Evangelion: Pretentiously deep?

[Opteron-O3]

I had a totally different conclusion that nobody really agreed on lol :roll:

[n00dle]

Um...how could it be a plot hole? First off, they would have caught it before it got in the final version of the episode, secondly, even if it was a mistake, they would have fixed it for the DC version.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I don't really have the energy/time to reread the entire 18 pages on the 24' plothole thread. But this caught my eye. I took a quick re-listen to the scene and he says:

Kaworu: Chigau! Kore wa... Lilith?

Quite literally he is saying, "Wrong! This is... Lilith?" I'm not sure about who came up with the "it's different" part, but I think it may be leading people down the wrong path. I'm not trying to argue anything either way for or against the 24' plothole,* but I hope people are not making conclusions on something that seems to be an incorrect translation. Would this warrant a reinvestigation of whatever was decided upon in the 24' plothole thread? Or maybe the "it's different" part comes from the original script?

*For the record, I do think it was just a plothole, a big goof, but I want people to reach their own conclusions.

Fairly early in the thread, one of the members on here had someone, who wasn't familiar with NGE but knew Japanese well, watch that scene and give an opinion. The poster very specifically asked him what the "Chigau!" part was in reference to. The response was (paraphrased): "That is really not made clear. It could be either from the giant in front of him, or the previous line."

The idea that this was a tremendous goof doesn't make sense. They went through a lot of work doing the DC and putting in new material to expand ideas so that things made MORE sense - not less. The idea that SOMEONE didn't catch that is just practically impossible (I'd say nearly the same thing about the 15 monoliths at the lake).

Even by YOUR translation, it's not made clear if the "Wrong!" he's referring to is:

A) Him mistaking Lilith on the cross for Adam.
B) Humanity NOT having to be destroyed.

The line right before that is: "Must all who were born from Adam return to Adam, even at the cost of destroying humanity?"

So why can't "Wrong!" be in reference to THAT?

For further proof, the line about "So THAT'S what this is about, Lilim" very much seems to imply that he just *realized* something he didn't before: Likely about Seele's plans and reasons for sending him there. What else would he be talking about?

[Opteron-O3]

He realized what Seele had in mind for the Lilim by seeing Lilith there. But why he thinks the lilim aren't the ones that deserves to die still gets me... I need to rewatch it again...

[Eva Yojimbo]

But why he thinks the lilim aren't the ones that deserves to die still gets me... I need to rewatch it again...

His relationship with Shinji made him realize how weak and fragile Lilim were. He ended up 'loving' them because they were so weak. I might suggest that Kaworu/Adam even pitied them because of their weakness. He likely decided that the Lilim needed the Earth more than he and the Angels did. In the 24' thread I even suggested that Kaworu was waiting for Shinji when he took Ni down to TD so he could make up his mind on the way.

Reichu's new theory actually proposes that during 3I GNK passes his kids onto to Sho. While this may sound strange, it actually makes a lot of sense if you review ep. 24' and the scene in EoE between GNK and Sho - keeping in mind what we know about SOL's Doors of Guf.

[BrikHaus]

Fairly early in the thread, one of the members on here had someone, who wasn't familiar with NGE but knew Japanese well, watch that scene and give an opinion. The poster very specifically asked him what the "Chigau!" part was in reference to. The response was (paraphrased): "That is really not made clear. It could be either from the giant in front of him, or the previous line."

I agree. What he exactly refers to when he says, "chigau" isn't totally clear.

The idea that this was a tremendous goof doesn't make sense. The idea that SOMEONE didn't catch that is just practically impossible (I'd say nearly the same thing about the 15 monoliths at the lake).

To err is human, after all. ;)

Even by YOUR translation, it's not made clear if the "Wrong!" he's referring to is:

A) Him mistaking Lilith on the cross for Adam.
B) Humanity NOT having to be destroyed.

