Should I try to finish NGE, or will it just piss me off?

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Should I try to finish NGE, or will it just piss me off?

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Postby Kestrellius » Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:12 pm

Warning: this is going to be long-winded, probably kind of ranty, and quite possibly ill-informed. For the record, I'm new here. Oh, and I'm putting this here to be on the safe side; if it's better suited to Discussion or somewhere else, please feel free to move it. ...not that I could stop you, but.

Anyway.

You know, I don't really get why all the people who think Shinji is a little bitch who just needs to grow up dislike NGE. See, as far as I can tell, the show seems to agree with them.

Now, I'm currently partway through...episode 23? 24? It's the Armisael one. I want to watch the rest of the series, EoE, and Rebuild, because I want to have a semi-complete knowledge base where the show is concerned -- I'm considering writing a fanfic, among other things, and I can't really do that until I know what I'm talking about. However, I'd rather not spend a week and a half fuming and/or depressed; I have enough mental health issues as it is.

To some extent, I really like Eva. It has an impeccable sense of style. Glorious eldritch abominations, gorgeous mech designs, and mind screw on a cosmic scale. Plus, the idea of the AT Field is an excellent one, in terms of how it's used.

Unfortunately, the show kind of sabotages its own narrative in service of pushing an agenda. I'm not fond of that at the best of times, but I especially despise it when the message in question is as twisted as this one is.

NGE is an exercise in psychologically torturing Shinji Ikari over an extended period. He's traumatized by his insane mother, neglected by his father, then placed in an incomprehensible situation and emotionally blackmailed into placing himself in harm's way. Probably against his better judgement, he pilots Unit-01 against Sachiel in order to help someone vulnerable. (As a side note: I've heard it argued that Shinji's valor here isn't valid because he pilots in order to gain approval. But this isn't true: when Gendo tries to motivate him based on that, Shinji steadfastly refuses. It's only when Rei is brought in that he agrees to help -- Shinji pilots to help others.) When he tries to get out of the situation after the immediate crisis has ended, his guardian basically gaslights him, giving him contradictory advice and sharply reprimanding him when he questions her.

And that's pretty much the pattern. He proceeds to get physically and verbally abused by his fellow pilot, and then, just when it seems things might be looking up, the combination of the Angel Bardiel and his father results in a serious injury to one of the only people who's ever shown him anything but contempt. Once again, he tries to escape, but his compassion forces his hand when Zeruel attacks. (And once again, the psychological abuse is appalling, in terms of castigating Shinji for things he was ordered to do. It's even more appalling that the narrative seems to be endorsing it, but I'll get to that.)

Now, I imagine you guys have heard all this before. And to be honest, I'm mostly going over it just to get my thoughts straight. This is a big tangly issue, and I'm not sure from what direction to approach it.

Anyway, I have a reasonably good idea of how this all ends. I know about Congratulations, and I have a pretty decent understanding of how EoE plays out.

The problem is that in the end, Shinji's "growth" as a character appears to amount to accepting that his abusers were right to attack him, and that he has no right to complain. That all his problems occurred because he failed to love himself enough, and he needs to learn that his only purpose in life is to be useful to the species that has abused him all his life.

That's some fucking bullshit.

(...I didn't notice anything about profanity in the rules. I hope it's not frowned upon here.)

First of all, that's just not how the human mind works at all. This is pseudoFreudian pop-psychology crap. Admittedly, I'm far from an expert, but I know enough to be aware that psychological problems don't boil down to a single cause like that, and that if you're surrounded by dysfunctional assholes and fighting a meaningless war against eldritch abominations at fourteen, loving yourself more will not help. That kind of situation is just beyond human tolerance levels, and that's not Shinji's fault. He could do virtually anything, and I wouldn't be able to blame him, because this is more than enough to just break anyone. (Notably, I don't hate Asuka even for being abusive, not anymore. However, I again wouldn't blame Shinji for hating her, because he's not privy to the same information we are.)

Now, I'm not just ranting here. I actually have some questions. See, I've read these series of quotes from EoE and other things (to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, one of them is Rei asking Shinji "what his hand is for"), and how awful they are depends heavily on context.

