Third Impact [ex-Editorium, for peer review]

[gchristnsn]

Beside that, I found many inaccuracies in the text that may need a correction:

“Yui's soul is completely absorbed into Unit-01 [...] this makes Shinji the only person who could pilot the unit.” That's actually untrue. Before 01 shut's herself (I'm traducing from the italian version of NGE, sorry if something doesn't correspond perfectly) in the latter of the series, Rei mutual exchange test with the 01 gives positive results, with a synch ratio slightly lower than with the 00 she seems capable of piloting 01. Moreover, in the manga she even pilots 01 against Sachiel.

Because CI says that only a mother's soul should present inside a Eva and facts say that this may be a soul or a personality of a relative, this is a pretty correct claim.

“Rei eats only condensed food in pills [...]” She eat ramen with Shinji, Asuka and Misato in one episode. Not to mention in the rebuild...

Yes, the Rebuild highlights this but you can see the pills at Ayanami's room.

“Kaworu meets Rei [...] this revelation probably makes her to visit the Terminal Dogma during the final fight where she finds her original body.” Rey was aware of Lilith in the Terminal Dogma before Ep.#24. It's Rei herself who extracts the Lance from Lilith, so no “Mmm... let's check what's downstairs. Oh! It's me!”.

Does she actually know that this is her body? She searches the answer of her origin through all the series, and even in the ep. 14 after she had met Lilith's body she thinks on this (but still don't know what she is). Yes, she may had felt it, and Kaworu's revelation just helped her to understand this.

the wiki says that the chamber of Guf is mentioned also in Ep.#21

Only in the UN video (this was just before the second impact).

The Lance is sent to the Dead Sea for "treatment", but that almost certainly refers to the actual Dead Sea.

As CI says, Lilith's lance was lost during the landing, and most likely it was lost at the Dead Sea (there were two lances), they ask is any processing of the delivered lance necessary before the experiment.

it is not something directly supported at any point by facts provided by the show or the supplementary materials.

There are two facts from the show: Seele asks Kaworu to help them to carry off their hope (to complement), they also aim to return the plan under their control. This suggests that there would be no impact (I completely missed this at first, and because of this I thought that there would be an impact). The fact that the chamber of Guf is empty and the forbidden reunion will not trigger an impact indirectly confirms this.

You accept Kaji's claims when it comes to the information he provided Misato, but not here? Now you're the one with a contradiction.

I've already told that there is a three-layer conspiracy (or you should explain by using just one additional entity why Seele classified the scrolls, why the military used conventional weapon against angels at the beginning, behavior of Ritsuko with the pendant at the bar, why Kaji was so nervous with the governmental agent, why Marduk was a dummy organization, what is the truth Seele had mentioned in the ep. 23, behavior of the military in EoE, I've already asked you about this, in my case all this caused by the information barriers of the conspiracy). The truth was from the top layer.

And of course, you're conflating Impact and the Forbidden Union, which is a mistake. The Forbidden Union results in Instrumentality, not Impact. The two are separate events that happened to coincide during 3I.

If you watch the UN video carefully, you will see the following chain: fusion of DNA -> actuation of the [anti AT-field] explosive system -> the second impact [which is an anti AT-field event]. So, human DNA should contain a DNA-marker which actuates the explosive system of Adam, and the forbidden reunion is just a reunion of genomes. An impact isn't triggered when the Chamber of Guf is empty.

No, you very much don't have facts confirming this interpretation. That's the whole problem, as has been explained to you repeatedly throughout this thread.

So, you want to say, that Seele didn't ask Kaworu to help them to carry out their hope and didn't intend to return the plan under their control?

But that aside there actually are facts supporting this interpretation, since Adam did in fact exterminate all life from the South Pole during that brief period when he was active. It is reasonable to assume he would do the same on a broader scale if given the chance.

Adam (and his offsprings) could not have a DNA-marker which initiates an impact or he will explode instantly (in addition, angels have no explosive system, or they would explode after a contact with 01).

He didn't lie to her at all. He was mistaken about the white giant's identity, but that was an error on his part borne of his knowledge of the Adam embryo, its origins, and its fate. Everything else he gave to Misato was the truth as he understood it.

If you watch EoE carefully with the idea of the conspiracy, you will find, that the truth is concerned of at least the real cause of the second impact (you inferred it from the assumption that the information about the third impact from angels is true, although you presented no facts to confirm that it's actually true), the instrumentality project (nothing was known to Misato), that this should be "like a heaven" for Seele (this, along with the path to divinity which is encoded into the symbolism and their fear of blasphemy, points to their religious nature).


------

So, you need to present a simple chain of facts to confirm that the information about the third impact from angels is true, or you have no reason for any speculations on this topic at the wiki.

[Reichu]

Yeah. The article needs some work. Is that what this comes down to?

I'll give it an overhaul myself if no one else will, though I can't guarantee that I'll satisfy everyone. Nothing about "conspiracies" is going in there, that's for sure.

[gchristnsn]

Nothing about "conspiracies" is going in there, that's for sure.

Quite solid statement confirmed by the chain of facts which proves that the information about the third impact from angels is true. Surely, I believe it.

[Reichu]

Quite solid statement confirmed by the chain of facts which proves that the information about the third impact from angels is true. Surely, I believe it.