Kaworu says, "Must all who were born of Adam return to Adam? Even at the cost of destroying humanity?" This statement is followed by a pause. Then Kaworu narrows his eyes, like he's squinting to get a better look at Lilith and then declares, "No! This is... Lilith!" The flow of the scene makes me think that it suddenly dawned on him that this was actually Lilith and not Adam all along. Which could lend some credence to the plothole theory.

The line right before that is: "Must all who were born from Adam return to Adam, even at the cost of destroying humanity?"

So why can't "Wrong!" be in reference to THAT?

It could be. I'm not arguing it either way.

For further proof, the line about "So THAT'S what this is about, Lilim" very much seems to imply that he just *realized* something he didn't before: Likely about Seele's plans and reasons for sending him there. What else would he be talking about?

Well, he doesn't really stress that word THAT'S. Or was that your own emphasis? Anyway, I realize it doesn't change the meaning at all. But, like you said earlier, it is ambiguous.

Please keep in mind, I'm not arguing for either side here. The whole reason I even posted was to figure out where this came from:

Kaworu: "No, it's different." (the best translation)

That's all. I just wanted to see how that came into being, and hopefully figure out a way to reconcile this either way.

[Opteron-O3]

But why he thinks the lilim aren't the ones that deserves to die still gets me... I need to rewatch it again...

His relationship with Shinji made him realize how weak and fragile Lilim were. He ended up 'loving' them because they were so weak. I might suggest that Kaworu/Adam even pitied them because of their weakness. He likely decided that the Lilim needed the Earth more than he and the Angels did. In the 24' thread I even suggested that Kaworu was waiting for Shinji when he took Ni down to TD so he could make up his mind on the way.

Reichu's new theory actually proposes that during 3I GNK passes his kids onto to Sho. While this may sound strange, it actually makes a lot of sense if you review ep. 24' and the scene in EoE between GNK and Sho - keeping in mind what we know about SOL's Doors of Guf.

That's why... gee now it makes sense... thanks :)

Yes I read that whole thing (surprisingly) :shock:

[n00dle]

Man...I love ep 24'. Don't even wanna think how many times I've seen it.

[Ornette]

Fairly early in the thread, one of the members on here had someone, who wasn't familiar with NGE but knew Japanese well, watch that scene and give an opinion. The poster very specifically asked him what the "Chigau!" part was in reference to. The response was (paraphrased): "That is really not made clear. It could be either from the giant in front of him, or the previous line."

I think it was Reichu that first brought up "Chigau!" = "No, it's different (it is Lilith and not Adam)" to me when I was trying to formulate a fanwank about him referring to his previous line of reasoning and not what's actually in front of him. After her post, I went to my friend rockthing (the same guy who helped with a prelim translation of the CI, who went to school for Japanese and has been living there for over a decade) about that line. Essentially, what I wanted to get at was that it was at least possible that Kaworu was saying something along the lines of "No, it's different (I was wrong about the Lilim, because this is Liltih)".

[BrikHaus]

Essentially, what I wanted to get at was that it was at least possible that Kaworu was saying something along the lines of "No, it's different (I was wrong about the Lilim, because this is Liltih)".

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you. Of course, I still wonder about it. "Chigau" can also mean "different" or "disagree." However, simply translating it as "No" as ADV did, seems to make the most sense to me, given the way the line is delivered, and the generally ambiguous nature of the Japanese language. I get the creeping suspicion that translating it as "No, it's different, this is... Lilith" instead of "No. This is... Lilith" is just a way to find a translation that fits the theory rather than finding the most accurate translation. I'm not suggesting any massive fanwank conspiracy here, but just that overly zealous fans who were earnestly trying to figure this out came up with the loosest working interpretation that they could.

[Ornette]

I didn't mean to make it sound like we were translating it as "No, it's different", simply that I was originally going straight off of ADV's translation, which was just "No" and Reichu pointed out to me that "Chigau" = "a negative with connotations of disagreement", which lead me to contact my friend in Japan because it was messing up my fanwank.

