.

Short answer, I don't believe instrumentality in EoE is the same as it is in EoTV.

[bobbyfischer's ghost]

Agreed. It is getting way off topic.

[Dream]

Jorno's post is extremely interesting, i've never seen Gendo in such a light and it really brings a new perspective on a lot of things. Thank you.

I would agree with Nemz that Gendo isn't exactly running away, but rather just going through his own way in life, it doesn't excuse most of the horrible things he did of course, and i think even without the series's events he would still be a pretty terrible parent, but he definitively has his own positive or admirable aspects. He's so human, and at the same time i still consider him as the greatest villain i have ever seen, his actions and character is very understandable/sympathethic, and in the end he's still "wrong" for lack of a better word.

To the surprise of no one, i think Shinji is way better than Gendo. He might be selfish and too cowardly/scared as to properly help other people, his intentions of never hurting anyone usually end up hurting other people much more, and he can be quite destructive or aggresive at times. But in his heart he is simply... Kind. He truly cares for other people and would always prefer for him to suffer before others, and on certain occasions his concern for other people or for doing the right thing can make him break out of his deppression/insecurity to give way to his inner courage/kindness, and i think that's what makes him a hero for me. Gendo never really seemed to care much what he did to other people as long as he achieved his goal or what he believed was right, while Shinji's main reason for giving up on life was because he didn't believe there was anything good he could do for anyone (and because he believes he's never going to find happiness or love... But he's human)

Something else that i always found interesting in the series, is that Gendo never really seems to suffer or face pain from other people, while Shinji... you've seen the series.