It's basically people spouting a bunch of sick bullshit at Shinji, presumably in the name of psychology. The question here is whether these people are the actual characters, or projections of Shinji's mind. If it's really them, then...well, for one thing, it's character assassination in some cases, because Rei's not a horrible person, but it also implies that this is what Anno thinks. And in that case, the same question applies on a larger scale.

Is NGE's psychological torture porn actually Anno beating himself up through an elaborate self-insert exercise via Shinji, or just him gleefully making a character suffer? Because if it's the former, then I get it, and I can stomach it. It's depressing, but it makes sense. If it's the latter? If Shinji represents the people who don't live up to Anno's standards of what a human being should be, i.e. otaku? Well, then, Anno's just an awful person, and I don't want to be anywhere near this.

There's a lot more to this, but I'm tired now. I'm not even actually sure how coherent this is, because working through this is a confusing process even for me, but I'm gonna post it and hope for the best.

Thanks for any insight you guys can provide.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:39 pm

There's a lot going on here and it's a bit hard to answer it in a coherent way, but here's the short version:

1) Yes, you should finish watching it. I'm assuming you're watching the DC versions, so do EoE first, then the original ending to end on a positive note. just know however that there is no universal agreement on how these two endings are meant to interact, if at all.

2) The only people really blaming Shinji are Asuka and Shinji himself. No it isn't his fault, but learning to not hate himself despite the situation he's been placed in would still be a step in the right direction.

3) It is the actual people, but I'm not sure what sort of messages you're reading out of context to come to these conclusions so it's impossible to answer specifically.

4) It's probably a mix of both Anno beating himself up and Otakudom in general, but his purpose in doing so is to drive people towards a healthier state of mind. It's a sort of symbolic projection tough love thing. Arguably he failed utterly in the attempt.
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Postby Kestrellius » Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:50 pm

Most of the quotes I'm referring to can be found here: [url]http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0026890/quotes[/url]

Eva kind of depresses me as a work of fiction, because it's...it's like it's an extremely in-depth look at a really shallow concept. For all its nuances, human interaction isn't that meaningful a topic, particularly when viewed through what appears to be such a poor understanding of psychology, and to build such a fascinating universe and then just abandon it for the sake of preaching about pop psychology feels like a waste. And the entire philosophy behind it bothers me, because it's basically just existential wank -- it's asserting that the human race matters, just because. Essentially I'm an anti-humanist, and NGE annoys me on those grounds.[/url]
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Postby Sachi » Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:36 pm

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:For all its nuances, human interaction isn't that meaningful a topic

I feel like many people here would strongly disagree with this sentiment, and some might even going as far to say that human interaction is the most meaningful topic there is to explore.

I mean, if human interaction isn't meaningful, then I don't know what would be.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:39 pm

If human interaction isn't meaningful, then this forum is useless.

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Postby Kestrellius » Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:57 pm

Yeah, I suppose I probably shouldn't have said that. It opens a can of worms that's just going to seem odd to anyone not familiar with me, i.e. all of you.

I mean, I could try to explain what I mean, but it would take ages. And I just tried to, and ended up with three paragraphs and forgot where I was going. So never mind.

tl;dr: humans and their material objectives bore me.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:05 pm

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:tl;dr: humans and their material objectives bore me.


Hmm. With a line like that you might just really like EoTV if you view it in the right frame of mind.

Watch it as I said first, then (and only then) give this thread a read.
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Postby Kestrellius » Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:33 pm

Oh, yeah: thanks for the suggestion of watching EoE, then EoTV. I hadn't actually considered that, and it's a very good idea.

Also, I've realized I was very unclear originally. (And yes I recognize the irony of failing to properly communicate the concept that human communication isn't a topic worth excessive examination.)

What I mean is that human interaction is not inherently meaningful. This is because as a result of biological programming, the ultimate objective of Joe Human is "survive and reproduce". This is a meaningless objective that accomplishes nothing of direct value, and any abilities Joe Human possesses, such as interaction, exist primarily to serve that goal. So, in and of itself, human interaction is just a lot of brain chemistry and the like designed to keep the species alive.