[Eva Yojimbo]

<snip>

Thanks Ornette. I couldn't remember who said that (that was a LONG friggin' thread. ).

To err is human, after all. ;)

Very true. But just consider how many humans worked on this project. For one to err is very possible: that's why in any production like this they have several (hundreds?) of people all working together to keep things consistent as best as possible. Now consider the fact they went back and did the DCs with really no pressure on them to finish (like the original last several episodes), and the idea that:

A) Nodoby remembered Kaworu's big revelation in the originals.
B) Nobody noticed that when Seele told Kaworu where Adam was, this would interfere with A (with him mistaking Lilith for Adam).

The idea that NOBODY, out of the great many people who worked on it, caught this, is just unbelievable to me.

Kaworu says, "Must all who were born of Adam return to Adam? Even at the cost of destroying humanity?" This statement is followed by a pause. Then Kaworu narrows his eyes, like he's squinting to get a better look at Lilith and then declares, "No! This is... Lilith!" The flow of the scene makes me think that it suddenly dawned on him that this was actually Lilith and not Adam all along. Which could lend some credence to the plothole theory.

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. But I think many would disagree on exactly what Kaworu is realizing there. If you watch the entirety of 24' and just focus on Kaworu's statements and monologues (especially), you'll notice he's very much having trouble with the idea that what he's going to do will destroy humanity. So to me, his big revelation would make more sense if it had to do with him realizing he wasn't supposed to destroy humanity (or doesn't have to, if he chooses).

Well, he doesn't really stress that word THAT'S. Or was that your own emphasis? Anyway, I realize it doesn't change the meaning at all. But, like you said earlier, it is ambiguous.

Yes, my emphasis. Because what is "that" referring to? To me, it only makes sense if "that" is referrencing Seele's ultimate plan.

Please keep in mind, I'm not arguing for either side here. The whole reason I even posted was to figure out where this came from:

Kaworu: "No, it's different." (the best translation)

That's all. I just wanted to see how that came into being, and hopefully figure out a way to reconcile this either way.

It came up in the plothole thread about "chigau" meaning "to differ from". I know barely nothing of Japanese, so I'm not commenting on which is right.

[Scarecrow]

Obviously not been around as long as everyone here but I'd like to wear my academic hat and at leats offer the wya I always saw it.

It seems to me that SEELE and Kaworu have little love or trust in each other. From the discussion they have by the lake I got that SEELE had told Kaworu that they want the Angels to win. They believe that Lillith is false and that Kaworu and the Angels deserve the world. They helpfully tell him where Adam's body is and send him on his way.

In reality they want him destroyed so they can cause Third Impact themselves and have sent him there to die.

Kaworu is smart and probably doesn't trust them. All the Angels seem to be heading for Terminal Dogma, after Adam... perhaps they sense the power there? For whatever reason, that seems to be the Angels goal... so I assume that's where Kaworu heads as well.

He's told by SEELE that Adam is with Gendo, but then he has no reason to trust them, and for good reason. I have always assumed that he does believe that it's Adam in Terminal Dogma and IS surprised to find it isn't. At the same time he also gets confirmation that SEELE does want him dead and that they plan to use Lillith to do their own Third Impact hence the "that's what this is all about" line.

I guess I'm a big fan of double crosses and double bluffs and always looked at this episode as a game being played between Kaworu and SEELE, with NERV in the middle.


- Scarecrow

[Eva Yojimbo]

Scarecrow, your theory is very close to the final one I came to. The difference being in my version I never came to a solid theory explaining why Kaworu betrayed Seele and went to TD.

The problem with Kaworu going to TD is: What's leading him there? You mention many of the Angels were going there, but what's drawing them? Lilith's "soul" is in Rei, Adam's "soul" is in Kaworu. So it seems strange to me that Angels/Kaworu are drawn to essentially the empty vessels/bodies of the two SOLs. However, if we are to speculate that perhaps SOL bodies are special in some way, perhaps the Angels and Kaworu COULD sense them, but didn't know which one it was.

