Should I try to finish NGE, or will it just piss me off?

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Postby Kestrellius » Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:16 pm

...I really need to learn that trying to talk about things this personal in a venue like this is just a bad idea. I mean all I'm really doing is opening myself up to ridicule...

Still, maybe it was necessary. I did get the information I needed.

And so I watched episode 24 and EoE. It was...kind of underwhelming, really. Turns out I'd already seen most of it in some form or another. Still, it wasn't anywhere near as unpleasant or cruel as I'd expected. Mostly because the plot is basically just "Rei shows up and fixes everything".

Oh, and the non-character stuff was gold, which is actually why I watch this series in the first place, for those who were wondering. I'm just a sucker for big complicated events with pretentious names.

Although I don't fully get how TI went down. I thought it was the event that took place when Adam and Lilith, or their derivatives, were forced to merge. But if that's the case, why did it originally start with the MP Evas and Shinji? That was all just Adamic stuff, right? Oh, right, 01 came from Lilith, so I guess that works.

Still, why were Gendo and SEELE so...unsurprised about each others' scenarios occurring? That is, was SEELE expecting GNR to happen?

Basically it seems like two Third Impact events happened simultaneously: the harpies merging with Unit-01, and Gendo!Adam merging with Rei. Were they the same event, or unconnected?

Anyway. EoTV next, and then Rebuild. Really not looking forward to 3.0, though.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:25 pm

My attempt to sort the whole mess out:

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/14932/Impact-Events-and-the-People-Who-Drive-Them/

It's not canon by any means, but it has the virtue of being self-consistent. It addresses the questions you raise here.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby unz » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:31 am

Argh superwot.
Wonder where we differ but Idk, nobody pretends characters and stuff are original, overall the tv series proven you don't have to be lazy in developing things.

How does Rei fix anything when you get a projection of Shinji's mind into the very same world? It's a nightmare overwhelming then thin good the ending has.

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Postby Kestrellius » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:05 pm

...wha?

To what I understand, though: Rei fixes things by existing, and not being an asshole. Yeah, it's weird and often horrifying, but that's par for the course when you're dealing with an eldritch abomination.

Admittedly, dumping the reins on Shinji, who was basically a walking corpse at this point, was somewhere between a really bad idea and a total dick move -- I don't see why she couldn't have just taken care of it herself; maybe Rei's desire to follow orders carried through to Lilith? -- but I guess it worked out in the end.

Although it does annoy me that the bad guy won. I think I'm going to have to develop a headcanon wherein after everyone comes back, Yui is shot down and put on trial for war crimes. Well, not war crimes; there wasn't really a war, but...crimes.
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:08 pm

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:I think I'm going to have to develop a headcanon wherein after everyone comes back, Yui is shot down and put on trial for war crimes. Well, not war crimes; there wasn't really a war, but...crimes.


That's.........not how headcannons work
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:15 pm

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:To what I understand, though: Rei fixes things by existing, and not being an asshole. Yeah, it's weird and often horrifying, but that's par for the course when you're dealing with an eldritch abomination.


Rei did not fix things. Rei is the reason human civilization as we know it is effectively destroyed by the end of EoE. Her "fix" gave humans the chance to come back, but that hardly makes up for the damage she caused in the process.

Although it does annoy me that the bad guy won. I think I'm going to have to develop a headcanon wherein after everyone comes back, Yui is shot down and put on trial for war crimes. Well, not war crimes; there wasn't really a war, but...crimes.


The bad guys are Seele and Gendo, and they did not get what they wanted (and thus did not "win"). Yui was never a bad guy. Yui's only "crime" was getting stuck in an Eva, and even now it's not clear whether she really wanted that all along or only did it to foil Seele's plans (or perhaps even for Shinji's sake, as her plan did ultimately remove/render inert all FAR tech on Earth).

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:That's.........not how headcannons work


Well, yes, but he said "headcanon", not "headcannon". I have no idea how the latter would work in any event.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:18 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Well, yes, but he said "headcanon", not "headcannon". I have no idea how the latter would work in any event.


