Old FUNime Tsurumaki Interview

[Kendrix]

For quite some time, my inability to read Japanese has made me feel sorta useless since I can't help with the commentary or the CRC...
But now, I found a chance to make up for it... a little.

I found this in the archives of a German anime magazine called "FUNime" - the link is cited as a source on the German Wikipedia, but since the article itself is on that magazine's official homepage, it's probably the real thing.
There is some guy with a Japanese-sounding name cited in the "we thank these and those ppl" section, that was probably the one who served as interpreter... The version text I found is in German, so I'll be translating it into English for the sake of this comunity. Not all of it is EVA related, but I'll be translating it all in case anyone is interested in the rest.
The original is here but there's sadly no version of Tsurumaki-san's exact words.
This is pretty old (It says March 2002) and was made on that year's Connichi (largest German anime convention) so nothing Rebuild related, tough I think that some passages may be interesting for the interpretation of Rebuild...
Here it is. Bold text is the interviever, normal text is Tsurumaki, and green italics are my occasional comments.

SPOILER: Show

How did you get your job?
I've always been an anime-fan, just like you guys. I always liked to watch what the different studios would throw onto the market. One Day, I decided that I would also like to participate in the creation of a series.

*GASP* He's one of us!

What does a "key animator" actually do? How would you discribe that sort of work?
Usually, a single episode of a series requires about 3000 single pictures. Key Animations are pictures that are needed to draw the steps in-between and are meant as an orientation for the illustrators. There are about 300 to 500 Key-Animation-Pictures per episode.

How did you start working at studio Gainax?
I didn't work at Gainax from the beginning, but started at a small enterprise which specialized only in Key Animation. In the five years I worked for this studio, I always observed what Gainax was doing. My reason for taking further interest in Gainax was "Gunbuster". After "Gunbuster", they were beginning the production of "Nadia" and looking for employees. Since they were making a television series, they needed more people, and I was introduced to them. In the end, I decided to leave my old studio and to stark working at Gainax.

Isn't there a huge difference between working on shows like "Oh! My Goddess" (As Key Animator) and "Neon Genesis Evangelion" (main storyborading/directing)? Aren't those two completely different kinds of work?
Of course the different sorts of works are clearly separeted and very diverse in such productions. However, you can only work as a director (storyboard artist, Key animatot etc.) if you also have experience with the other jobs and know what these people are doing. I would say that it is the focus of my work that changes.

What is your usual day at work like?
The production of anime is very hard, time-comsuming work. There are times where there are more things to do, and times where there are less. During the production of Evangelion, I was only able to sleep six hours a night and spent the rest of the time working. I slept at the studio and only went home very rarely. Evangelion was an extreme case, I normally work twelve hours a day.

Whoa...! This puts the bridge bunnies' remark from episode 13 about how they're lucky to still have a home and not being forced to sleep at headquarters into a very different light... No wonder half the cast of EVA is made up of workaholics...

Did you ever visit a convention in Germany or Europe before?
I've been to lots of conventions in America. This is the first time I'm in Germany/Europe.

Which explains the obscurity of this thing here...

Does it surprise you that Evangelion, Nadia and OMG are considered "classics" in Germany? Do you occassionally hear of the reactions from Germany in Japan?
I know that anime is very popular in America. I wasn't aware that this also applies to Europe by now. There are almost no informations or feedback about fans in Europe. We get a lot more information from America.

Lol, we're finally being noticed XD I guess now they know that Europe also loves EVA! It's sorta weird, considering how EVA and Nadia are filled to the brim with Europeans... Asuka, Keel (German), Mari (British), Jean, Marie (French), Grandis... (Spanish)

How come that one Episode of Kare Kano was not produced with drawnings, but with "paper figurines"? Wasn't that very laborious?

This is something only Gainax could do, since it's very unusual to produce an episode in such a different fashion. At Gainax, we have people who like live action movies, Science Fiction and special effects, as well as others whi simply want to produce ordinary anime. Another group likes to mix different stylistic elements, which was very apparent in Kare Kano. Hideaki Anno already used to produce "amateur animes" with special effects before he started working at Gainax.

I KNEW Anno's name would be mentioned. Did anyone else know he was going to be mentioned? WTF Paper Figurines? This has his handwriting all over it... Well, it's nice to know that episodes 25 and 26 apparently paved the way for lots of alternative/modern arts, I think EoE is a nice example of such "mixed stylistic elements".