This still doesn't explain though why Kaworu would go to TD. If other angels could sense Adam's body, it makes sense that Kaworu could sense *both* bodies once inside Nerv (the one in Gendo's hand and the one in TD). Why go to TD? Someone proposed that there was something down there he needed to rebirth the angels. IOW, something special about TD's nature with it being related to the Moons.

However, I am a pretty firm believer that Seele lied to Kaworu in some way. What their ultimate goal was, I'm still not sure. It's possible they just wanted Kaworu destroyed, but as mentioned in the other thread: wouldn't there have been an easier way? One theory is that Seele wanted Shinji to destroy Kaworu to help his destrudo manifest in EoE to initiate 3I (though that theory sounds a bit convoluted, it makes some sense).

[Scarecrow]

Not sure there WAS an easier way, really.

His AT Field was incredibly powerful, I doubt anything SEELE could have done would penetrate it. They needed the Eva's to destroy Kaworu... and even then would it be that easy? He allowed himself to be destroyed in the end.

In pure speculation you could suggest that Kaworu suspected they wanted him dead. And sending him after Gendo, the head guy of NERV is surely a sure fire way to get him in the firing line. SEELE would have little to lose really. Is Kaworu believes them and goes after Gendo then he reveals himself and makes himself a prime target... if he doesn't and goes to Terminal Dogma there's no risk of him causing Third Impact.


- Scarecrow

[Ornette]

Sending him after Gendo, and having Gendo somehow dispatched (they didn't need him after Kaworu anyways) would surely be something in favor of Seele. Also, in ep24', Seele seems kinda miffed that Kaworu took Eva-02 and headed down to TD.

ALSO, THIS IS WRONG TOPIC: further discussion should really go into this monster thread, as it seems a trend has started where the matter at hand is ep24' and not so much Eva being pretentiously deep:
http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2095

[Eva Yojimbo]

I agree with Ornette. Can someone snip the 24' material in this thread and add it to the other?

[n00dle]

Eh, I agree I guess. Bottom line, NGE is not pretentiously deep. There are many things that are so *coughNumber23cough*. Eva isn't one of them. Whether planned from the start, or added on later in the series, the depth is there, and it doesn't feel forced imo. Just because a certain element may not have been planned from episode 1, adding it later and tying it into earlier elements doesn't make it any less deep. The Eva's themselves are really the best example. When the show started the creators themselves didn't really know what the hell the Eva's were. In fact, they may have started as giant robots. But at some point they were changed to enslaved humans. And Shinji's mom was certainly there from the start, but her actually being Eva-01 was probably added later.

In some ways it's harder to tie plot points together after the fact, rather then simply planning out a complex story beforehand. You have to take into account EVERYTHING you've done up to that point, and make sure whatever you add, whatever happens, what characters say, and so on, fits with what came before.

[NAveryW]

How many big budget movies can you name that weren't made with money in mind?

I can only name two, and those would be the Ghost in the Shell movies.

[Trigger's Elysium]

Yeah so i'm going to give this thread some necro loving

Anyway. So I was arguing with some dudes and Eva came up, and these guys are pretty big Eva haters. Of course, it's like 1:30 in the morning and seeing as I haven't watched the series in a while I realized I was walking into an Eva debate without a goddamn clue what I was talking about, and they seem to have relavence to my old topic. So i'll let the smart people do the thinking for me.

Anyway...the argument against Eva is that it's pretentious, obviously. But he says it's because that even though Eva's religious symbolism is pedantic, everything else is too because it's static and doesn't go anywhere. The allegory you find here and there, does that really mean anything for an anime primarily focused on the psyches of it's characters? "nothing it tries to say has any meaning"

Yeah...