^ This sounds like it might be snarky, but I honestly can't tell.

[gchristnsn]

^ This sounds like it might be snarky, but I honestly can't tell.

The problem is that it's not possible to know is this statement true or not if the mechanism of the impact is unknown. The only possibility to know this without the mechanism of the impact is to prove by facts that Adam was a target, and you also need to have the known consequences of a possible contact of Adam with an angel, such as in Kaworu's case (but he contacts Lilith, and he lies). But you can't prove or disprove that Adam was a target (Gaghiel is the sole possibility, but this encounter wasn't supposed as of Gendo, so the angel may be for other reasons there). In addition, you don't have any known consequences of a possible contact, so you can't prove or disprove this statement even if you proved that Adam was a target (there are also no facts which confirm that an angel to Lilith contact would produce an impact).
Although the mechanism of the impact from the UN video easily proves that this statement is false.

[ShIiNjI]

Because CI says that only a mother's soul should present inside a Eva and facts say that this may be a soul or a personality of a relative, this is a pretty correct claim.

Rei being made from Yui can't mean they're kind of relatives? Not to mention that she has the soul of whom generates all the humans. By the way you're deliberately denying the fact that Rei actually pilots the 01 in the manga e seems perfectly able to do the same in the series before 01/Yui lock herself making the synch with Ayanami or the Dummy Plug impossible.

Yes, the Rebuild highlights this but you can see the pills at Ayanami's room.

You can see pills in my room too, that doesn't mean that I eat condensed food pills due to my biochemical origins... In the first episode Rei is seriously injured, can't they be jus painkillers or any normal medicine? Again, you are denying the fact that she eats normally after the battle against Sahaquiel and it's clearly stated that she's vegetarian.

Does she actually know that this is her body? She searches the answer of her origin through all the series, and even in the ep. 14 after she had met Lilith's body she thinks on this (but still don't know what she is). Yes, she may had felt it, and Kaworu's revelation just helped her to understand this.

Rei knows of the herself inside the Eva, knows that Eva has a soul and seems to know a lot more thing than Shinji or Asuka along the whole series. When she unites with Lilith she states that she's home. Looks to me that she know exactly what that white giant is and what is its purpose, even before Ep.#24, unfortunately there is no way to prove it at 100% (but the same can be said for your theory).[/quote]

[Bagheera]

Yes, the Rebuild highlights this but you can see the pills at Ayanami's room.

We do not know their purpose. We also see Rei eating ordinary food in NGE.

There are two facts from the show: Seele asks Kaworu to help them to carry off their hope (to complement), they also aim to return the plan under their control.

Neither of these suggest Kaworu knew about Lilith. These items are consistent with the notion that they knew there would be no Impact event, but it's just as possible they knew Kaworu wouldn't create one of his own accord -- if he's playing a part, as you insist, the question of whether or not there'd actually be an Impact event is moot.

In other words if Kaworu is being honest it's likely SEELE knew there would be no Impact event, but if he's lying we can't tell one way or the other. This means you're left with either embracing a contradiction or accepting uncertainty.

I've already told that there is a three-layer conspiracy ( . . . ). The truth was from the top layer.

That's right, but the problem is that you're picking and choosing your facts without independent confirmation. We assume Kaji's information is correct, but we don't know its source and thus cannot verify any of it independently. That means we don't know if Kaji's error is the result of lies from SEELE or simply his own misunderstanding. You assume the former but there is no way to verify that (and indeed no particular reason to assume it unless you're trying to invent another layer of conspiracy).

If you watch the UN video carefully, you will see the following chain: fusion of DNA -> actuation of the [anti AT-field] explosive system -> the second impact [which is an anti AT-field event]. So, human DNA should contain a DNA-marker which actuates the explosive system of Adam, and the forbidden reunion is just a reunion of genomes. An impact isn't triggered when the Chamber of Guf is empty.

I have watched that video carefully, and that's how I know you're assuming all sorts of things here without foundation. First, that donor material is a person, not just DNA (this is not apparent from the translation, but Reichu and others have confirmed this based on the language used in the Japanese dub). Second, the Anti-ATF and the explosive system are not connected -- Adam's ATF is up long before the system and the S2 engine are linked. Third, we don't know how the explosive system was activated; note a significant amount of time has passed between initial contact and activation of said system. Finally, an Impact event most certainly can occur when the Chamger of Guf is empty, as that's exactly what happened in 3I.

Here's how it breaks down (Reichu, you wanted a second-by-second breakdown of that video, so here you go -- maybe this thread will wind up being worth a damn after all):