Ikari Gendo is a very controversial character. How do you see the role of Ikari Gendo in Evangelion?
Ikari Gendo is not exactly popular in Japan. Many think that he is too stern with Shinji and that he generally exudes the aura of a hard, traditional, strict father. Gendo was meant to be a strong father who should have a positive influence on Shinji so that he could grow to be more confident and adult-like. Many modern fathers in Japan are "mollycoddled" which was another reason to make Ikari Gendo into a strong father.

Wow. It's creepy. Just a few days ago, before I found this thing, I was arguing in the "Lillies for Yui" thread that the interpretation of the Shinji/Gendo relationship was too one-dimensional and how you don't make an asshole villain into your almost-self portrait.... mostly inspired by Rebuild and the advice scene. Rebuild has made me look at the old series again and find so many things. One could dispute the source, but... It fits so well with Anno's "Todays's ppl lack proper adult role models and don't know how to grow up" (The latter part of that sentence latter found its way into ReShinji's mouth... ) That "thank you, my father" in episode 26 has never really stopped bugging me... Episode 16 (or was it 20?) also implies that Gendo was the first person to say "You must not run away" to Shinji... I was right when I considered him an Anti hero! With emphasis on"Anti", but stil... Yeah, I love being right!
Also, it's interestingw he is comonly percieved in Japan...

What meaning does the cross symbol hold in Evangelion?
We didn't think that using this Christian symbol would lead to problems outside of Japan. In Japan, there were none. It's meant to make the series look more exotic and mysterious, there isn't any particular religious aspect to it. We thought that the mixture of science and religion would make the series more interesting.

...and hence "Metaphysical biology" was invented XD Nothing significantly new here, I guess.

Are you or other Gainax employees fans of classical music? (Which is used very prominently in Evangelion)
I don't like it that much, but other Gainax employees, expecially Hideaki Anno, do.

And now, here comes the obligatory question:


Who killed Kaji? What's your version of it?
This is a question that many Japanese fans also wonder about. Kaji wanted to investigate a deeper part of NERV (SEELE) and learn of its secrets. He was tricked by one of his informants and then killed. It wasn't Misato or Ritsuko.

This is also nothing all that new. If it was an "informant", it may habe been the lady with the pets, tough she appears to have been a Government person rather than a SEELE goon... forget the cat lady. It were probably the same guys who made him kidnap Fuyutsuki.

Why was FLCL produced?
Gainax needed to work on something new after Evangelion, but Hideaki Anno needed a little rest, so I came up with the idea for FLCL.

Where does the title for FLCL come from?
There is a Japanese rock group which has an album called "Fool Cool". I thought that title would be suited for an anime. (That later became "Furi Kuri" > FLCL) That was also kept in the last OVA episode where Mamimi wins the photo competetion.

Is the scooter in front of the Gainax shop really the vehicle from the FLCL ending?
Yes, it's the Vespa from the ending, and it's mine. Alas, it cannot fly.

Why are the male protagonists in Gainax-animes often "whimps"?
There are animes like Dragonball where the protagonists keep getting stronger and stronger, but we at Gainaxt tend to base the protagonists on Otakus, and that's why we can't make a story where the characters get stronger and stronger.

I really hope the interviewer stopped calling Shinji & co whimps after he/she saw 2.X.

Were you involved with Ebichu?
No, I wasn't.

What do you think of Anime-Musicvideos that are often made by fans?
I own a small broadcast station in Japan and I really like music videos. I don't have any problems with such videos - FLCL is already pretty close to a music clip, anyway.

Do you know the Fan-Video "Kodomo no EVA"? There are rumors that Gainax employees were involved with it.
No, these were real Otakus, not Gainax employees. (grins)

What project are you working on right now?
Until recently, we always needed about two years for each series. This has changed now as we will presenting four new projects in both this year and the next one. Our highest creed at Gainax is to keep everything as mysterious as possible, so I can't tell you anything about those.

