Shin(ji)ko - WHY?

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Postby Synapsid » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:31 am

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:Oh wow, I didn't see all that academic stuff! Thanks, Synapsy-chan. ^_____^
Err, I know you found the link to the Genji analysis, but were you able to find the other links? They were kind of threaded thought the last dozen or so pages so it might have kind of been inconvenient to have had to run a scavenger hunt for them them.
The best sacrifice out of the ones you just posted is the third image, where Shin-chan's got a little red hair clip. I like that picture because such a scene is quite believable, and it is obvious that he's a "boy" and doesn't fit into everything properly.
I like that idea, you know, the image really does sound all that much better when someone takes the time to fit it all into context, and what 's known about the characters. :think: Somehow I could almost that image happening during Ep.24 or the JuneScripts: he's normally much to conscious of what others want or expect from him to do something like that, but by that point he really doesn't seem to care about what most of the others think, apart from Kaworu. Also since it's a boy he's after, that might affect how he wants to be seen by them.

I’ve always found that gender/sex “mismatch” you mentioned to be one of the most interesting traits the EVA characters, and Shinji in particular have. And I guess circles seem happy enough to use it, regardless of who he's being shipped with.
Actualy it seems that Shinji willingly dressing up and then getting caught by another character is a constant theme (that's how the entire TrapShinji series NJS did started, and it seems to be there with the most recent Doujinshi...I'm not totaly sure how he managed to steal Mari's uniform when she wasn't looking). Trap Shinji also seems to have become so mainstream in the Japanese fandom that ISIK dropped that in it's recent ShounenAce edition (2ch was subsequently full of posts from guys who said they want YandereTrapji to be their waifu), so it's no longer something that's limited to fujoshi. Although ISIK didn't do stuff that might have made their audience uncomfortable and had Asuka be the one to dress him up, rather than Shinji deciding that he wants to present himself in a certain way.
He actualy stole her clothes and stuffed her bra here.[URL=http://img188.imageshack.us/i/11235537p21.jpg/]Image[/URL] Also artists tend to give trapShinji some sort of hair clip, or bow, regardless of who he's with.[URL=http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd325/Synapsidia/EVA/?action=view&current=xxy11.jpg]Image[/URL]
View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote: Rei involves her being submissive, while the Asuka stuff either paints her as something to be conquered or the dominant partner. I think that certainly says something about how some view those two characters...
I hope it's okay to go on a tangent over something in another thread. The interesting thing about that is, that Asuka, or Oskar I guess, in Fujoshi circles tends to be the cat a surprisingly large amount of the time; that's not to say that he won't top, but it really isn't as fixed as it might seem. Given Asuka's character there are going to be ambiguous traits, and that, along with the vulnerable element in the character are something they like to play on. Of course he's going to be aggressive, and possibly violent towards the others, and try to project an image of strength, but that's really more of an extension of the vulnerability and identity issues mentioned before. So Rei(usualy male), or even Shinji(regardless of gender), might end up being the ones to suport him.
[URL=http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd325/Synapsidia/EVA/?action=view&current=102873571.jpg]Image[/URL][URL=http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd325/Synapsidia/EVA/?action=view&current=Asuka.jpg]Image[/URL][URL=http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd325/Synapsidia/EVA/?action=view&current=etyarog0911090061.png]Image[/URL][URL=http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd325/Synapsidia/EVA/?action=view&current=12153739084361.gif]Image[/URL][URL=http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd325/Synapsidia/EVA/?action=view&current=20100606a1.jpg]Image[/URL]
Last edited by Synapsid on Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:58 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:While I don't agree with SSAS's assessment that Shinji was imitating Gendo (notice that he's actually smiling in that position) and I can see that you also disagree with him, that's absolutely NO excuse for calling him an idiot. Meaningless flaming has no place on this forum.

Well I even have an explination for the smiling there, while he may be trying to imitate gendo, he is himself so by smiling he is giving the mannerism his personal touch.
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Postby Meghan » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:50 am

I don't approve of it nor do I have anything against the common practice of gender-bending. It happens and the only thing we can do is complain or ignore it. I chose the latter of the two evils.

I personally, love effeminate men; non-provoking, soft-spoken, empathetic, easily persuaded and "in touch with their feelings" is the way I would summarize the demographic (Shinji included). These qualities are wonderful to have in a male companion so I don't understand why so many people hate on them?

Despite his emotional shortcomings Shinji is wonderfully domesticated. He cleans house, washes dishes, goes shopping and cooks and prepares meals. If Shinji could learn to love himself, enough so to love another completely, he would be the best of marriage material.
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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:35 pm

View Original PostMeghan wrote:I don't approve of it nor do I have anything against the common practice of gender-bending. It happens and the only thing we can do is complain or ignore it. I chose the latter of the two evils.