00:23:47: CE is underway. "It's surpassing calculated predictions."
00:23:50: Emergency is declared. Surface lights are blocked out.
00:23:52: The donor begins "physically uniting" with Adam. Personnel are instructed to put on their protective clothing.
00:23:54: Workers below level two are told to evacuate to Central Dogma.
00:23:56: There's an explosion of some sort on the video.
00:33:23: Fields have gone down. Reichu, does this mean ATFs? Surely not. Perhaps the protective clothing allows them to maintain their shapes even in an anti-ATF? But then Misato didn't appear to be wearing anything, so probably not. Maybe the anti-ATF isn't that strong yet?
00:33:24: The team attempts to pull back the Lance, but cannot. The "floor isn't holding up".
00:59:49: The Lance is "sinking".
00:59:50: They need to prevent further damage as much as possible.
00:59:53: They "break down the atomic structure, but keep it within the quark range." What this is referring to is unclear.
00:59:55: The camera falls over.
00:59:56: Instructions are issued to begin cooling when the Doors of Guf open.
01:00:00 Adam starts to walk.
01:00:01: My translation says they're trying to get an anti-ATF around him even if only for half a second (which I originally though was the method they used to reduce Adam to an embryonic state), but Reichu has indicated this is incorrect -- instead they're apparently trying to interrupt Adam's anti-ATF if only for half a second, so they can use the Lance to perform the reduction (this is not indicated in the show but is confirmed via Chronicle).
01:00:02: The conversion system is already set. Countdown has been activated.
01:00:04: The S2 Engine and the Explosive System are being linked. They can't stop it. Note this occurs 37 minutes after initial contact. Reichu, also note this occurs less a mere 15 seconds after the Lance starts "sinking". IMO this suggests the Lance is responsible for this linkage; Adam doesn't appear to want to explode at this point, and the team is clearly trying to stop the linkage. The Lance and the donor are the only other possible actors in play.
01:00:06: The wings are spreading. It's going to surface.
01:00:11: Video ends.

In the unlikely event this breakdown is somehow novel I'll create a new thread for it, but I'd be astonished if no one's done it already.

So, you want to say, that Seele didn't ask Kaworu to help them to carry out their hope and didn't intend to return the plan under their control?

Incorrect. I want to say that we don't know the full extent of Kaworu's knowledge or intent and that we likewise don't know SEELE lied about anything in specific. I'm saying you're making assumptions aplenty and that the facts you are using to justify them do not make for a compelling case (i.e. the facts are the facts, but the arguments you're making based on those facts are not convincing). Simply put you go too far.

Adam (and his offsprings) could not have a DNA-marker which initiates an impact or he will explode instantly (in addition, angels have no explosive system, or they would explode after a contact with 01).

This is incorrect. Sachiel self-destructs using exactly such a system.

Also, you're conflating events that are related by correlation but not causation. These events include:

-- the generation of an anti-ATF. Adam does this prior to the explosion during 2I, and the MPEs do this before GNR takes over 3I. The anti-ATFs alone do not lead to an Impact event.
-- the self-destruct system. This is seen in Adam, at least one Angel (Sachiel), and in the Evas (confirmed via Unit 00 in episode 23). This appears to be nothing other than a narrative crutch, as it doesn't seem to serve any purpose otherwise.
-- the S2 explosion. This occurs at the end of 2I, but it is not in itself responsible for 2I. 2I is the whole mess of the anti-ATF, the Doors of Guf opening, and the explosion at the end (which somehow took out Antarctica but left Misato alive; don't think we'll ever get an explanation for that one).

All of these effects are seen at various points in the show, and at no time do they generate an Impact event by themselves.

So, you need to present a simple chain of facts to confirm that the information about the third impact from angels is true, or you have no reason for any speculations on this topic at the wiki.

Kaworu's statements on the subject (which are supported by Misato's monologue in EoE) are more than sufficient. It is you who has to prove that Kaworu was lying before anyone will accept that such speculation is unwarranted.

(there are also no facts which confirm that an angel to Lilith contact would produce an impact).

Incorrect. The Angel endings of NGE2 prove this beyond all doubt.

[gchristnsn]

Rei being made from Yui can't mean they're kind of relatives? Not to mention that she has the soul of whom generates all the humans. By the way you're deliberately denying the fact that Rei actually pilots the 01 in the manga e seems perfectly able to do the same in the series before 01/Yui lock herself making the synch with Ayanami or the Dummy Plug impossible.

OK, this may be not a correctly built phrase which needs a more accurate definition. Gendo needs Rei advanced to a messiah for his variant of the instrumentality, so only Shinji can pilot 01 during it, and this should be a part of Yui's agenda (so she will admit no other possibility such as a dummy plug during the complementation because she needs Shinji's fear of solitude).

You can see pills in my room too, that doesn't mean that I eat condensed food pills due to my biochemical origins... In the first episode Rei is seriously injured, can't they be jus painkillers or any normal medicine? Again, you are denying the fact that she eats normally after the battle against Sahaquiel and it's clearly stated that she's vegetarian.

There is a symmetry between Kaworu and Rei and a logical chain which connects the mechanism of the forbidden reunion, biochemistry of the embryo (Kaworu compares Gendo with himself at the ep. 24) and the biochemistry of Kaworu's and Rei's body (it's possible to make a forbidden reunion between their original bodies and human incarnations). The use of pills is the consequence of this which is highlighted in the Rebuild (she also eats miso there). OK, I need to specify this.

Rei knows of the herself inside the Eva, knows that Eva has a soul and seems to know a lot more thing than Shinji or Asuka along the whole series. When she unites with Lilith she states that she's home. Looks to me that she know exactly what that white giant is and what is its purpose, even before Ep.#24, unfortunately there is no way to prove it at 100% (but the same can be said for your theory).

She knows this gradually, and only Kaworu's revelation helps her to connect this knowledge with the body at the Terminal Dogma and the containment vessel of clones. This is indicated by the fact that she had finally broken Gendo's glasses only after Kaworu's revelation.