So? Let me hear your thoughts on this.^^

[Sailor Star Dust]

You might want to change "sex hours a week" to "six hours a week". XD

Besides that, very interesting Interview. Thanks a lot for pointing it out to us! :)

[Kendrix]

You might want to change "sex hours a week" to "six hours a week". XD

Besides that, very interesting Interview. Thanks a lot for pointing it out to us! :)

Oh, Typo of doom XD I'll fix it immediately. I'm glad you like it^^

[C.A.P.]

Thanks Ken for this. This interview should put the theories to rest that Ganiax didn't want Anno to work on FLCL.

(and you've never seen Kare Kano? You should. Episode 19 was a really weird episode for a show like that though; it has the markings of amateur artists written all throughout the thing if you saw it. Lots of still shots, lots of dialogue for the first few minutes, all the cels in that one were done with color pencils rather than traditional methods. Yeah, I'm still wondering why Anno and the guys decided to go with it)

[Kendrix]

Thanks Ken for this. This interview should put the theories to rest that Ganiax didn't want Anno to work on FLCL.

(and you've never seen Kare Kano? You should. Episode 19 was a really weird episode for a show like that though; it has the markings of amateur artists written all throughout the thing if you saw it. Lots of still shots, lots of dialogue for the first few minutes, all the cels in that one were done with color pencils rather than traditional methods. Yeah, I'm still wondering why Anno and the guys decided to go with it)

...Modern Art?
Maybe I should watch it one Day if I find the time.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Nice little interview, although nothing revelational. And yeah, every NGE/Anno fan should watch Kare Kano. It's probably the best thing he's done outside of Evangelion, and might have been just as good were it not for the bungled ending.

[Xard]

Nice little interview, although nothing revelational. And yeah, every NGE/Anno fan should watch Kare Kano. It's probably the best thing he's done outside of Evangelion, and might have been just as good were it not for the bungled ending.

I place Gunbuster and Shiki Jitsu above it but yeah, Kare Kano is for its run under Anno (1-18) damn great series with some episodes of pure perfection (ep 16 > everything else)

[1731298478]

Nice find! Interesting comment about Gendo.

[Kendrix]

Yeah, that comment is pretty much the "juicy bit"
It would surely explain his more sympathetic portayal during the Rebuild!Bardiel incident - he was actually meant to be "sorta right" from the beginning, but no one got it.

When I first watched the series, this was the point where I tought. "Oh, how interesting. A villain that is hinted to have a nice side, but turns out to be really a bastard for a change"
The Rebuild version (maybe because I watched EoE first) left me with equal desires to give both Ikaris a hug.

There is that scene (in both versions) where Fuyu orders the synch ration to be cut down which would reduce the Danger for Shinji, but also his battle eficiency. Gendo disagrees, and instead tries to persuade Shinji to go and fight.
He did not WANT to use an untested, instable system he can't control properly. He prefered to let Shinji do it. Also, this is something of a display of trust, isn't it?
He trusts Shinji to destroy the thing that has effortlessly flattened Asuka and Rei (And I don't think he overestimated Shinji's combat abilities - the kid would've taken out Zeruel on his own with little more than his bare hands (No wait, just one of them) if he'd had a cable. He's one hell of a fighter, it's just that the enemies are more often than not cheating bastards... In short, he expects Shinji to use teh awesomeness Shinji doesn't know he has, which would probably have resulting in Shinji noticing that he's awesome.)
The problem is that while Gendo is a rational, pragmatic person, who therefore uses rational arguments ("If you don't fight back, you'll die!") Shinji is more the emotional type, he won't listen to rational arguments in a situation that is pretty much his personal worst nightmare.
When Shinji refuses to budge, Gendo orders the Dummyplug activated.
In the old anime, he gets up from his seat for emphasis (He doesn't do that often, mind you) and acts somewhat more trenchant than you'd expect of him (He's often hash, but mostly keeps a certain cool)
His dialogue sounds pretty disregarding, but he's acting unusually emotional. There might be a trace of "Hurry the fuck up, my baby is being strangled!" mixed in there...


Also, I don't know if it's episode 16 or 20 (One of the few instances that tell us of Shinji's vague backstory - Have you ever noticed how mysterious they keep it? Yes, his mommy died, he was abandoned and then stayed with his teacher, but what's with that "three years ago" incident? What's with all these vague lines relating to the circumstances of the abandonment?) but there's a scene that hints that Gendo was the first one to tell Shinji that he "mustn't run away".
If I remember correctly, the script explicitly states it's a flashback.

