Eva Piloting as Job/Art metaphor

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

Forum rules
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion and abide by them.
Lucretius
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 1398
Joined: Jul 31, 2008
Location: Italy, EU
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Lucretius » Wed May 18, 2011 11:19 am

View Original PostXard wrote:.....guys, I thought this had been long established thing. :|

Piloting Evangelion = directing anime is one of THE keys in understanding eva


ITT: naive biographism.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

Life is a continuous nut-kicking contest where your turn comes last if ever. -majlund

Proud supporter of Shinji x Sachiel

Xard
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 14236
Joined: Jan 03, 2008

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Xard » Wed May 18, 2011 11:21 am

View Original PostLucretius wrote:ITT: naive biographism.


lol

“Evangelion is my life and I have put everything I know into this work. This is my entire life. My life itself.”

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 38
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat May 21, 2011 7:07 am

View Original Postkatastroff wrote:I remember this "Identity between reality and dreams" theme also in Anno's film Shiki-Jitsu, in which he himself wanted to play as the main character...
Good post katastroff. I wrote about the connections between NGE and Shiki-Jitsu concerning that topic in my review for the latter, which will be posted on Cinelogue (see sig) whenever they get around to posting the One-Year Anniversary reviews.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:It's basically just fascism as applied to critique.
Very much true, and I think that's why so many people have trouble with works that disallow for that kind of authoritative interpretation like 2001. They simply engender too many competing ideas.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:On the one hand, one needs to do one's job to have what you need to live/stay with the ppl you know. PPl will tell you to, expecially if you're good at it. On the other hand, completely depending on it doesn't do you any good either, because you are more than just your job/role in society, you can be more or less replaced in a job, your individuality is somewhere else. - It's a thin line that the characters struggle to find.
Yeah, I think you're dead on here, and I don't think I intended for my interpretation of it to be so dark, but I think that's how Anno sees it. It was, after all, much of the crux of his depression and crisis. I think his coming to terms with it and learning how to deal was a large part of what shaped the journey of NGE's characters.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:...And spare me with that Death of the Author nonsense.
How can anything be in there that no one PUT there?
For I long answer I addressed that in part 1 of my essay here.

For a short answer, people (including artists) cannot be 100% aware of their intentions, their method of communication, and the implications of that communication all of the time. Semiotics is a complex subject that's at the heart of art and interpretation, and it can't all be boiled down to what authors intended. Intentions, at best, are at the root of creativity but they they don't constitute the entire trunk and limbs. There's simply too much that happens during the creative process for an artist to have control over all of it. I write poetry and I constantly come back to pieces and find motifs and implications there that I didn't intend at the time, but I can't possibly say they aren't there because they clearly are. I think most artists have experienced this at some point. It seems to me to be critics and audiences that are more offended by the "death of the author" concepts than artists, because they understand that they if they wanted to dictate meaning/intention they wouldn't be an artist to begin with.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6697
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Sat May 21, 2011 9:53 am

Don't pull the 1337 intellectual on me. I don't know if it's different with poems, I'm admittedly moreof a prose person, but I happen to be a writer, and not exactly as sucky one, seing as I got six publishing companies interested in my first book, with the boss of the thing who has probably seen a lot of books in his life personally commenting on how he liked it. from what I heard, you normally have a hard time finding just one.
There probably are stories that are written just to entertain - absolutely forgettable B-Movies and the like. But most wothwhile stories are usually created as an act of comunication - there are feelings to be expressed, messages to get across....
If the work is important to you, you may end up putting a bit of yourself in there. Now, if people go and don't find what you wanted to tell you, it's like... like you spilled your inner feelings to someone and they didn't get what you were saying. It's frustrating! And then, they accusse you of having said exactly the oposite of what you meant and cowardly denying it later, or of havind some sort of "inner ulterior motives".
Just imagina that! It's creepy as hell.