[ShIiNjI]

Finally, an Impact event most certainly can occur when the Chamger of Guf is empty

I disagree.
Assuming that a Chamber of Guf is the place where all the souls stay before the born. I think that both Lilith's and Adam's body are (or contain) respectively two Chamber of Guf, the first initially containing all the souls of the Lilins, the second those of the Angels. In fact, in EoE, exactly after Fuyutsuki says that the doors of the Chamber of Guf are opening, during Third Impact, we see two apertures opening on the hands of Lilith. Indeed, the souls, while passing before through/around the Black Moon, are finally collected into those apertures, into the Chamber of Guf, the place where they originally dwelled before their born. Said this... during the Second Impact, Adam's Chamber of Guf is certainly NOT empty, containing Angel's souls. Angels where still unborn due to the Lance of Longinus suspending the process, their souls are shot into atmosphere during the explosion of the Second Impact. Thus, the emptiness of the Chamber of Guf is in-influent whit the triggering of an Impact event.
That's my opinion...

[Bagheera]

I disagree.

You'd be wrong. Again, Lilith's CoG was empty when 3I began.

Assuming that a Chamber of Guf is the place where all the souls stay before the born. I think that both Lilith's and Adam's body are (or contain) respectively two Chamber of Guf, the first containing all the souls of the Lilins, the second those of the Angels.

This is likewise incorrect. The souls of the Angels are the same as those of the Lilin; the only difference is the physical form granted to them by their respective Seeds.

In fact, in EoE, exactly after Fuyutsuki says that the doors of the Chamber of Guf are opening, during Third Impact, we see two apertures opening on the hands of Lilith.

Of course. One allows them to enter the Chamber, while the other allows them to exit. This indicates two openings, not two Chambers.

Said this... during the Second Impact, Adam's Chamber of Guf is certainly NOT empty, containing Angel's souls.

Well, yes. I don't think anyone's claimed otherwise.

[ShIiNjI]

Yes, two apertures are two entrances/exits only to one chamber, Lilith's one. But saying that there is only one Chamber for both Angels and Lilins, this would mean that there is only one Chamber of Guf also for all the other life forms formed (or that will be formed) by the other Seeds of Life (they were 7 standing to C.I., right?) spread across the universe. So one Chamber for each Seed and while during the Third Impact Lilith's is empty, during the Second Impact Adam's isn't. Moreover, even if there is only one Chamber for both, during Second Impact it still contains Angel souls which born where suspended by the Lance.
Thus the in-influence.

[Bagheera]

Yes, two apertures are two entrances/exits only to one chamber, Lilith's one. But saying that there is only one Chamber for both Angels and Lilins, this would mean that there is only one Chamber of Guf also for all the other life forms formed (or that will be formed) by the other Seeds of Life (they were 7 standing to C.I., right?) spread across the universe.

Huh? I don't think anyone's ever claimed that. There's one Chamber per Seed, yes. Why would you think anyone had claimed anything different?

[gchristnsn]

We do not know their purpose. We also see Rei eating ordinary food in NGE.

The pills is just a hint for a biochemistry (and there are no other obvious possibilities). It affects nothing, so you may not believe it.

Neither of these suggest Kaworu knew about Lilith.

There is a simple reasoning which I gave earlier which shows that Kaworu knew about Lilith: he knows about Lilith and Adam from Seele, and he knows that Adam's body is inside Gendo, so he should know that the giant could not be Adam.

In other words if Kaworu is being honest it's likely SEELE knew there would be no Impact event, but if he's lying we can't tell one way or the other. This means you're left with either embracing a contradiction or accepting uncertainty.

Seele aims to return control of the plan and asks Kaworu to help them with their hope. Kaworu shows, that he knows what their hope is (and this is the path to Adam Kadmon, which implies that he got instructions from Seele), this means that the reunion would not produce an impact. He needs to play to find out what Shinji's hope is (Seele said that there are as many hopes as people) and what the side he should take.

That's right, but the problem is that you're picking and choosing your facts without independent confirmation. We assume Kaji's information is correct, but we don't know its source and thus cannot verify any of it independently. That means we don't know if Kaji's error is the result of lies from SEELE or simply his own misunderstanding. You assume the former but there is no way to verify that (and indeed no particular reason to assume it unless you're trying to invent another layer of conspiracy).

I don't know how to show you the conspiracy, you don't see it, so nothing strange here. I already explained you, that some truth exists which is referenced from Seele [Seele, ep. 23]. CI says that the Nerv staff was told (and three levels of the CI reflect the structure of the conspiracy). I ask you to answer questions why Seele classified the scrolls, why the military used conventional weapon against angels, to prove that the statement about the third impact from angels is true or false, and other things but you still didn't do this. I tell you that this are the consequences of the existence of the information barriers (or there is no need in a triple-agent), you don't believe it. What can I do?

I have watched that video carefully, and that's how I know you're assuming all sorts of things here without foundation.