I've always thought that their relationship was always sorta underanalyzed. It rarely moves beyond "this is the guy who screwed Shinji up and the one Shinji shouldn't be like" when they slowly build up something of a bond over the course of the series (defining moments being episode 11 ("He prepared everything because he knew you would come"), ep 12 ("Well done, Shinji"), ep 15 (The grayevard scene, they actually talk about each other's feelings here, if only just a bit) the comes ep 18 - Gendo saves Shinji's ass, but Shinji's pissed about what happened to Touji and goes on rampage. The end. Whatever they build up between each other, it's completely shattered now. For Shinji, this is the beginning of the end. He's just plain depressed and becomes even more so once his little world crumbles away. Gendo is probably even more convinced that ppl can never understand each other, and focuses even more on his masterplan than he did before. "Junior, I'll explain everything to you once we're both part of a big lump of orange goo and we both have your mommy back"))

[gwern]

Nifty! I had never heard of this interview before. As other said, nothing earth-shattering but still educational. (Also, translation could use a little copyediting.)

What is your usual day at work like?
The production of anime is very hard, time-consuming work. There are times where there are more things to do, and times where there are less. During the production of Evangelion, I was only able to sleep six hours a night and spent the rest of the time working. I slept at the studio and only went home very rarely. Evangelion was an extreme case, I normally work twelve hours a day.

Only 12 hours a day? Tsurumaki, you slacker, how can I ever have any respect for you again?

Does it surprise you that Evangelion, Nadia and OMG are considered "classics" in Germany? Do you occasionally hear of the reactions from Germany in Japan?
I know that anime is very popular in America. I wasn't aware that this also applies to Europe by now. There is almost no information or feedback about fans in Europe. We get a lot more information from America.

One can almost hear the RCB Tsurumaki going 'oh noes the Eva sickness is even more widespread than we feared!'

Ikari Gendo is a very controversial character. How do you see the role of Ikari Gendo in Evangelion?
Ikari Gendo is not exactly popular in Japan. Many think that he is too stern with Shinji and that he generally exudes the aura of a hard, traditional, strict father. Gendo was meant to be a strong father who should have a positive influence on Shinji so that he could grow to be more confident and adult-like. Many modern fathers in Japan are "mollycoddled" which was another reason to make Ikari Gendo into a strong father.

That's what he was meant to be? Wow, way to fail at that. Hopefully Tsurumaki is referring to some earlier version of Gendo - that's at least not inconsistent with the Proposal's description http://wiki.evageeks.org/Resources:Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_Proposal_%28Translation%29#Page_22_.28Gendo.29

What meaning does the cross symbol hold in Evangelion?
We didn't think that using this Christian symbol would lead to problems outside of Japan. In Japan, there were none. It's meant to make the series look more exotic and mysterious, there isn't any particular religious aspect to it. We thought that the mixture of science and religion would make the series more interesting.

Pretty much what he said the other times. Still, re-confirmation is always useful.

Who killed Kaji? What's your version of it?
This is a question that many Japanese fans also wonder about. Kaji wanted to investigate a deeper part of NERV (SEELE) and learn of its secrets. He was tricked by one of his informants and then killed. It wasn't Misato or Ritsuko.

Between the DC edits, the Platinum commentary, and now this, I'm starting to get the impression that Gainax was a tad annoyed that so many fans thought it was Misato or Ritsuko who killed Kaji...

Is the scooter in front of the Gainax shop really the vehicle from the FLCL ending?
Yes, it's the Vespa from the ending, and it's mine. Alas, it cannot fly.

Awesome.

What do you think of Anime Music Videos that are often made by fans?
I own a small broadcast station in Japan and I really like music videos. I don't have any problems with such videos - FLCL is already pretty close to a music clip, anyway.

He owns a what?

Do you know the Fan-Video "Kodomo no EVA"? There are rumors that Gainax employees were involved with it.
No, these were real Otakus, not Gainax employees. (grins)

Example of rumors: http://evabeast.coolfreepages.com/nge/faq.php#5a

Evamonkey used to have a copy of "Kodomo no EVA" on http://www.evamonkey.com/omake_archive_eastereggs.php , but the link is dead. (Bad Evamonkey! I even gave you a list of all dead links!)