But every once and a while, you'll get something anomalous, something that doesn't help the species. Like fiction, or art. To me, this suggests that it's significant. I don't think anything exists without reason, so if fiction has no apparent reason to exist, the cause must be a deeper one. With that as a premise, human interaction regarding fiction is very meaningful indeed, because it serves a valuable purpose. But you're not going to find a lot of meaning within the mechanics of interaction itself, as it seems NGE tries to. It's just a means to an end.

Now, I'm staking the meaning of my existence on the notion that fiction is the means by which reality propagates, and that by writing, we become gods. I could very well be wrong about that, but at least this way I have a shot at doing something more significant than creating a couple extra humans to feed into the grinder.

You know what, I'm proud of this post. I finally managed to express this concept in a coherent fashion.

...I think.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:59 pm

Finish the series and draw your conclusions about the characters later would be my advice. The ending of the show, whichever one you watch, is different enough than the earlier episodes that I firmly believe it is worth watching Evangelion to its end.

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Re: Should I try to finish NGE, or will it just piss me off?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:07 am

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:Now, I'm currently partway through...episode 23? 24? It's the Armisael one.
That'd be 23.

Unfortunately, the show kind of sabotages its own narrative in service of pushing an agenda ... NGE is an exercise in psychologically torturing Shinji Ikari over an extended period.

It's a vehicle for Hideaki Anno's self-directed art therapy for his own depression, with Shinji being his own self-insert character. The relatively optimistic -- or at least up-beat -- TV ending came when he was in comparative remission, to be followed by a crash, brought on by the production pressures of the series (we nearly got a final episode in which he was filmed apologizing for the trainwreck) that brought us the much more down-beat movie ending.

An issue at the heart of Anno's self-loathing was the whole otaku thing -- NGE was at once a reaction against what he saw as the vanishing off into obsession, and an attempt to convert the entire nation into otaku so it would not be a social stigma.

Personally, having watched the on-air series first, as that was all that was available at the time, I just considered Shinji a harmless nebbish; for the last third I'd latched on to Asuka as my own identification character, and he was just there.
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Re: Should I try to finish NGE, or will it just piss me off?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:53 am

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:it also implies that this is what Anno thinks.

However, Anno has repeatedly made it clear that it is up to the viewer to find their own meaning in it, and that he is not going to provide any further guidance.

Certainly the best way to get a better understanding of a bunch of quotes is to watch the films they came from so that you can consider them in their complete context.

But I'm just wondering why, if you find human interaction meaningless, you are so concerned about this story of it.
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Postby NemZ » Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:51 am

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:But every once and a while, you'll get something anomalous, something that doesn't help the species. Like fiction, or art.


Sorry to burst your bubble but providing entertainment and attracting attention is very much a part of that whole "earn a living and attract a mate" thing, man.
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Postby Sachi » Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:29 am

Art can also have powerful political and cultural influence for society, and has been every bit as large a factor in humanity's development as technology and religion has been.
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Postby Kestrellius » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:12 am

Well, it's be an artist in the hope that it'll turn out to mean something or commit suicide, 'cause I ain't putting up with this shit if there's no point.
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Postby pwhodges » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:52 am

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:I ain't putting up with this shit if there's no point.

It's up to you to find the point for you. No one else can tell that there is or isn't a point (though some may try if they're devoutly religious) - but the continued existence of humanity suggests that most people do find some point in it.
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Postby Kestrellius » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:03 pm

Well that's the thing. For most people, the point is to survive and reproduce. That's enough for them, because it's what they're programmed to do. But I don't have those objectives. From a human standpoint, I'm defective -- the mid-level directives are just...missing. I have the basic needs -- a compulsion to eat, sleep, et cetera -- but the standard human long-term goals aren't there.

Which means you're quite right. It's up to me. And really, at the end of the day my goal is to determine who created this situation, and why. Unfortunately, I have no apparent means of making progress on that goal. The closest thing I have to a lead is a two-thousand-plus year old document purported to be of divine origin, and while I think it probably is of divine origin, it's still not particularly clear or helpful.