I personally, love effeminate men; non-provoking, soft-spoken, empathetic, easily persuaded and "in touch with their feelings" is the way I would summarize the demographic (Shinji included). These qualities are wonderful to have in a male companion so I don't understand why so many people hate on them?

Despite his emotional shortcomings Shinji is wonderfully domesticated. He cleans house, washes dishes, goes shopping and cooks and prepares meals. If Shinji could learn to love himself, enough so to love another completely, he would be the best of marriage material.

You have just been awarded the common sense award. You are among the only people posting in this thread with complete common sense.
(I wish I could say the same for myself.)

This is the point I have been getting to all this time so I will use this as the founndation point for this explination of my argument.

America is considered to be a masculine culture, along with Japan; which is why whenever we see effeminate men like Shinji portrayed, most people seem to thing he has to be gay because of that, however in the case of many of them, Shinji included, this is far from the truth. Shinji is just a teenager coming to terms with himself, and would most likely become a very effeminate BUT straight man. He isn't gay; though he is possibly bi curious, he isn't a crossdresser, and the attempts to portray him as a crossdresser, or a woman is just one of the the scramble manuvers pre-programmed into most people raised in a masculine culture in order to preserve their sense of being. As is the inverse with some SxA shippers who them portray him as becoming the complete macho-man just because he is with Asuka. The reality is he is straight, and while he woulld have ended up with Asuka, he would still be the same wimp, a little more masculine, but still a little wimp. Asuka however would come to embrace it because by them she will have realized she wants a wimp to boss around as long as he is a loving wimp.
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Postby Teague » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:34 pm

Well, I'll agree that a portion of Shinji-ko is knee-jerk rection to dissassociate the character from masculinity, but I think some of it also comes from the opposite direction; with some projecting greater heteroatypicality upon the character to validate themselves, or to heighten empathy with the character (i.e "similar in some ways, therefore must be similar in all ways"), there's also the crowd in it for Perverse Sexual Lust (I.e "Trap Shinji is hot"), there are a few trolls (i.e look at how worked up these people get when we portray their beloved character as genderqueer), and finally there's the folks who find gender theory interesting and like to see how altering the perception of a cultural icon implicates other aspects of the story (I.E "if you tilt your head and aquint, doesn't it seem like Eva is a satire of gender roles and expectations?")

Theres also the bystanders who are in it for the intriguing discourse throughout the range of the aforementioned, but we don't contribute to the matter much.
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Postby oOoOoOo » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:18 am

Teague sums up the spectrum nicely. People make fanart for so many reasons.

I don't get why Meghan and supershinjiasukashipper need to get all excited. You'll find crossdressing fanart for just about every anime character ever conceived, if you look in the right place. Nobody would blink twice if this was a giant thread about Asuka dressing in "male" outfits like overalls and business suits and military uniforms. Nobody would be all "Why are you being so mean to Assuuuukkaaa~!!!!"

Do I have to school y'all in some queer studies? I've already played with feminism this week.
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Postby Sachi » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:26 am

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:Do I have to school y'all in some queer studies? I've already played with feminism this week.

Please. I could use the lulz.
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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:44 am

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:Do I have to school y'all in some queer studies?


Yes.
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Postby Meghan » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:36 am

Grabs a pen and sheet of paper from ThePRPD.
I am SO ready for this!
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Postby Synapsid » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:50 pm

View Original Postsupershinjiasukashipper wrote:America is considered to be a masculine culture, along with Japan; which is why whenever we see effeminate men like Shinji portrayed, most people seem to thing he has to be gay because of that, however in the case of many of them, Shinji included, this is far from the truth. Shinji is just a teenager coming to terms with himself, and would most likely become a very effeminate BUT straight man. He isn't gay; though he is possibly bi curious, he isn't a crossdresser, and the attempts to portray him as a crossdresser, or a woman is just one of the the scramble manuvers pre-programmed into most people raised in a masculine culture in order to preserve their sense of being... The reality is he is straight...
View Original PostIn the Gender roles discussion thread wrote:...Shinji's journey to manhood.
I'm sorry, I know I might seem rude with this, but a statement like that could only come from people who have never had to deal with the issues they preach about.
People do seem to have a kneejerk reaction against stuff that isn’t normal as far as gender or sexuality is concerned, but I’ve never heard of the default reaction people have, when running into something they uncomfortably identify with, being to embrace the socially unacceptable. Society as an aggregate does generalize with anyone who’s different in some way, and labeling stuff into discrete categories very much is a part of that. Something that doesn’t clearly fall into set roles, male or female and even straight or gay in a contemporary context for example, does cause an uncomfortable reaction with others, but the reaction others have is to force things back to what it “should be", if something is outside of its role people don’t kneejerk into embracing that.