:headdesk:
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Postby pwhodges » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:24 pm

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:I think I'm going to have to develop a headcanon wherein after everyone comes back,

That's already provided for at the end of EoE.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:"[...] headcannon". I have no idea how the latter would work in any event.

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Postby NemZ » Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:45 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Rei did not fix things. Rei is the reason human civilization as we know it is effectively destroyed by the end of EoE.


Rei attempted to fix humanity, not their stuff. Debatable how that turned out.

Yui was never a bad guy.


Also highly debatable.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:49 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Rei attempted to fix humanity, not their stuff. Debatable how that turned out.


The first is debatable, too. All she did was sort out the souls and say "it's your problem now." It's only a 'fix' in that she undid a problem she herself created, and only partway at that.

Also highly debatable.


In the absence of evidence to the contrary calling her a villain doesn't make any sense. We have to show that she actually did something. Getting sucked into an Eva isn't all that villainous, and everything that happened after was on Gendo and Seele, not her. So, what's left to debate?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:01 pm

She was kind of a shitty parent, though-- and there's not much way of getting around that! Wasn't there also that whole "she let Asuka die" tangent from a while back?

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:05 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:She was kind of a shitty parent, though-- and there's not much way of getting around that! Wasn't there also that whole "she let Asuka die" tangent from a while back?


On the contrary, while she was alive she appears to have been an excellent parent. Jumping into the Eva was bad for Shinji, no doubt, but what was the alternative? If Seele had their way where would Shinji be then?

As to Asuka, that whole situation is nothing but speculation. Maybe she just wanted Kyoko out of the way, but maybe she wanted to be sure Kyoko's soul would be released and would have a chance to come back later. And both of those options assume she knew what was going on, which is anything but a given (I think she did, but we can't assume as much).
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:14 pm

Bringing your child to the experiment where you will get absorbed into an Evangelion (and planned on such an event happening) isn't something I'd generally define as good parenting; neither is leaving behind your child on a post 3I planet while you go drift about in space.

Look, I'm not firmly planted in the "Yui is an evil bitch" camp. At the same time, though, there are actions she takes in the series that are worthy of scrutinization.

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:20 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:Bringing your child to the experiment where you will get absorbed into an Evangelion (and planned on such an event happening) isn't something I'd generally define as good parenting; neither is leaving behind your child on a post 3I planet while you go drift about in space.


Sure, but OTOH if you assume (correctly, it seems) that your child is too young to remember and/or be affected by the experiment in question, and if you leave Earth to ensure that the giant human cyborg thing that's been causing him so much pain can never do so again (and coincidentally won't be used as a WMD by whatever powers show up after 3I), things look very different.

Look, I'm not firmly planted in the "Yui is an evil bitch" camp. At the same time, though, there are actions she takes in the series that are worthy of scrutinization.


Sure. But at the same time, blithely saying she's a villain, or that she should be prosecuted for war crimes (or whatever) is a bridge too far. Depending on her motivations some of her actions might be morally questionable, but the problem is that we don't really know what those motivations are. That means that this, like so many things in Eva, remains an unanswered question.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:41 pm

Judgements about Yui's actions from a moral or ethical standpoint aside, I agree with you that it's too much to call her a villain or say that she should be prosecuted for war crimes or whatnot. The rest of it is a debate for another time and place, I think. (And certainly not this thread!)

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Postby unz » Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:43 pm

Rei did not attempt to fix things in EoE, yui explains Shinji her function "this Rei does this" and Shinji is introduced to a new world, yadayada ensues and instrumentality ends leaving a nightmarish world to live through that could be very well a projection of Shinji's mind but it's still what's left of his wish. It's not really a matter of interpretation as much as straight observation (like most issues in the thread tbh;/).
Hate to sound like an ass but stick to the writing and find out about Rei's wish to return to nothingness, she's not supposed to exist and megarei dies in the present time, her role after merging was that of a "missing piece" kept from humans who otherwise turn into lcl. Even before that there are more reis.