Humans are allways looking for patters because of their limitations, and end up imposing their own perception influenced by their own life and attitude, their own opinion of what they think it should be/want it to be on something they could never possibly create themselves, disregarding what it actually is.
Last edited by Kendrix on Sat May 21, 2011 10:00 am, edited 4 times in total.
I wanted to try harvesting the rice

I wanted to hold Tsubame more

I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like

Xard
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 14236
Joined: Jan 03, 2008

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Xard » Sat May 21, 2011 9:55 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Don't pull the 1337 intellectual on me.


spouting pseudointellectual sillyness is Jimbo's second nature Kendrix. It can't be helped

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 38
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat May 21, 2011 10:19 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Don't pull the 1337 intellectual on me.
WTF? I don't know what your post had to do with anything I said. Your writing credentials have nothing to do whether or not there's more (or less) there than you intended. Yes, stories and all art are about communication, but it might behoove you to ask why people would choose stories to "communicate" at all when language is already perfectly capable of doing that, and just what is lost/gained in the storytelling communicative process and why it's valuable at all. Whose fault is it when a reader doesn't "get" what you're saying? How do you determine that?

View Original PostXard wrote:spouting pseudointellectual sillyness is Jimbo's second nature Kendrix. It can't be helped
Spouting unargued silly propositions is Xard's second nature. It could be helped, but he's been brainwashed by moe.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

Xard
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 14236
Joined: Jan 03, 2008

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Xard » Sat May 21, 2011 10:22 am

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:Spouting unargued silly propositions is Xard's second nature. It could be helped, but he's been brainwashed by moe.


Your post is all the argument I need

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 38
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat May 21, 2011 10:54 am

View Original PostXard wrote:Your post is all the argument I need
My post doesn't argue for your conclusion anywhere except in your deranged mind where words only correspond to what you want them to.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

child of Lilith
Celestial Serendipity
Celestial Serendipity
User avatar
Posts: 11940
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Location: Egg of Lilith

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby child of Lilith » Sat May 21, 2011 10:54 am

Let's try to keep it above the belt, guys.
"Let the right one in. Let the old dreams die. Let the wrong ones go. They cannot do, what you want them to do."- Morrissey, Let the Right One Slip In

"Happy people can be so cruel"- Claudia, Silent Hill 3

"everlasting, true love, I am yours"- Rule of Rose

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 38
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat May 21, 2011 10:57 am

View Original Postchild of Lilith wrote:Keep it above the belt, guys.
I can't help it if certain people resort to cheap shot ad hominems because they can't form a coherent counter-argument.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

child of Lilith
Celestial Serendipity
Celestial Serendipity
User avatar
Posts: 11940
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Location: Egg of Lilith

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby child of Lilith » Sat May 21, 2011 11:04 am

You have to keep in mind that Xard is probably trolling. You are one of his favorite targets, remember. I'm just trying to head this off before the mods have to get involved.
"Let the right one in. Let the old dreams die. Let the wrong ones go. They cannot do, what you want them to do."- Morrissey, Let the Right One Slip In

"Happy people can be so cruel"- Claudia, Silent Hill 3

"everlasting, true love, I am yours"- Rule of Rose

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 38
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat May 21, 2011 11:10 am

View Original Postchild of Lilith wrote:You have to keep in mind that Xard is probably trolling.
Naaaaaaaaaah, SURELY thou jesteth!
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

Xard
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 14236
Joined: Jan 03, 2008

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Xard » Sat May 21, 2011 11:18 am

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:My post doesn't argue for your conclusion anywhere except in your deranged mind where words only correspond to what you want them to.