Yes, this is a pure assumption based on a chain of facts. Despite of that, in the ep. 5 Ritsuko references the DNA of humans and angels, also there are hints for biochemistry and helical biotechnology in CI. Because we assume that there is no occult magic but only the science of the first ancestral race, it's reasonable to conclude that only DNA may contain a key which triggers an anti AT-field impact, because DNA contains information.
There should be a reason to separate species and to prevent the creation of a god-like being. At the same time an anti AT-field impact could be used to reunite the humanity, so it may be referenced in the manual for the lance in the scrolls. It's possible, that the forbidden reunion triggers just a global devastation without an anti AT-field emission, but connection with the fact that Lilith's lance was found at the Dead Sea littered with the pillars of salt shows that anti-AT field could be emitted without human involvement. So it's quite reasonable to exterminate other species using anti-AT field, although of course this is a pure speculation. I will think on this.
You may not believe it, but without the mechanism of the impact there are no hints to conclude is the statement about the third impact from angels correct or not, and you need to find a way to show that it's correct, if you consider that you can use this assumption on the wiki.

I want to say that we don't know the full extent of Kaworu's knowledge or intent and that we likewise don't know SEELE lied about anything in specific. I'm saying you're making assumptions aplenty and that the facts you are using to justify them do not make for a compelling case (i.e. the facts are the facts, but the arguments you're making based on those facts are not convincing). Simply put you go too far.

Yes, and this is the part of the obfuscation. But you can get a solution without contradictions only by using correct assumptions. Assumption that there would be an impact implies that Seele doesn't hope to return control of their plan (they told this at the meeting, so this could not be a part of deceive, if you assume that Kaworu was deceived).

Kaworu's statements on the subject (which are supported by Misato's monologue in EoE) are more than sufficient. It is you who has to prove that Kaworu was lying before anyone will accept that such speculation is unwarranted.

The prove is in the paragraph above.

Incorrect. The Angel endings of NGE2 prove this beyond all doubt.

This is may be a part of the game mechanics. Until you don't know the mechanism of the impact, explain why contact of 01 with the angels didn't triggered an impact, or found a way to prove that the statement about the third impact from angels is true, you have no reasons to say so.

[ShIiNjI]

Huh? I don't think anyone's ever claimed that. There's one Chamber per Seed, yes. Why would you think anyone had claimed anything different?

Uh... sorry, I misunderstood and found that previously I wrote “respectively two” instead of “one”. My fault

But then... why should I be wrong when I say that the emptiness is in-influent. During Second Impact it is NOT empty, during Third Impact it is. Where am I wrong?

[Bagheera]

There is a simple reasoning which I gave earlier which shows that Kaworu knew about Lilith: he knows about Lilith and Adam from Seele, and he knows that Adam's body is inside Gendo, so he should know that the giant could not be Adam.

While that is consistent it is not necessarily the only explanation. However, I have made this same argument in the past so I'm not inclined to oppose it much. That said, everything we're shown in the show argues against it. It technically fits the facts presented, but it does not appear to be Anno's intent.

I don't know how to show you the conspiracy, you don't see it, so nothing strange here. I already explained you, that some truth exists which is referenced from Seele [Seele, ep. 23]. CI says that the Nerv staff was told (and three levels of the CI reflect the structure of the conspiracy). I ask you to answer questions why Seele classified the scrolls, why the military used conventional weapon against angels, to prove that the statement about the third impact from angels is true or false, and other things but you still didn't do this. I tell you that this are the consequences of the existence of the information barriers (or there is no need in a triple-agent), you don't believe it. What can I do?

Pay attention. The question isn't whether or not there was a conspiracy, since nobody doubts that there was. The question is whether it indicates the things you seem to think it does. When we say "no, that doesn't follow" your response is "well, prove there wasn't a conspiracy!" But we don't have to do that to note inconsistencies in your line of reasoning.

In short, the conspiracy, SEELE's intent, and the lies SEELE told (if any) are related but unconnected items. It is possible to question/deny one of them without questioning/denying the others.

Yes, this is a pure assumption based on a chain of facts. Despite of that, in the ep. 5 Ritsuko references the DNA of humans and angels, also there are hints for biochemistry and helical biotechnology in CI. Because we assume that there is no occult magic but only science of the first ancestral race, it's reasonable to conclude that only DNA may contain a key which triggers an anti AT-field impact, because DNA contains information.

No, that's not reasonable at all. Souls are far more important than DNA in NGE, so assuming DNA is the only way to trigger Impact events is absurd.

You may not believe it, but without the mechanism of the impact there are no hints to conclude is the statement about the third impact from angels correct or not, and you need to find a way to show that it's correct, if you consider that you can use this assumption on the wiki.

This whole paragraph is nonsensical, and in any event is unrelated to anything shown during 2I.

Yes, and this is the part of the obfuscation. But you can get a solution without contradictions only by using correct assumptions. Assumption that there would be an impact implies that Seele doesn't hope to return control of their plan (they told this at the meeting, so this could not be a part of deceive, if you assume that Kaworu was deceived).

Sorry, no. If Kaworu is being deceitful we have no reason to speculate either way about the effects of a meeting between Angels and Adam (since Kaworu's our only source of info on the subject and the premise is that he's being deceitful). Your claim that SEELE is lying is therefore incorrect (at best we don't know). If Kaworu is not being deceitful things would happen as he says.