Found a crappy Youtube copy at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rqS9Psi4xM - I watched Kodomo no Jikan at one point, so it was fairly funny to me.

[Kendrix]

That's what he was meant to be? Wow, way to fail at that. Hopefully Tsurumaki is referring to some earlier version of Gendo - that's at least not inconsistent with the Proposal's description

Well, not ONLY that, but why on earth should he be talking about the proposal of all sudden? I mean, he has no reason to assume that the ppl who're going to read this even know of the proposal/would think of it without explicit mention. Also, isn't the proposal here closer to Gendo's "common perception"?
I always said the Gendo/Shinji relationship is underanalized.
He's meant to be the "negative future version", the "other side of the same coin", but not just that.
That bit is actually very consistent with Gendo's portrayal in Rebuild, where he's treated as being right as far as the Bardiel incident is concerned... Note that Rebuild has a hsbit of "accentuating" stuff that used to be in old NGE but was mostly missed - that room Rei was seen in in ep 6 was meant to be Shinji's hospital room, the arms splitting apart stuff,...

One version of the script was even going to have (a rather Misato-like, early version of) Mari tell Shinji that "The Commander did this to ptotect everyone and you won't even do that!"
After the Bardiel incident, all we ever see him do is plotting, whereras he had these little moments before - now that I've read this part of the proposal, I suspect that this was meant to be some sort of descent - he's probably was badly hit as the rest of the cast as stuff goes downhill, but he reacts with burying himself into his work even more than before...
Note that EoTV ends with "Thank you, my father"...
I'm not denying that Gendo never gave a damn about anyone except Yui, Shinji and Rei, and that caring about the latter two doesn't stop him from using them if "It's the only way to live", as he tends to justify his actions. He's very far on the Anti side of the Anti-hero scale, but if he was meant to be the uber villain without any single positive trait about him, what's the POINT of having Keel & co?

[Lucretius]

That bit is actually very consistent with Gendo's portrayal in Rebuild, where he's treated as being right as far as the Bardiel incident is concerned...

Lolwat. Gendo couldn't be more obviously written as the antagonist of Eva 2.0 if he said "exxcellent" in a breathy voice when Unit 03's entry plug was crushed. We're supposed to dislike Gendo as much as Shinji does; agreeing to come to Rei's party is the only marginally sympathetic act he performs in the entire movie.

Note that Rebuild has a hsbit of "accentuating" stuff that used to be in old NGE but was mostly missed

Mari was in many of the crowd scenes in NGE if you look closely.

[Kendrix]

Lolwat. Gendo couldn't be more obviously written as the antagonist of Eva 2.0 if he said "exxcellent" in a breathy voice when Unit 03's entry plug was crushed. We're supposed to dislike Gendo as much as Shinji does; agreeing to come to Rei's party is the only marginally sympathetic act he performs in the entire movie.


Mari was in many of the crowd scenes in NGE if you look closely.

No need to get snarky. you know I mean something else.

Also, it seems to me that the Movie clearly portrays Shinji as being understandably pissed, but ultimately in the wrong - they have him stomp on the pyramid like a pissed toddler, have him tell Gendo to "Go and leave someone important, too", which, as we all know, is highly ironic - even the techies as disturbed as they might've been by the brutality of the dummyplug, agree that Shinji should be glad to have had his ass saved, they have Misato tell him that Rei would've wanted him and Gendo to get along...

Also, have you seen this Documentary with Anno and those kids? I think it was there where he said that today's people act like bratty kids and don't know how to grow up - Shinji gets that line, that makes it pretty clear that he's the one who's supposed to learn a lesson here - and they have Gendo try to honestly give him advice, which puts him at least into grey territory, even if he fails... or did he?
It seems to me that while Shinji still has a lot to learn, he has at least come to realize that you can't realize your goals without hard work and sacrifice... even if it entails his freakin' skin tearing off...

As for old!NGE, note that Shinji IS able to "pull the trigger" by ep 24 - too bad it doesn't help him anymore because everything went down the drain...
But thing did take a turn for the tragic there, we still have to see where Rebuild will go in that respect...

[Lucretius]

"Go and leave someone important, too", which, as we all know, is highly ironic

Because Asuka's life is completely irrelevant next to Yui's, and Shinji is somehow supposed to know that Gendo was a devoted husband. And as Shinji himself says, there's no way to know how an "adult" should behave if you've got Gendo Ikari for a father.