As far as this case goes I’ve never heard of our society pushing/encouraging boys who look or act what would be considered femmenine into being traps. If anything a boy seeming inherently feminine , doesn’t make others try to get past the dissonance by trying to make him a trap or girl, the default is really just to scrutinize for anything that doesn’t seem to conform what’s heteronormative all the more, and pounce against anything that does stand out.
So no, the scramble maneuvers others have to what doesn’t fit in is to just smash it in place. It’s not too different on the net either: many people seem to have some sort of inherent discomfort towards associating with a protagonist that isn’t heterosexual or gender normative, and the default reaction, unless if it’s so blatantly apparent that it can’t be ignored, would just be to assume that the characters are perfectly straight, and fit neatly into their societal gender. Yes being non-heterosexual has nothing to do with your gender identity, but it’s also quite possible to be atypical in both, and there’s absolutely nothing stereotypic, or wrong with a character realistically depicting both. What doesn’t seem right is to assume that it’s necessary and proper that a character has to turn out just like how he “should” socially, and to pretend that there’s absolutely nothing alt about said character, even if it’s his creator makes rather apparent that he isn’t normal in those respects.

Also I’m not really sure if you got all the culture stuff: a traditionalist patriarchal culture normally isn’t going to be very fond of individuals who don’t fit and isn’t going to further that; also while Japan and America’s culture could both be called patriarichal their ideas of what “masculinity” is differs greatly. If we look at Japan’s historical standards for what would be considered to be a desirable in terms of looks and behavior a lot of it would seem feminine by our standards, there’s a good degree of overlap betwene both genders. Given what is associated with their archetype of a young hero, if we removed the queer elements Shinji has then he really would fit into the archetype of a bishounen too neatly. Also Despite the overlap in some respects, there very much still is the idea of roles specific to a gender, something that Touji and Kensuke do refer to (otoko rashii) and Shinji by acting like a moeblob around Kaworu, or just acting contrary to what would be expected in several points is rather explicitly acting contrary to that (even the dynamics betwene Asuka and Shinji aren't heteronormative); especially in its contemporary mecha environment which very much did play by the gender roles. So Anno by having made a character like that probably wasn’t trying to make just another pilot boy in his journey to “manhood”.

I’m sorry about going on a not very polite long reply, it really isn’t anything you did or anything personal against you Doggie-kun. But this isn’t the first time I’ve heard that narrative, and the whole thing just strikes me as a way guys who are uncomfortable with something that might not be het a have of shoving that thing into the closet while paying lipservice to the idea of tolerance. Not you of course, but the entire idea of arguing that looking at something nonheteronomative is somehow nonpc/discriminatory, while at the same time trying to sanitize anything that might seem queer away to produce a clean totally normative narrative strikes me as a sort of doublespeak, and it's something I feel that had to be adressed.
oOoOoOo wrote:... Nobody would blink twice if this was a giant thread about Asuka dressing in "male" outfits like overalls and business suits and military uniforms. Nobody would be all "Why are you being so mean to Assuuuukkaaa~!!!!"
Uhh, well hypotheticaly speaking, if Asuka had been canonicaly a boy then mabey stuff turning him into a trap or girl might have provoked stronger reactions. A boy in a dress just seems to provoke a stronger reaction from guys on the net than a girl wearing pants does... I wonder why :think:
I think I've heard the word, emasculation thrown around in the past
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Do I have to school y'all in some queer studies? I've already played with feminism this week.
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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:51 pm

+1 to Syanpsid.

The reality is he is straight...

One of the very few things I'll ever agree with you about but I don't share your perspective on it.
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Postby ran1 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:43 pm

SSAS wrote:America is considered to be a masculine culture, along with Japan;
which is why whenever we see effeminate men like Shinji portrayed, most people seem to thing he has to be gay because of that,


If the shoe fits...

however in the case of many of them, Shinji included, this is far from the truth. Shinji is just a teenager coming to terms with himself, and would most likely become a very effeminate BUT straight man.


Is there a reason Shinji couldn't come to terms with himself and realize that he's gay? Or bisexual?

he isn't a crossdresser,


Remember when he gets in Asuka's plugsuit... yeah...

and the attempts to portray him as a crossdresser, or a woman is just one of the the scramble manuvers pre-programmed into most people raised in a masculine culture in order to preserve their sense of being...


But he is a crossdresser. It's not some circlejerk academic reaction nor is it just the wailings of a fangirl. HE CROSS-DRESSES. Episode 8, bro. The definition of a crossdresser for a male is getting into clothing designed for a female, which Shinji does.

The reality is he is straight...


No. Kaworou and Shinji have gratitious buttsex right after the cut of Kaworou saying "I love you". That's the cinematic formula: "I love you" followed by cut and/or pan up inisuinating love making.
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Postby child of Lilith » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:20 pm

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:Do I have to school y'all in some queer studies? I've already played with feminism this week.