About kyoko etc I never thought about that I was busy enjoying what could be the best evangelion fight with commentary and dysfunctional stuff kept at bay for the most part.

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Postby Kestrellius » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:13 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Rei is the reason human civilization as we know it is effectively destroyed by the end of EoE.


exactly

No but seriously, what I actually meant by "everything" was "Shinji's mental state", since that's sort of the focus of the story. I probably should have specified that, though.

I dislike Yui so strongly because a: the narrative doesn't appear to be cognizant of any of the horrible things she did, and b: unlike everybody else, she doesn't seem to have been under any duress whatsoever. Even SEELE are (IIRC) described as "frightened old men". And trust me, sufficient fear can make just about anything seem reasonable. But no, Yui just up and decided she wanted to float in space one day, and abandoned her family for it. I mean, even so, all she had to do was inform Gendo. And/or take him and Shinji along into the Eva.

It's just...I see it as a matter of agency. Yui started a family. She went into that intentionally, with (presumably) full understanding of what it would entail. You don't get to abandon that halfway through. You don't get to break your promises like that. Not unless you have an exceptionally good reason, and Yui's insane pipe dream doesn't qualify.

Also, is there a reason nobody just, you know, told the government that a crazy doomsday cult was trying to turn everyone into Tang? I don't have a whole lot of confidence in government, but they know how to deal with this sort of thing. I assume it was some combination of the fact that nobody who knew about it was in a position to tell, and fear of SEELE's influence?

Actually this ties into some of my complaints about NGE's sense of scale, or lack thereof. Should I make another thread regarding that, or do you guys not want to hear about it?
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:38 pm

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:No but seriously, what I actually meant by "everything" was "Shinji's mental state", since that's sort of the focus of the story. I probably should have specified that, though.


Probably, since that's all she (sorta) fixed.

I dislike Yui so strongly because a: the narrative doesn't appear to be cognizant of any of the horrible things she did,


Such as?

It's just...I see it as a matter of agency. Yui started a family. She went into that intentionally, with (presumably) full understanding of what it would entail. You don't get to abandon that halfway through.


You do when a bunch of grumpy old men are bent on ending humanity as we know it and ensuring your son has no future to speak of. Between "oh hey, Seele are planning to end the world, guess I should do something about that" and "oh hey, I'm in a giant robot, if I stick around some dumb fuck will try to use it to be a dick, and he'll force Shinji to go along with him. How 'bout I deny them all the opportunity and give my son a shot at a normal (lol) life in the process?" I'm hard pressed to give her too hard a time.

Also, lol at my being a Yui apologist. I used to be on the other side of the fence.

You don't get to break your promises like that. Not unless you have an exceptionally good reason, and Yui's insane pipe dream doesn't qualify.


See above. Yui was not acting in a vacuum.

Also, is there a reason nobody just, you know, told the government that a crazy doomsday cult was trying to turn everyone into Tang?


Said cult was pulling the strings, so that might have had something to do with it.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby unz » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:39 pm

Yui figured the god seele wanted to create would feel alone and thus did what she did.
As premise it's bonkers but so is everything about the mecha genre. Which is only a fundament to evangelion and not what ultimately the show is about.
Actually it sticks to its themes and narrative after inspection.

" Probably, since that's all she (sorta) fixed."
Guys, megarei killed herself (according to yui and Rei characters functions). They all had a chat and Shinji took things in charge deciding to stop instrumentality which required Rei's death (sort of since that goes for the present). I don't remember what shinji01 did other than popping out of an eye and bending the lance but Shinji has merits, which is not to say Rei doesn't matter at all since she's his first love and the most powerful being around at the same time.

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Postby NemZ » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:50 pm

This is too much of a cross-posting mess to be worth trying to split up cleanly, but these unrelated tangents need to stop.
If you want to continue arguing on the subjects then Yui stuff goes here and Rei stuff goes here.
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