In the meantime, I'm going to do what I can to create less screwed-up and pointless environments for the people I can help -- fictional characters.
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Postby unz » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:30 pm

First off the AT Field idea isn't that great, it works as a metaphor to frames being broken by hands (Shinji's regular "attack") to form a connection but it slows combat down. Eva features themes to justify this but energy shields would be stupid in any other thing especially given eva's shooter arena setup.
Also the thing about loving himself and stuff is definitely not bull out of the blue and actually argued through the show without you having to pick up books, the humanistic/self improvement psychology part is not what directs the structure of the whole thing, it's actually required from the narrative which seeks to prove a non Japanese origin myth wrong by denying the end of days predicted from such myth. Who gives whatever if being anti humanist is a thing? Eva is still born to make meta commentary.
The cyberpunk part requires Shinji to connect to the mechanical otherness that is eva and the mother to actually give birth to a weapon, since all weapons in eva come from the minds of females, and the first episode features Shinji ripping a rib off like a twisted eve-origin thing to stab a core exposing Shinji's issues with others he doesn't understand, being an inclusive teen and 14 old, Shinji's arc couldn't end any other way than realizing he's afraid of the Shinji in others' mind.
There's also a whole lot of abusiveness but it's actually a whole lot of grey, you think as Misato as an extension of Gendo but reasons are explored extensively and her arc ends like her father's as a tragic hero - like anyone in eva. And everything in it goes for revisionism of the formulaic mecha bullshit, you can read almost everything as black comedy, but it would stink as comedy and instead it's satire humanizing characters through their flaws./rubbish end of post
Last edited by unz on Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:40 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:38 pm

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:Well that's the thing. For most people, the point is to survive and reproduce.

Survival (of the species) is not just a matter of reproduction. If that were all, I would have had no reason to continue after the age of twentyfive. But look! Here I am, still going strong! You see, anything that contributes to society (real, as well as fictional) and strengthens it in some way is contributing to the survival of humanity by improving the environment it lives in. (And that's leaving aside the help I can provide, for instance, in the upbringing of my grandchildren and great grandchildren.)

So stop thinking about just your own genes, look out of the window and see the myriads of other things you could do or help with which contribute to a better future for everyone.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:18 pm

pwhodges, I agree with that. I've lived a celibate life, but I have inspired hundreds of children in my community throughout the years with aspirations of creativity and healthy ways of thinking. I'm preparing for another short film, and a mother in my church offered to have her 5th grade daughter help me on production, and she's been very interested in video production and things like that. Sometimes I think it'd be nice to have children of my own, but at the same time I love the confidence other people have placed in me when it comes to helping them guide their own children.

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:41 pm

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:Well that's the thing. For most people, the point is to survive and reproduce. That's enough for them, because it's what they're programmed to do. But I don't have those objectives. From a human standpoint, I'm defective -- the mid-level directives are just...missing. I have the basic needs -- a compulsion to eat, sleep, et cetera -- but the standard human long-term goals aren't there.


Oh, good grief. I really hate this type of thinking. Look, at some point most people wind up thinking they're different or apart from everyone else, but that's just self-delusion. Whether or not you want kids is not the point -- some people do, some don't, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you want your life to be significant in the context of your community, same as everyone else. You want to feel like you matter, like there's some purpose to your life. In the strict sense, there isn't -- the universe doesn't care about us or our petty problems. But for us, as human beings, we can make our own meaning if we care to. We can choose to be a positive influence on the people around us, and in online communities, and so on and so forth. We just have to make the effort to do it.

So, stop talking about how defective you are and find something that works for you and just do it. You'll be a lot happier that way. Also, finish Eva, and try to watch it with an open mind. Your impressions so far don't really match up with those of people who've studied the show for any length of time, so you might want to re-evaluate your assumptions and came at the show from a fresh angle (getting past the "Shinji is abused" mindset, which assumes he has no particular agency of his own and isn't responsible for his own actions, would be a big help in this capacity).
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