The great, delicious irony here is that following death of the author logic that would be perfectly valid of me :lol:

Thanks for proving theory's sillyness by getting all buttmad about this :P

child of Lilith
Celestial Serendipity
Celestial Serendipity
User avatar
Posts: 11940
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Location: Egg of Lilith

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby child of Lilith » Sat May 21, 2011 11:36 am

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:Naaaaaaaaaah, SURELY thou jesteth!
If you know what he's doing, why go along with it? I can't see you gaining anything by doing so.
"Let the right one in. Let the old dreams die. Let the wrong ones go. They cannot do, what you want them to do."- Morrissey, Let the Right One Slip In

"Happy people can be so cruel"- Claudia, Silent Hill 3

"everlasting, true love, I am yours"- Rule of Rose

MugwumpHasNoLiver
Erotic Humiliation
Erotic Humiliation
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 3139
Joined: Jan 17, 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Sat May 21, 2011 11:37 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:I happen to be a writer, and not exactly as sucky one, seing as I got six publishing companies interested in my first book


Are any of those vanity presses, by any chance? You'll have to excuse me, but I find that this stretches credibility just a tad. The publishing industry might be a little different in Germany, but it's a real anomaly that a seventeen year old girl can write a publishable novel, especially when it's just her first book, let alone get six publishers interested in it. Then again, you can simply be a natural literary genius, and if that is true, then I would like to make your acquaintance. I would ask if you wouldn't mind letting me read a few choice excerpts from your book, but I assume you're writing in German, correct?

Humans are allways looking for patters because of their limitations, and end up imposing their own perception influenced by their own life and attitude, their own opinion of what they think it should be/want it to be on something they could never possibly create themselves, disregarding what it actually is.


I certainly don't disagree with you. Some people certainly do like to latch on to specific elements in a work that they like, and ignore anything that contradicts their own personal interpretation. However, sometimes people can take advantage of vagueness and holes in authorial intent. I do agree with Jimbo, but not to the extent that I would ever validate the death of the author theory. As a writer myself, I also like to meticulously plan things out, but, much to my delight, I frequently find patterns and strands that weave throughout my work, which I'd never consciously intended.

In a way, it reminds me of something that the great visual artist David Lynch once said, about how he doesn't like to write intellectually, but instinctually. At first, I was taken aback by this comment, but then I thought about it for awhile. "Instinct" is essentially things that you know, but don't recognize on a conscious level. When you work on instinct, you work straight from the subconscious. You are putting yourself in your work, but you don't realize that you are. If you discover it, say, halfway through a rewrite, you can work it on the conscious level, and ingrain it more thoroughly into the text. To attempt to ignore an entire sphere of how the human mind works is a great insult to the puzzle of the creative process.
Last edited by MugwumpHasNoLiver on Sat May 21, 2011 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Now, from Nature we obtain abundant information about ourselves, and precious little about others. About the woman you clasp in your arms, can you say with certainty that she does not feign pleasure? About the woman you mistreat, are you quite sure that from abuse she does not derive some obscure and lascivious satisfaction? Let us confine ourselves to simple evidence: through thoughtfulness, gentleness, concern for the feelings of others we saddle our own pleasure with restrictions, and make this sacrifice to obtain a doubtful result." -The Divine Marquis

"I agree Hans, but we have talked about those anal fisting analogies." -Werner Herzog

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 6697
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Sat May 21, 2011 1:04 pm

Maybe Jimbo uses that "subconcious" method, I guess that would work with poems.
I agree that you sometimes just do things because they feel right or because it matches the picture in your mind... but even these subconcious elements ultimately come from the creator....
But we're getting a tad off topic here I guess.

BTW:
SPOILER: Show
I tried smaller publishing companies (but still proper ones) on purpose because I'd read that the chance with the big ones were even lousier, since those are often more interested in translating and selling american stuff, but I didn't make this up.
I really didn't want to sound arrogant in any way... I just wanted to make clear that I'm not some wanabe crisizing an actual poet.
It IS in German, tough.

Lots of artists on this forum. One, two, three... I guess that's a good sighn XD
I wanted to try harvesting the rice

I wanted to hold Tsubame more

I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like

EdmundC
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 32
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 31, 2011
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby EdmundC » Sat May 21, 2011 7:17 pm

I'll admit, OP makes me think about the implications of berserker states as "FOR FUCK'S SAKE YOU'RE DOING IT ALL WRONG. LET ME HANDLE IT" influences on the job.


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 13 guests