So: If Kaworu is lying we don't know what happens. If he's telling the truth things happen as he describes. At no point do lies from SEELE enter the picture. But here's the important point: you can't assume Kaworu is lying. Here are a number of factors you do not appear to have considered:

-- Consider transubstantiation. It's possible to say "Adam is reborn in Gendo" even as the body of Adam is somewhere else. It works for Christians, and the show borrows heavily from Christian mythology. In this case Kaworu might think he's pursuing Adam in TD even though he knows Adam's been reborn in Gendo.
-- Kaworu may be correct regarding Angel contact with Adam, but not with Lilith. Alternately, he might be correct with Adam and with a complete Lilith but not with the soulless husk in TD. Either way SEELE's plans are not in danger at any point and Kaworu is still telling the truth. This approach becomes even more compelling if SEELE knows about Rei, since it would result in parsimony with the Angel ending of NGE2.
-- Kaworu might have been fully on board with SEELE's plans, and thus intended to initiate and control 3I according to their whims. This is a shaky plan at best, but it's hardly worse than placing all of your hopes and dreams in the hands of a mentally damaged fourteen-year-old. In this case no deception was necessary since either Adam or Lilith would do the trick. But Kaworu changed his mind just as the show says he did and chose death instead.

I'm sure there are other possibilities as well. The bottom line here is simple: you assume too much.

This is may be a part of the game mechanics. Until you don't know the mechanism of the impact, explain why contact of 01 with the angels didn't triggered an impact, or found a way to prove that the statement about the third impact from angels is true, you have no reasons to say so.

It's the same reason Kaworu couldn't use a soulless MPE to trigger 3I: he needed an original SoL body. The Evangelions are clones of the Seeds, and thus inadequate for the task on their own (this is supported by Unit 01's transformation in EoE: even though she's technically a god once she gets the S2 organ she isn't actually a god until GNR transforms her (apparently using the Lance to do it). It's only at the end that she becomes as Lilith was; merely being a clone of Lilith wasn't enough to make it happen).

Also, the soul of a Seed might be required. Note the bizarre effects of contact between Unit 00 and Armisael in episode 23; the fact that this occurred with no more than a fragment of Lilith's soul suggests that the complete soul and a proper SoL body would have much more profound effects (which is exactly what we see both in EOE and NGE2).

But regardless, canon materials tell us that an Impact event can result from contact between an Angel and Lilith. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge this fact is immaterial.

Uh... sorry, I misunderstood and found that previously I wrote “respectively two” instead of “one”. My fault

But then... why should I be wrong when I say that the emptiness is in-influent. During Second Impact it is NOT empty, during Third Impact it is. Where am I wrong?

Well, you disagreed with the notion that Impact can occur with an empty Chamber of Guf, so that's what I was getting at. I think the rest is just a miscommunication; the way you wrote it it sounded like you were saying Lilith and Adam each had two Chambers of Guf, but looking at what you wrote again that doesn't seem to be your intent.

[ShIiNjI]

I just read again all our discussion and yes... we were essentially saying the same thing, just with my misreading and engRish to ruin it all. I'll go and bury myself under tons of english grammar books :P

[EvangelionFan]

and [Kaworu] knows that Adam's body is inside Gendo, so he should know that the giant could not be Adam.

Woah, I don't remember anything like that... I might have missed it? In any case, it is rather well accepted that Kaworu doesn't realise that the giant in the basement is not Adam until he is face-on in front of it. And supposing if Kaworu thinks or even knows that Adam's body is in/on Gendo's hand, why doesn't he go after Gendo?

Adam Kadmon

Has anyone else on the boards used this term while discussing these facets of NGE? Is it in the script, or the CI? If not... please use more common terminology.

I already explained you, that some truth exists which is referenced from Seele [Seele, ep. 23]. CI says that the Nerv staff was told (and three levels of the CI reflect the structure of the conspiracy). I ask you to answer questions why Seele classified the scrolls, why the military used conventional weapon against angels, to prove that the statement about the third impact from angels is true or false,

Why Seele classified the scrolls? Umm, probably because if their contents were publicly known it would be a contradiction of their 'blanket' theory about the faster-than-light meteor impact as the reason for 2I.

As for why the military using conventional weaponry... In Episode 1, the plot has been set up so that the military uses ineffective conventional weaponry, therefore forcing the situation to fall to NERV, who handle the situation with Project E. From here it is fair to reason why the military continues to use conventional weaponry in series: if at any point the military were to acquire or create weapons that are effective against the angels, and the 'official' purpose of Project E (that is, as a defensive against the Angels) would be rendered moot (though their use in the human instrumentality project would no doubt continue). And if there isn't a good 'Official' reason for Project E, it is rather hard to get permission to have children participate in questionable pseudo-scientific experiments, let alone get permission to have said children operate giant cyborgs.

By the way, how is the Third Impact theory related to what weapons the military use? Oh wait, too late...

You may not believe it, but without the mechanism of the impact there are no hints to conclude is the statement about the third impact from angels correct or not, and you need to find a way to show that it's correct, if you consider that you can use this assumption on the wiki.

Are you saying that, because there wasn't an Angel-initiated 3I in the series, we have no reason to be assuming how an Angel-initiated 3I would have occured based on the information given by the in-the-know characters? And if... actually, you know what, screw this. Just go re-read Bagheera's response.