Now this is a class I’d be happy to attend.
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Postby Synapsid » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:31 am

I think it's worth mentioning that my last post really wasn't directed against SAshipper, just the arguments brought up in that post. Also the point he brought up about Sexuality=/=Genderidentity was valid, not that it means there's something incorect about both being non normative.
View Original Postran1 wrote:Remember when he gets in Asuka's plugsuit... yeah...
But he is a crossdresser. It's not some circlejerk academic reaction nor is it just the wailings of a fangirl. HE CROSS-DRESSES. Episode 8, bro. The definition of a crossdresser for a male is getting into clothing designed for a female, which Shinji does.
Don't forget the trapdancer suits from the ninth episode, the MeidoYui outfit from EVA2, the girlswimsuit from the ISIK game along with more trapdancer suits,a top page image Gainax used, the androgynous looking mahou shoujo kitty-mage outfit from the Young Ace anthology, and the trap band-girl outfit from the ISIK manga; also since Shinji's body really is that similar to Nadia's, Gainax does release plugirl type fanservice posters with him, given the chest protectors it's possible for someone who doesn't know about the characters to think it's a girl. Also, Shinjiquarium
It probably wouldn't be wrong to say that dressing like a girl or just looking like one is something of a recurring theme with him. Also since his main problem in both of the TV instances is that others are looking at him the motivations against it seem to be what others will think of him. Of course the reasons why he does it are because others ask him, but he goes along without any resistance; so
he'd probably have dressed if Kaworu, or anyone who's acknowledgement he wants asked him. Oh and internalisation aside, there's nothing to indicate that he actualy really does feel uncomfortable in girl's clothing... who knows, with his hipline female clothing might be physically more comfortable. :shinji_blush:
No. Kaworou and Shinji have gratitious buttsex right after the cut of Kaworou saying "I love you". That's the cinematic formula: "I love you" followed by cut and/or pan up insinuating love making.
You know, I wonder if EoEKaworu penetrating Ikari,who's blissing out, with the LoL might not count as that. The scripts came rather close to it too, although Kaworu never beds Shinji all of the kissing/protective boyfriend carrying his waifu to bed prerequisites are there (never mind the part about the waifu being the guy mecha fans are supposed to identify with). It's also kind of there in the Manga, although the carrying, and bed make out play rather diffrently...you know, EvilMangaKaworu/JuneShinji probably would result in something rather physical.
There probably is something to say about the fact that Shinji essentially does switch into "girl"-mode in intimate interactions, and that it's particularly noticeable in this case.
In that episodes context though, Shinji wouldn't have been crossdressing if he hypothetically dressed up, he'd just be presenting himself according to the gender he's expressing.
View Original Postchild of Lilith wrote:Now this is a class I’d be happy to attend.
So I take it there's a flood of students eager to sign up for this class?
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leave my innocent Shinjiko thread alone! Reichu Asuka would be the one going "SURPRISE BUTTSEKS, BAKA!!!!" while of course in appropriate dress and, *cough, gulp, snort*, with a certain strapped on accessory THE Hal E. Burton 9000

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Postby child of Lilith » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:52 pm

View Original PostSynapsid wrote:So I take it there's a flood of students eager to sign up for this class?

That certainly seems to be the case, Synapsid. You’d better take your seat before there all gone.
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Postby Dark doom » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:02 pm

My eye's are stinging after seeing thos images.

Why in the name of Darwin would someone want to sex swap Asuka and Shinji/ Kawouro and Rei? :vomit:
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Postby child of Lilith » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:21 pm

Because they can, Dark doom. What other reason do they need?
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:42 pm

View Original PostDark doom wrote:Why in the name of Darwin would someone want to sex swap Asuka and Shinji/ Kawouro and Rei? :vomit:
Because this

The secret of Evangelion is that they took super robot pilots and reversed their genders
if Rei was male, he'd be the awesomely silent/cool/calm guy.
When he rushes that angel with an N2 mine under his arm sacrificing his life ... that is the scene where MANLY TEARS flow for A MAN'S WAY OF LIFE AND DEATH.
Asuka, if a man, would be an awesomely HOT BLOODED pilot. And pervy with his advances on Shinji, but a little tsundere.
And Shinji, as a weak little girl, as a girl, puts it into context. You'd be fapping furiously to Shinjiko every night because of her shy demeanour
And with girl Kaworu, Shinji x Kaworu would be amazingly hot.
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Postby child of Lilith » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:56 pm

Epic copy paste, Mr. Tines!
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Postby ran1 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:06 pm

View Original PostDark doom wrote: Why in the name of Darwin would someone want to sex swap Asuka and Shinji/ Kawouro and Rei? :vomit:


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