But really, your post just goes how to show how thematically muddled 2.0 is. A family tea party is ultimately given more narrative weight than the blood on Shinji's hands. I mean really, the fact that Rei wanted Shinji and Gendo to be happy together is supposed to be a reasonable argument for Shinji to return to Nerv?

[Ornette]

TOPIC

[SaltyJoe]

Maybe Tsurumaki just didn't elaborate enough. Maybe Gendo was supposed to play such a role in Shinji's character development early on, after which the younger Ikari gradually grows away from his influence, while it's simultaneously revealed (mostly to the audience, not to Shinji) that Gendo is basically an emo kid with a beard.

That's about the only way i can take that comment seriously.

[Bagheera]

Maybe Tsurumaki just didn't elaborate enough. Maybe Gendo was supposed to play such a role in Shinji's character development early on, after which the younger Ikari gradually grows away from his influence, while it's simultaneously revealed (mostly to the audience, not to Shinji) that Gendo is basically an emo kid with a beard.

That's about the only way i can take that comment seriously.

That makes sense. Let's not forget that Gendo sent Shinji away because he was afraid to deal with him -- that's hardly the work of a strong father.

And Kendrix, I've noted this before but NGE and Rebuild are two different stories. Arguments based on the events and portrayals of Rebuild are not relevant to discussions of NGE (barring staff commentary to the contrary, naturally).

[Sailor Star Dust]

Arguments based on the events and portrayals of Rebuild are not relevant to discussions of NGE (barring staff commentary to the contrary, naturally).

I've mentioned this before. While comparisons between the two will happen, they are ultimately separate works and character motivations/emotions/actions will NOT be 1:1, that's why you can't compare them 100%.

Perhaps Gendo being a "strong father" is a context issue: He's strong in the sense of being (usually) calm, in charge, in command, but that's all with Nerv (where he does order around Shinji and the others). Of course, emotionally-speaking he's too afraid of Shinji to care for the kid as a proper father, for various reasons. Episode 21(') sort of implied had Yui not "died", Gendo would have been a decent father to Shinji. (Just look at Gendo's honest smile when he tells Fuyutsuki that Yui and Gendo have a son!)

[Kendrix]

While Rebuild is a different continuity, it IS made by the same people, partially as a reaction to the reaction to EVA, so it IS legitimate to quote it to guess at the maker's intentions, expecially with it fits with statement like these.

I would agree with SSD, tough, that this isn't to be read as "strong father" as but as "father who is also strong", as in consequent, determined, dominant, serious, and most importantly, naivety-shattering as an individual, not necessarily in respect to the parenting bit.
This statement is obviously highlighthing the positive aspects of Gendo because, duh, you don't have to tell ppl about the negative ones, anyone who's seen the series can see those.

[Bagheera]

While Rebuild is a different continuity, it IS made by the same people, partially as a reaction to the reaction to EVA, so it IS legitimate to quote it to guess at the maker's intentions, expecially with it fits with statement like these.

It really isn't, though. Again, unless they're specific about it you don't know whether they're clarifying their original intent or doing something totally different (and you can't assume the former unless the actual show backs you up on the matter). This is particularly true when you're discussing an interview that takes place years before Rebuild even went into production.

I would agree with SSD, tough, that this isn't to be read as "strong father" as but as "father who is also strong", as in consequent, determined, dominant, serious, and most importantly, naivety-shattering as an individual, not necessarily in respect to the parenting bit.
This statement is obviously highlighthing the positive aspects of Gendo because, duh, you don't have to tell ppl about the negative ones, anyone who's seen the series can see those.

I don't think that's it. The quote suggests that Gendo was indeed meant to be a strong father, but nothing in the show really backs that up; even if the youth of today are mollycoddled, as he suggests, the answer to that isn't to ignore your children, hand them off to underlings, and brutalize them on the battlefield. If Gendo were strict the quote would make sense, but he isn't. He's just (apparently) completely apathetic.

(oddly, the quote makes much more sense in the context of Rei, as he does seem to be both a father and fairly strict with her; hence, "strong father". But Shinji? No way.)

I think Gwern and SaltyJoe might have the right of it; Characters often move away from their initial design concepts when they're brought to life, and the comment makes sense in that context.