---

gchristnsn, I continue to have difficulty following your style of writing. If you want to be clearer, please cut down on the use of commas and use one question per sentence because I honestly have no idea what or which things you are asking for.

If you wanted us to re-write what is stated on the Wiki, no less than six hours ago did Reichu offer to re-write the relevant articles to account for some of the points raised in this thread. With that in mind, I am of the opinion that this thread deserves a break until the Wiki contributors have had some time to re-read and re-write what is up there.

[thewayneiac]

Yeah. The article needs some work. Is that what this comes down to?

I'll give it an overhaul myself if no one else will, though I can't guarantee that I'll satisfy everyone. Nothing about "conspiracies" is going in there, that's for sure.

I made a stab starting the process. In the Angels article I changed this:

The cues in the show itself regarding the Angels intentions are varied and ambiguous. Some of them lend the common impression that the Angels are trying to return to Adam, in automaton-like manner, although the Angels' behavior is hardly consistent enough to support this. One explanation of their motivations, found in the Classified Information states, "Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam."

to this:

The clues in the show itself regarding the Angels' intentions are varied and ambiguous. Kaji states in [[Episode 19]] that the Angels are trying to make contact with Adam, which would bring on a Third Impact which would destroy all mankind, and the behavior of some Angels is consistent with this statement. However, this gives rise to the question "Why were the Angels attacking Nerv H.Q. before Adam arrived there?" At one time, the most widely accepted theory was that they were mistaking Lilith for Adam, as Kaworu seems to do in Ep. 24. The main competing theory was that Nerv was tricking the Angels by sending out false "Adam Signals". However, this was rejected by many fans who sited the lack of evidence in the series for such signals. It has also been suggested that Kaji's statement is untrue, and the Angels were never after Adam. The inclusion of the Classified Information in the NGE 2 game finally provided what is now the most widely accepted explanation for this seeming contradiction: some Angels were after Adam, others after Lilith.

"Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam."

If this looks good, I'll add something similar to the Third Impact article.

[gchristnsn]

While that is consistent it is not necessarily the only explanation.

Absolutely. There may be more than one way to explain this. The simplest is most likely to be true. It's necessary to pick the simplest one. At first I missed several facts, so I had a different results. You may disagree with me, but until you don't have a non-contradictory way to explain a broad set of events (for example, why implantation of the embryo doesn't triggers the impact but the first contact experiment triggers), you could not be sure that your explanation doesn't raise contradictions somewhere else. The game is to build a simplest non-contradictory explanation, and it's impossible to be sure is it correct or not. So, it's pointless to argue on separate points.

Pay attention. The question isn't whether or not there was a conspiracy, since nobody doubts that there was. The question is whether it indicates the things you seem to think it does. When we say "no, that doesn't follow" your response is "well, prove there wasn't a conspiracy!" But we don't have to do that to note inconsistencies in your line of reasoning.
In short, the conspiracy, SEELE's intent, and the lies SEELE told (if any) are related but unconnected items. It is possible to question/deny one of them without questioning/denying the others.

My line of reasoning here is reductionism and simplicity. It's possible to build a non-contradictory explanation of facts. I asked you a series of questions. You answered that there is the affiliation of Seele with the government, Kaji was killed because he freed Fuyutsuki, although this directly contradicts to what you see. You don't want to answer questions about what is the truth Seele mentioned in the case of Ritsuko, why Seele classified the scrolls and so on. Why? There is a simple explanation for this set of events (the information barriers of the conspiracy), and you simple don't want to admit it or simple can't build a non-contradictory explanation from your picture. Because of my line of reasoning I consider your solution inconsistent, and this is most likely true, because it's more complex than my explanation. And, again, the belief that the second impact is a humanitarian action hides the information barriers. Because of this you don't believe in the conspiracy at all or have no explanation of some facts, and this indicates that something is wrong with this belief.

No, that's not reasonable at all. Souls are far more important than DNA in NGE, so assuming DNA is the only way to trigger Impact events is absurd.

It's good, you begun to think.

This whole paragraph is nonsensical, and in any event is unrelated to anything shown during 2I.

I already explained why do you need the mechanism of the impact, or I don't understand what are you talking about.

Sorry, no. If Kaworu is being deceitful we have no reason to speculate either way about the effects of a meeting between Angels and Adam (since Kaworu's our only source of info on the subject and the premise is that he's being deceitful). Your claim that SEELE is lying is therefore incorrect (at best we don't know). If Kaworu is not being deceitful things would happen as he says.

So: If Kaworu is lying we don't know what happens. If he's telling the truth things happen as he describes. At no point do lies from SEELE enter the picture. But here's the important point: you can't assume Kaworu is lying. Here are a number of factors you do not appear to have considered:

-- Consider transubstantiation. It's possible to say "Adam is reborn in Gendo" even as the body of Adam is somewhere else. It works for Christians, and the show borrows heavily from Christian mythology. In this case Kaworu might think he's pursuing Adam in TD even though he knows Adam's been reborn in Gendo.
-- Kaworu may be correct regarding Angel contact with Adam, but not with Lilith. Alternately, he might be correct with Adam and with a complete Lilith but not with the soulless husk in TD. Either way SEELE's plans are not in danger at any point and Kaworu is still telling the truth. This approach becomes even more compelling if SEELE knows about Rei, since it would result in parsimony with the Angel ending of NGE2.
-- Kaworu might have been fully on board with SEELE's plans, and thus intended to initiate and control 3I according to their whims. This is a shaky plan at best, but it's hardly worse than placing all of your hopes and dreams in the hands of a mentally damaged fourteen-year-old. In this case no deception was necessary since either Adam or Lilith would do the trick. But Kaworu changed his mind just as the show says he did and chose death instead.

I'm sure there are other possibilities as well. The bottom line here is simple: you assume too much.

I propose the simplest solution in my picture. There are no facts to explain this without the mechanism of forbidden reunion. There are fact related to it, so it's quite reasonable to use these facts. I can assume that Kaworu is lying because the implantation doesn't triggers the impact and Seele intend to return control of their plan which also doesn't implies an impact. The answer should be connected to biochemistry and the state of the Chamber of Guf, because the state of the chamber has changed and the connection of the core with the explosive system is mentioned during the second impact. I assume as least as I can, and this is an example of a reduction. This is my line of reasoning here.

It's the same reason Kaworu couldn't use a soulless MPE to trigger 3I: he needed an original SoL body. The Evangelions are clones of the Seeds, and thus inadequate for the task on their own (this is supported by Unit 01's transformation in EoE: even though she's technically a god once she gets the S2 organ she isn't actually a god until GNR transforms her (apparently using the Lance to do it). It's only at the end that she becomes as Lilith was; merely being a clone of Lilith wasn't enough to make it happen).

Also, the soul of a Seed might be required. Note the bizarre effects of contact between Unit 00 and Armisael in episode 23; the fact that this occurred with no more than a fragment of Lilith's soul suggests that the complete soul and a proper SoL body would have much more profound effects (which is exactly what we see both in EOE and NGE2).

But regardless, canon materials tell us that an Impact event can result from contact between an Angel and Lilith. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge this fact is immaterial.

Reductionist way of thinking gets simpler picture. Transformed 01 wasn't an original part of Seele's plan, so only the lance is necessary to form the tree of life in a combination with a messiah. If to assume that souls are necessary for the impact, an impact requires souls of different species to trigger the connection between the core and the explosive system (as in the case of the second impact), because there is no reason in such a system if there is no reason to separate the species. System which uses souls of the same species may lead to a suicide of the ecosystem. But DNA is more real and it perfectly fits in the conception of the separation of the species. The souls are important only to the concept of Adam Kadmon.

I might have missed it

Yes, Kaworu compares himself with Gendo.

if Kaworu thinks or even knows that Adam's body is in/on Gendo's hand, why doesn't he go after Gendo?

This is a yet another manifestation of the fact that the statement about the third impact is false. The fact that the giant is Lilith is proved earlier through the connection with 01.

Has anyone else on the boards used this term while discussing these facets of NGE? Is it in the script, or the CI? If not... please use more common terminology.

Yes, this mentioned in CI.

Umm, probably because if their contents were publicly known it would be a contradiction of their 'blanket' theory about the faster-than-light meteor impact as the reason for 2I.

Exactly, and this is the outer information barrier of the conspiracy. The military used conventional weapon against angels because of it. They were not in affiliation with Seele and knew absolutely nothing. This explains why they preserve the original of MAGI in EoE. But there is also an inner barrier which hides the instrumentality project from its performers.

Are you saying that, because there wasn't an Angel-initiated 3I in the series, we have no reason to be assuming how an Angel-initiated 3I would have occured based on the information given by the in-the-know characters? And if... actually, you know what, screw this. Just go re-read Bagheera's response.

I explained earlier why it's not possible not to prove not to disprove the statement about the third impact from angels without this (there are no known consequences of a possible contact of an angel with Adam, and known possibilities of the contact of a clone of angel with Lilith through the lance in two episodes).

-----------------

By the way, I see that I can't convince you in anything because you're not bound by the concept of a simplest non-contradictory theory which explains observable facts, so probably all this is pointless.
I hope that you have understood that you can not be sure that the statement about the third impact from angels is true and at least remove all the speculations on this topic from the wiki, to not to prevent freedom of thoughts. I account on your feeling of responsibility.

[Bagheera]

If this looks good, I'll add something similar to the Third Impact article.

I'd remove the bit about the "Adam signals", since it doesn't seem to be a popular theory and in any event appears to be discredited by the CI material. After the question about why the Angels were attacking Nerv HQ I'd segue directly to the CI material, saying something like "The Classified Information provided by the NGE 2 game addresses this question, saying ". . . "". So, keep the first three sentences, drop the rest, and finish as above. The final version would look something like this:

The clues in the show itself regarding the Angels' intentions are varied and ambiguous. Kaji states in [[Episode 19]] that the Angels are trying to make contact with Adam, which would bring on a Third Impact which would destroy all mankind, and the behavior of some Angels is consistent with this statement. However, this gives rise to the question "Why were the Angels attacking Nerv H.Q. before Adam arrived there?" The Classified Information provided by the NGE 2 game addresses this question, saying "Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam."

I'm a little bit dubious about that quote, since it seems to just be describing what we see in the show rather than providing any actual insight to the Angels' motivations. But it is what it is, so including it in the wiki is fair game.